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direwolf

Regarding Tyrion

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There has been a lot of argument about this one, searching should turn some of it up.

Suffice it to say that at the absolute minimum Varys had the option of disappearing without freeing Tyrion first.

I have just reread Jaime's flashback, and he says he went to Varys's rooms the same night Tyrion was freed. This makes in perfectly possible, even likely, that Jaime was with Varys the whole time, leaving Varys no chance to escape.

But there is also a widely held theory that Varys was always planning to spring Tyrion, having worked all along to alienate him from his family, and Jaime's intervention was just icing on the cake. If you check the first Jaime chapter in AFfC, Jaime was audibly sharpening his dagger while waiting for Varys, and yet the greatest master plotter in Westeros apparently still walked straight into his ambush.

I think attributing Tyrion's alienation to Varys's plotting is making Varys too much into some superhuman plotter. Tyrion was plenty alienated with his family long before the start of the books. Tywin had always hated him for being a dwarf and killing Joanna and Cersei had Maggy the Frog's prophecy. And like Ran said, Varys did not necessarily hear the scrape of the knife. In fact, knowing Jaime, I find it highly unlikely that he would be making enough noise for Varys to hear him. He's more intelligent than that. Varys knows whats going on because of his spies and 'little birds.' The only ones who could possibly know that Jaime was waiting are the 'little birds,' and they can hardly come out into the corridor and tell Varys that, could they? The whole scenario works perfectly well like its portrayed without having to make Varys seem to be some kind of all-knowing superhuman.

Edit: Thank you, a wildling, I'll just check that out.

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Edit: Thank you, a wildling, I'll just check that out.

My pleasure. I suggest creating a new thread if you want to discuss it. It has been a while since it was all argued out.

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In fact, Jaime was one of the very few that knew Tyrion and still had any respect for him, and Tyrion seems ready to kill him over a much dead issue that Jaime had little control over anyway.

bit of a late entry i know, but this just caught my attention.

seriously, WTF?

first off, "had little control over"? JAIME WAS 22 AT THE TIME. he was an adult, and a cynical one at that. he wasn't a child being manipulated (although, from jaime's confession it does kind of sound like this, which bugged me) he KNEW that tyrion and tysha were in love and he KNEW that tywin was going to rip them apart. and he went along with it. whether or not he knew that tywin was going to the girl gang-raped is a moot point here; the damage had already been done.

secondly, the fact that it happened, what, 12-13 years does not make it a "much dead issue." there is not a single tyrion POV chapter in ACOK were tysha isn't far from his thoughts. in AGOT, the first time we meet tyrion he saunters back into the feast whistling a tune, and you can bet that it's his and tysha's song that he's whistling. what tywin and jaime did to him has haunted him for OVER A DECADE; that is not a dead issue. and from the number of times tyrion mentions having nightmares and his insomnia, it's possible that tywin's little lesson left him with Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

thirdly, is tyrion's reaction really that surprising? Jaime, his big brother, the one person he thought would never hurt him, suddenly revels that he betrayed and deceived tyrion WHEN HE NEEDED HIM THE MOST. of course tyrion was going to threaten revenge, who the hell wouldn't? that doesn't mean that he's gonna murder jaime. TWICE in the same chapter tyrion slips back into thinking about jaime as his Big Brother (y'know, "what would jaime do"). he has to REMIND himself that he's pissed at jaime. tyrion LOVES jaime (and vice versa) but he's just had his heart ripped in half all over again.

aaanyways, apologies for the rant , but this is what happens when i'm highly caffinated and loose on the internet :D

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Varys did Tyrion alienate from his family:

- He told Cersei about Tyrion's musings making Tommen King and ruling through him (something Tyrion actually never intended to do).

- He kept Shae around to use her as weapon in the end. If Tyrion would not have been accused of Joffrey's poisoning, I'm sure Shae being hanged by Tywin would have had a similar effect on his relationship with his father than had the revelataion about Tysha.

- His information about Tyrion's actions as Acting Hand certainly helped making Tywin colder to Tyrion than he would have been originally. Tywin knew Tyrion saved the City, but the Alayaya affair destroyed that.

On the Jaime thing:

Varys did know about Jaime's affection for Tyrion. He told Illyrio about it in AGoT, when Catelyn captured Tyrion. So you need not to be that bright to expect Jaime trying to save Tyrion's life. Maybe Varys was really surprised by finding Jaime in his rooms, but he certainly was not surprised by Jaime's wish to save Tyrion. In any case, the fact that Varys had one of Illyrio's galleys in KL ready to get Tyrion away in the night before his execution, is enogh for me to believe that the whole thing was prepared before Jaime 'forced' Varys into action.

If Varys had only acted on Jaime's behalf, he would have been tremendously lucky to have one of Illyrio's ships around. And without one of them, Tyrion would have been recaptured and killed on the very same day he was 'rescued'.

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seriously, WTF?

first off, "had little control over"? JAIME WAS 22 AT THE TIME. he wasn't a child being manipulated (although, from jaime's confession it does kind of sound like this, which bugged me) he KNEW that tyrion and tysha were in love and he KNEW that tywin was going to rip them apart. and he went along with it. whether or not he knew that tywin was going to the girl gang-raped is a moot point here; the damage had already been done.

Is tyrion's reaction really that surprising? Jaime, his big brother, the one person he thought would never hurt him, suddenly revels that he betrayed and deceived tyrion WHEN HE NEEDED HIM THE MOST. of course tyrion was going to threaten revenge, who the hell wouldn't? that doesn't mean that he's gonna murder jaime.

An old post, but I am bored.

Seriously, I see nothing wrong with Jaime´s handling of the situation of Tyrion´s marriage. "In love" in not an argument for a Westeros noble, and never have been. A son of a high noble is naturally brought up with an expectation of a political marriage. Jaime was expected to marry Elya, than Lysa. Nothing short of a KG vow would have saved him from it. Tyrion was probably expected to be marry someone of lesser importance - and by the time he was 14, this may even have been talked about in the family circle. But no. He goes and finds himself his first game, and is blinded enough by the experience to actually marry a simple peasant girl. I can understand how easily would Jaime find the whole situation unacceptable. At 22, and at 34 as well. He thinks Lancel´s reluctance to seal his marriage is a stain of the Lannister family name - appearances matter. No matter how in love Tyrion was with Tysha, he had no business whatsoever marrying her.

Telling Tyrion she was hired for him is not a betrayal nor some evil deceit. It´s a white lie - Jaime is honestly trying to solve an ugly situation and spare his brother his first heartache. He doesn´t say to Tyrion "father told me that it would be a good lesson for you, that you would thank me" to imply he himself didn´t think it was the right way to do. He says it to imply he never had imagined that his father would call bearing witness to a sadistic gang rape a "lesson to thank him for".

The Tyrion-Tysha split up was not wrong or right. It was inevitable. The actual evil deed was Tysha´s fate at Tywin´s hands, and Tyrion´s being forced to go along with it. Jaime says he had not known about it. I believe him, and it is my guess that Tyrion believes him too. He is just so caught in his own pain, hatred and failure, that he cannot reason things out anymore. The mess is such that he ends up thinking of Jaime as being on the same scale as Cersei in terms of his desire for vengeance, which I find very sad and very unsettling.

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The things I do for love... I'm not sure Jaime is one to talk about that. At 22 he was already bumping uglies with his sister. Icky12

"In love" in not an argument for a Westeros noble, and never have been. A son of a high noble is naturally brought up with an expectation of a political marriage. Jaime was expected to marry Elya, than Lysa. Nothing short of a KG vow would have saved him from it.

You could also say that his KG vow required him to be celibate, and yet he was fucking the queen for twenty years.

Having said that, I don't believe Jaime knew what Tywin had planned for Tysha and Tyrion. Jaime was not evil back then. He probably thought he was doing Tyrion a favour by letting him off easy out of an unwise marriage (not knowing what was to come).

Bastard beyond the Wall:

It definitely looks like he's headed in the direction that Tywin went, as regards ruthlessness and all.

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hi, my first post here :D

Anyway seems this topics gone out of focus so i'll just talk about the earlier discussion of tyrion which i read. i think tyrion has more presence in the book than most of the other characters, he overcomes the fact that he's a dwarf which literally means everyone looks down on him ;). He masterfully played the game back in King's Landing though ultimately he did fail but that was because he was unconscious after the battle and also because he was stripped of his powers as hand straight away. That basically meant he was left with nothing because with information he can act on it, with power as the hand he can act without limitation. Also the failings he has are anger, being outspoken and whores and being a lannister. someone has said that he was born into a powerful family which is an advantage, i say not because he gets taken hostage for that reason. anyway i feel that tyrion is cunning and is best from a losing position, he has too many weaknesses which means whenever he gets put on trial hes already lost in terms of a hearing. also he has no ways to procure loyalty which means everyone would betray him in a heartbeat because they underestimate him. for the reason why varys would send him to daenrys i think is because he's expendable and as great as varys is, he doesn't know how to conduct war,so tyrion can help her conquer westeros from the shadows if need be which i think would be the best position for him, because all of westeros expects a barbarian army with no idea of the tactics then wa la tyrion by her side. but they can kill him whenever and they dont even have to give him casterly rock, because what is he going to do to stop them?

PS: hes my favourite character :D also believe he will be the key in the end against whatever the silver lining will be at end of the series and i think he will survive to the end because he's already a sad story, death would be a happy thing for him.

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