Regarding Tyrion

[Regina]

Which isn't too likely. In GoT, the direwolves absoutely hated Tyrion. Dragons are animals too.

I'm not sure it follows that the dragons would dislike him just because the direwolves did. After all, the Starks disliked the Lannisters, and the wolves were mostly picking up on that vibe, imo.

I'm guessing Tyrion will be drunk, cranky and sarcastic with Dany...right up until he sees the dragons. He's going to be shocked sober, and fall in love with them immediately. Riding dragons was his childhood dream, after all. And the idea of returning to Westeros with dragons has got to have some serious appeal (wouldn't you want to sic Drogon on Cersei, lol?).

As others have stated, his dragon lore and saddle making ability will make him valuable to Dany. As could his small size, since I'm not sure if the dragons are going to be big enough for carrying large knights into battle just yet.

[Steel_Wind]

But why would Dany welcome Tyrion? The Lannisters are her enemy, she was raised hearing that over and over. And Ser Barristan isn't likely to make him welcome, either, considering that knight's enmity towards Joffrey and the Lions in general. I think it's more likely that Dany will throw him to the dragons--'eat,' she'll say--and that's when, gasp, the dragons will absoutely love him.

Which isn't too likely. In GoT, the direwolves absoutely hated Tyrion. Dragons are animals too.

Why would Dany welcome Tyrion? Is it not obvious to you how GRRM has set this up in the Court of the Queen Across the Water?

Everyone who serves Dany - every last one of them - is a lickspittle. They simply do not tell her the truth. And it is this appreciation for the Truth that will bring Dany to come to rely upon him.

Even Sir Baristan Selmy, who comes as close to truth as it gets, does not tell her the truth about her family, most especailly King Aerys. He tries to dress up her insane father's failings to not make him seem a monster.

And Aerys was a monster. Wholly and utterly. He was without a redeeming quality. "Aerys was mad and cruel and no one has ever denied that" says Brienne in SoS. But Selmy did.

Tyrion will do no so such thing. He will tell her her father was mad and that when his brother killed him - Aerys deserved it and he did the Seven Kingdoms a service. It was for that fundamental reason that Jaime's pardon by the new King could ever be remotely accepted by anyone in the Seven Kingdoms. No one blamed Jaime for killing the King - only that one of the Kingsguard would be the one to do it. If Eddard Stark or even Gregor Clagane had done it - they would not have been named "Kingslayer" - they would have been named "Hero."

She will be appalled and rant and rage and sentence him to death and almost do it - when Tyrion - ugly little dwarf that he is - will finally convince her thet he knows not only about Dragons - he knows about Lions and Wolves and Foxes. He knows *men* and like Ser Davos Seaworth service to Stanis - he will tell her the Truth.

Tyrion has been tailored from the very start of the series to take his role by using his greatest weapon - his wits.

Lord Tyrion Lannister will be the Hand of The Queen.

[Steel_Wind]

Viserys' death, for various reasons, didn't anger Dany all that much--she'd accepted, to some extent, the idea that he'd brought it on himself. However, Jaime Lannister's killing of Aerys _does_ piss her off quite a bit. So the two are hardly comparable.

They are, in fact, exactly the same. Except Viseryrs was Aerys without power. And when she comes to see it, she will know it to be true.

Nobody in her life has had the courage to tell her that her father was a monster who deserved the fate that was meted out to him.

Not even Selmy.

Tyrion will.

[A wilding]

Yes, but will Tyrion also tell Dany that her brother Rhaegar, her sister-in-law Elia, or her niece Rhaenys deserved what happened to them?

And does Barristan really not tell Dany the truth about Aerys?

[Lord Varys]

Daenerys actually stated in ACoK - when she heard about the death of the Usurper - that now everything has changed. The Usurper's dogs are now not necesssarily enemies of House Targaryen.

Surely, it would have been difficult for Dany to pardon Tywin or Eddard, but their children, who had nothing to do with the rebellion - a thing which was the making of Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon - are not to blame for it.

It's even possible that Jaime Lannister will be pardoned by Dany - as his murder of Aerys was a reasonable thing to do, after all, in that particular situation. Dany herself would have done such a thing, as she wants protect the smallfolk from harm, even in war.

Tyrion was never an enemy of House Targaryen. And he can be a great asset. I don't see any reason why he should not become Hand of the Queen. He would be of help preparing the invasion, he could help with the dragons, he could help with problems in Meereen, with the Qartheen, with the Dothraki.

In the end, it's possible that his reputation will make it difficult to treat with Westerosi lords, but that's a thing the Martells can do.

[Antonius Pius]

Daenerys actually stated in ACoK - when she heard about the death of the Usurper - that now everything has changed. The Usurper's dogs are now not necesssarily enemies of House Targaryen.

Surely, it would have been difficult for Dany to pardon Tywin or Eddard, but their children, who had nothing to do with the rebellion - a thing which was the making of Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon - are not to blame for it.

If it can be explained to Dany that Aerys had it coming, I'm sure she'll be able to forego her desire for vengeanve. Besides, all the guilty parties are already dead.

It's even possible that Jaime Lannister will be pardoned by Dany - as his murder of Aerys was a reasonable thing to do, after all, in that particular situation. Dany herself would have done such a thing, as she wants protect the smallfolk from harm, even in war.

Jaime killing Aerys was most definitely not a reasonable thing to do. He was a knight of the KG, and should have lain down his life to protect Aerys, not kill because he suffered a moodswing. If Jaime had not been present in the Red Keep when the Lannisters took it, or at the time Ned arrived, Aerys would still be dead, sure. But you can be damned sure he would have at least held a token trial, or executed him in the name of the new king. He even sits in judgement on the the deserter for the Night's Watch before he executes him, which IS reasonable, since desertion is only punishable by death.

Tyrion was never an enemy of House Targaryen. And he can be a great asset. I don't see any reason why he should not become Hand of the Queen. He would be of help preparing the invasion, he could help with the dragons, he could help with problems in Meereen, with the Qartheen, with the Dothraki.

His assets are not in doubt, it's Dany's willingness to use them, or to heed the Imp. I wonder why GRRM sent him out there if not to become part of Dany's court, but I think there will be some tests before she accepts him.

In the end, it's possible that his reputation will make it difficult to treat with Westerosi lords, but that's a thing the Martells can do.

This is a good point. Tyrion will not be very popular in Westeros. Unless the Cerse-fallout creates sympathy for him in an unexpected way. Don't know how, though.

Re: truth:

Barristan has not really been withholding the truth regarding Aerys. He does tell her he was mad, but he is making sure he doesn't go to far. After all, the concept is new to Dany, who perhaps chose to believe Viserys' tales that Aerys' madness was a tale devised by the Usurper's Dogs.

[Lord Varys]

If Jaime had not been present in the Red Keep when the Lannisters took it, or at the time Ned arrived, Aerys would still be dead, sure.

If Jaime hadn't killed Aerys II. and Lord Rossart, Aerys order to burn King's Landing down with his 'hidden fruits' would have been executed. Tywin, his host, Eddard and his host would have been killed - along with all the smallfolk of King's Landing, and the court in the Red Keep. Truly, there was a possibility that Aerys would have survived such an inferno (as his daughter did later), but all the other people just would have died.

As I understand it, Jaime killed Rossart, and then Aerys because of this order - he wanted to save the city, its people, and his father along with his army.

So his motive to forsake his oath is, in my opinion, not just understandable but the right thing to do in that particular situation. Maybe the White Bull, Selmy, Whent and noble Arthur Dayne would have burnt gladly beside Aerys and the city, but it would have been a foul and weak thing to let someone burn a whole city down.

[A wilding]

That is a false dichotomy though. He had middle paths between "killing Rossart, and then Aerys" and "letting someone burn a whole city down". And if he was so strongly motivated by the desire to save the city, why didn't he ensure that the other two pyromancers in the plot were caught and killed as soon as possible, and that the caches of wildfire were neutralised?

[Mezeh]

Surely, it would have been difficult for Dany to pardon Tywin or Eddard, but their children, who had nothing to do with the rebellion - a thing which was the making of Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon - are not to blame for it.

She most probably would think so thought her father thought differently. But Starks are in better position here since none of them was even born (Robb was an infant but he is dead now anyway) and none of the house members that participated in rebellion has survived. With Lannisters it will be much harder.

It's even possible that Jaime Lannister will be pardoned by Dany - as his murder of Aerys was a reasonable thing to do, after all, in that particular situation. Dany herself would have done such a thing, as she wants protect the smallfolk from harm, even in war.

Jaime has very little evidence to support his claim that he killed Aerys to save the city. Basically only finding hidden cache of “Greek fireâ€. But even so don’t forget that he could not justify himself. Not for killing but for not preventing another one. Remember Aerys ghost is not troubling him but Rhaegar’s is for not saving his family. Jaime was able to do that but he just sat on the throne after he killed the king.

Tyrion was never an enemy of House Targaryen. And he can be a great asset. I don't see any reason why he should not become Hand of the Queen. He would be of help preparing the invasion, he could help with the dragons, he could help with problems in Meereen, with the Qartheen, with the Dothraki.

He never was a personal enemy but he was a member of house Lannister that is surely an arch enemy of house Targarien.

In the end, it's possible that his reputation will make it difficult to treat with Westerosi lords, but that's a thing the Martells can do.

Westeros lords would treat with Dany and her dragons not with Tyrion.

Which isn't too likely. In GoT, the direwolves absoutely hated Tyrion. Dragons are animals too.

Actually they didn’t. They rather were afraid of him and tried to protect their masters but they didn’t harmed him. And not all of the wolves too Ghost was quite friendly to him after Tyrion befriended Jon.

Anyway direwolf reaction to Tyrion was unexpected and this could be the same with dragons.

And remember that direwlofs and dragons aren’t just animals but rather magical creatures.

[Barba]

While reading SSM few minuted ago, one thing just crossed my mind.

from SSM October 05, 2001 we learn that Arys and Tywin were friends in youth. Althrough they didn't like each other after, Aerys hoped that Tywin would help him in the time of need, but was wrong. Tywin betrayed him, and tywin's son, while being Knight of the Kingsguard, killed hom.

Now, I see no reason for Dany to trust Tyrion. He is smart and stuff, but she dosen't know that. All she knows is that he is Tywin's son, and brother to Jaime.

Would I trust that man. No. I'd make FOOL of him

Tyrion’s Tumbling

Submitted By: OkayPhil

I have one other small thing I wanted to ask if that's okay. I was re-reading GOT and I noticed that you had Tyrion doing flips and handstands at the feast at Winterfell and I was wondering if you had planned on giving him a "gymnasts" skills or a sort of circus midgets skills and then decided you didn't want that, because I don't ever remember him doing anything like that again in the series.

Well, the occasion did not call for it... but you may see some more along those lines in the new book.

Now from Tyrion 2 ADWD chapter, whenever Tyrion says or does something funny, those two guys from the Golden Company say that Griff will like him.

Maybe it will be Dany, maybe Young Griff, but do you think that Tyrion might be made A Fool in DWD. He is funny and a dwarf. He is perfect for the role

[Mezeh]

Aerys and Tywin never were friends. Aerys treated Tywin as very able annd valuable servant.

The guys you've mentioned aren't from Golden Company they are from Grif's company that is not the same and it was mentioned that Yong Grif would like Tyrion not the Grif himself. This is rather interesting since it could be a hint that yong Grif is more then he appears and it is important for Tyrion to be liked by him.

And Dany definitely would not make Tyrion a fool that would make fool of herself.

The real question how could she be persuaded to trust Tyrion enough to let him near her. IMHO the answer is quite obvious he will need a recommendation of the person she could trust much more. Grif obviously aka Jon Connington definitely could be such a person.

[Besselfunction]

I think Dany won't like Tyrion in the beginning and decide that he's going to be lunch for her dragons (which are imprisoned in the fighting pit and desperately need good food). Tyrion will then somehow manage to calm the two Dragons and thereby gain Dany's trust.

[Barba]

The guys you've mentioned aren't from Golden Company they are from Grif's company that is not the same and it was mentioned that Yong Grif would like Tyrion not the Grif himself. This is rather interesting since it could be a hint that yong Grif is more then he appears and it is important for Tyrion to be liked by him.

Isn't Young Griff leader of Golden Company? I always thought he was.

If he's not, do we know who is?

About Aerys and Tywin: They did know each other in youth, but it was not mentioned that they were friends. But later Aerys became jealous of how Tywin new how to do things right. That is when we have had Duskendale incident. It happened because Aerys wanted to prove he was able to do things right, like Tywin.

You say he treated Tywin like servant. I assume you think about that time when Tywin proposed Raegar and Cersei marriage, when Aerys said to Tywin that he considers him his servant. I always thought that sentence was proof of how Aerys was jealous.

[Stieglitz]

Isn't Young Griff leader of Golden Company? I always thought he was.

If he's not, do we know who is?

It is not known who the leader(s) of the Golden Company are.

As mentioned above Griff (Jon Connington) has his own company. As a friend of Rhaegar and Targ supporter ( I suppose he still supports the Targs - albeit Aerys outlawed him) he would not fit in well with the Golden Company which is formed by Blackfires and BF supporters who had to leave the 7 Kingdoms after the rebellion(s) and are therefore hostile to the Targs.

Young Grif might be Jon Connington's son or Spoiler: baby Aegon

it was mentioned that Yong Grif would like Tyrion

That's why I belief that Young Grif might be Tyrek. If Varys was behind Tyrek's disappearance, Tyrek might have been send in the same direction as Tyrion ending up at Grif group.

[cosnik]

just thought id add that Selmy has tried to talk to Danny about Aerys, she just did not feel ready for it. i dont have page numbers but im pretty positive it was Dannys last chapter in SOS. Two things i keep in mind when i read this series is every action has a reaction, and everything has some purpose in the grand scheme of the writing. Because Tyrion is coming from a reputable source(Ilyrio) i do not think he will be easily brushed off by Danny. She is young,but does have some wisdom, as her successes have shown. he will probably have to prove himself in some manner, but i believe she will quickly see the virtues of gaining tyrions support

[Mezeh]

I think Dany won't like Tyrion in the beginning and decide that he's going to be lunch for her dragons (which are imprisoned in the fighting pit and desperately need good food). Tyrion will then somehow manage to calm the two Dragons and thereby gain Dany's trust.

I thought about it too. It is possible that we will have a wolf situation in the first book in reverse in the case of dragons. Tyrion probably have something magical in him and dragons would cense it. Yet this wouldn’t be enough to gain Dany’s trust only enough to make her wonder and think.

On the other side I don’t think that Grif will allow any harm coming to Tyrion and this is a reason that Illirio sending Tyrion to Dany in Grif’s company.

Because Tyrion is coming from a reputable source(Ilyrio) i do not think he will be easily brushed off by Danny. She is young,but does have some wisdom, as her successes have shown. he will probably have to prove himself in some manner, but i believe she will quickly see the virtues of gaining tyrions support

Dany doesn’t really trust Illirio since she doesn’t know his motivation. Yet Grif’s (Jon Connington) presence and recommendation looks like a good guarantee that she will not try to feed Tyrion to her dragons or brush him away. For the rest I agree with you.

[Mezeh]

Isn't Young Griff leader of Golden Company? I always thought he was.

If he's not, do we know who is?

He is definitely not connected to GC. As it was already mentioned here Grif has his own company and by his concern he see GC as competitors though not necessary as enemy.

Then who is Young Grif?

I see two possibilities. First he could be just Jon Connington sin. There wasn’t a mention about Jon Connington married or have a children before his exile but he was in exile long enough to have a recently knighted son. In this case we will have a remaining question what makes Connington son so important that Illirio clearly shows concern about him and mention him several times.

The second possibility that he is really Aegon Targaryen that was stolen from KL just before it’s fall by Varys and given to Connington to raise. There are several arguments for this version.

1. It seems that Varys was always a Targ’s loyalist and he definitely had a possibility to exchange babies. The head of the baby that was killed in KG was completely smashed so it possible that there was another baby just fit by the age.

2. Connington certainly fit’s a Aegon mentor. He could hive him a proper education and he was Rhaegar close friend.

3. This could explain why Connington “diedâ€. There wasn’t obvious reason for Jon Connington to avoid any notice. Aegon could have been such a reason. Remember that Connington supposedly drunk himself to death within a year after his exile (by Jaime recollection) so the time of his “death†fits with time when Aegon could have arrived to free cities.

4. This could explain Illirio interest to Young Grif and his confidence about “three dragon headsâ€. This also would make clear why it is important for Tyrion to be liked by Young Grif.

5. The last thing - this will explain why Illirio cared so little about Viseris.

Of course he could be a fake Aegon as well but this will raise a question why Jon Connington would involve himself with impostor.

About Aerys and Tywin: They did know each other in youth, but it was not mentioned that they were friends. But later Aerys became jealous of how Tywin new how to do things right. That is when we have had Duskendale incident. It happened because Aerys wanted to prove he was able to do things right, like Tywin.

You say he treated Tywin like servant. I assume you think about that time when Tywin proposed Raegar and Cersei marriage, when Aerys said to Tywin that he considers him his servant. I always thought that sentence was proof of how Aerys was jealous.

You could be right but still there is no indication that they ever were friends. IMHO more likely they weren’t

[SpaceChampion]

And I would also think the site of Barriston the Bold would help recruit some Westerosi.

I've checked both barristanthebold.com and barristanselmy.com and can't find this "site" you speak of. Where do I sign up?

[thomaswhigham]

NOW NOW...dont bring Aerys into this....poor Aerys....he was drivin insane by the game of thrones...he never hurt any commoners, only lords...Actually he was probably driven insane by the brain mutation that was a resut of incest. As for Tyrion I think that Illyrio and Varys simply want him alive. Come what may. A live dwarf has more use than a dead one...And if varys really wanted danny alive why the helll would he ever tell the council where she was or that she had a baby

someone would have told the council eventually. the fact it was varys makes him valuable as always, and allows him to in some degree influence/observe/control the events which are the result of his information.

to be sure, varys can control things from afar, and knowing what the council plans regarding the act would make it easier to safeguard against those very same actions.

btw: varys is such a good manipulator that he has fooled idiots into thinking him honest because he never tells a lie directly. he is deceitful at so many times during the book... his entire persona is built around elaborate deceptions. he is trustworthy only insofar as one can accurately decipher what is meant by his words which, taken at face value, at best misrepresent vary's motivations and opinions, and at worse distort perception so as to be as effective as any lie.

[Ser Greguh]

I suddenly realized why the words "he drank his way across the Narrow Sea" were stuck in my head.

They're iambic pentameter.

Brilliant.

I noticed this, thanks to this post, and reading the chapter again today, noticed something else: there's another one in the paragraph just below it...

"He sometimes heaved the wine up too, but there was always more. "

That, I believe, is iambic heptameter...