Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

direwolf

Regarding Tyrion

Recommended Posts

But I guess it's indisputable that Tyrion has lots of experience dealing with self righteous, obsessed, power hungry queens. Maybe that's why Ilyrio wants Tyrion for Dany? :P

So ultimately, you are saying he only had power because he was Tywin's son, not because he was smart, personable, persuasive, or any other individual trait? Contrast that to someone like Varys or Littlefinger, who are completely self made. They obtained and wield their power based on personal merit. Don't you think Dany would be better of with someone self made?

OK, so maybe that's still a little harsh. Tyrion certainly could have made himself 'self made', but I think he fell back on the ol' "They don't like me because I'm dwarf" a few to many times. He has a bit of the 'victim' mentality.

Sure he got issues with the whores and being a dewarf and his daddy not loving him. But that doesn't take away that he's got brilliant straitigies and dispite what people said earlier he proven himself to be a great leader in the feild his rag-tag van at the Green fork(that was supposed to crumble) followed him quite well and turned the enemy, at Blackwater when he took charge of the ground forces after the Hounds retreate many men followed him to hold off Stannis troops from crossing.

And as others have said he's read more books on war, economics and ruling then most people have ever seen.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just out of curiousity, can you give some examples of his brilliance that helped the realm? The wildfire at the blackwater was actually Cersei's idea. Tyrion did do some level headed, able things. (Like the chain, which was a common tactic. Davos wasn't surprised by it, anyway, and sending his wildlings to the only place they would be useful.) But other than that, he seemed to spend most of his time scheming at little petty things with his sister, and trying to sneak around with his whore.

We don't know how Cersei's would have used the wildfire. Cersei seem to be clueless when it comes to war as shown in the aCoK chapter when they discuss Tywin's warefforts. Also, as shown with the Citywatch she seem to beleive the more men the better, nevermind that they don't have training, moral and food.

Tyrion, I feel, did great from a losing position. Nobody would have done better under the same circumstances. Maybe Tywin, but only because Cersei wouldn't dare mess up daddy's plans. Tyrion on the other hand had to counteract Cersei and Joffrey's stupidity besides running the kingdom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

somehow i still think this has to do with blood. In Westeros, blood takes precedence over popularity.

there is a theory floating around that tyrion is a targaryen, and although i highly doubt it, if it is true, varys is aware of it, i'm sure, and that is why he's using tyrion.

Lets face it, Ilyrio had those eggs. He knows something. He knew they would hatch, or else he wouldn't have given them to Dany. He wouldn't keep tyrion around just cause he's supposedly a good war councilor. He'd get the Blackfish or someone like that, someone with no loyalty to the crown. I think blood has something to do with it.

didn't someone refer to Ilyrio as a sorceror in aGoT? I think the aforementioned explanations are just too simple.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
didn't someone refer to Ilyrio as a sorceror in aGoT? I think the aforementioned explanations are just too simple.

Illyrio refers to Varys that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I fully agree with Yoren....I don't see why so many people praise Tyrion. He seems like little more than comic relief to me. He is supposedly this great, vastly intelligent, and underestimated dwarf lord, but all the many holes he's had the misfortune to be in, and the only one I've seen with a shovel is him.

Someone said he is a great judge of people? Why, because he judged Varys and Littlefinger of harboring secret motives? So did Eddard Stark, and look where he is now. The only reason Tyrion still lives after his handship, is because of his brother whom we all can agree, isn't the player their daddy was. In fact, Jaime was one of the very few that knew Tyrion and still had any respect for him, and Tyrion seems ready to kill him over a much dead issue that Jaime had little control over anyway.

Bottom line is that I personally have always thought Tyrion was an idiot no matter how many times he claims otherwise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Agreed. And Varys knows how brilliant Tyrion is from personal experience as he dealt with Tyrion a lot when Tyrion was a Hand-substitute. Besides his brightness and analytical skills, he has an experience in Westeros politics and knowledge of the players and the affairs of the state that Dany lacks -- grew up watching his father (master politician), later ruled Westeros himself. Varys and Illyrio like their comfort too much and do not want to take obvious risks to join Dany openly, but Tyrion has nothing to lose and he has a bone to pick with Cersei, so he is likely to be willing to help Dany from Illyrio and Varys's standpoint. Why bother themselves when someone else will happily do it instead -- set one Lannister against the other.

You are all trying to apply modern values to a medevil world. Birth and bloodline are the most important thing in determining loyalties- not ability. You see, a disgruntled Western lordling is bound by duty and honor to support the Lannister Lord- but what if there is another claimant with an equal (or better) claim. Now the lordling can back the claimant who offers him the best deal, while still holding to his honor- and with the famed riches of the Rock, they can expect great rewards if they pick the winner. (Hence Tyrion's comment to Illyrio that the gold was his (Illyrio's) but the Rock is mine (Tyrion's), and Illyrio answers "Just so") Tyrion's value has and will always be his position as a claimant to Casterly Rock.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First of all Tyrion is quite able to lead people and people will follow him. Kinglanding siege proved this well enough after all “halfman†become a battle cry. Tyrion is able to fight and he is brave so he could be a lord even great lord. He will never get love but who said that love is necessary?

Why Illirio and varies need him? Well the answer seems to be very obvious – Dany lack advisors and particularly advisors from Westeros. Tyrion is smart he has valuable experience and so he will be very useful for Dany with his wits and knowledge. But of course there could be some additional reasons as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

maester cresson has hit the nail on the head, i would think. Jaime is out of the running for casterly rock, so really the only true claimant is Tyrion's uncle. Ilyrio and co. could easily do away with him. I think tyrion will be by dany's side, but she doesn't need him there.

remember, she has barriston the bold, and has already proven herself pretty intelligent and able. This is just one way for Ilyrio to increase his return on his investment in Westeros, because without Tyrion Tyrek (is that his uncles name?) will instantly seize casterly rock

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One word. DRAGONS. There is a saying in the world of writing: If you are going to have a gun go off in the third act, you better put it on the shelf in the first act. Simple as that IMHO. On the trip to the Wall with Jon and Yoren, what was Tyrion doing? Reading. What was he reading? "a rumination on the history and properties of dragons" Tyrion will get to Dany, and help her bring her dragons in line. It probably will not be easy, but that is why he is going to Dany. He is the gun in the third act.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
One word. DRAGONS. There is a saying in the world of writing: If you are going to have a gun go off in the third act, you better put it on the shelf in the first act. Simple as that IMHO. On the trip to the Wall with Jon and Yoren, what was Tyrion doing? Reading. What was he reading? "a rumination on the history and properties of dragons" Tyrion will get to Dany, and help her bring her dragons in line. It probably will not be easy, but that is why he is going to Dany. He is the gun in the third act.

I'd say Jon is the gun in the third act. He might help her get dragons in order, but Jon started reading something in SAM I FFC. It might be some stuff to control dragons.

But, now, thinking about it, would George really want to do that. I mean, Jon never even saw Dragon, and to be able to control one on sight, It sounds kinda ... lame ... and so-not-George.

I think Tyrion made giant leap and proved to be able leader and Hand in COK, and he knows westeros (KL in particular) so he might become competent ally in the upcoming war. So Varys sets him free and sends him to Ilyrio, so they might use him. Of course, his apparent knowledge of dragons might come as a bonus.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tyrion's knowledge of dragons makes him invaluable. All his previous work takes a back seat to that info alone.

:P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In short words – Tyrions wits and knowledge make him very valuable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I misunderstood the meaning of the thread title, and now must wash my mind clean of grotesque mental images.

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there anything that Tyrion can provide that Varys can't except having Lannister blood?

Yoren, you really do sell Tyrion short. King's Landing was one step away from riot with Tyrion running things and keeping Joffrey and Cercei somewhat under control. The Martel alliance is all Tyrion (Cercei would never have entertained the idea), the Highgarden/Redwyne alliance may not have been tried without him too. Without him the Karstarks stay with Robb, though the Red Wedding probably still happens...maybe Cat doesn't free Jaime though.

I do think Tyrion is right to think that he saved KL, at least from the point of view that Dorne could have thrown in with Stannis (from Doran we know this is unlikely).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
for sure he's going to be dany's hand. He's got great strategic skills, knows a lot about dragons (which will come in handy for their training and making their saddles), and has a lot of debts to pay.

indeed. ilyrio and varys can't do all the work themselves, and 1) tyrion doesn't have anywhere to go, 2) he's got skillz, 3) he has no loyalty to anyone on Westeros.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I agree, I wrote a theory about this a while back. Remember, great minds think alike :)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?showt...p;hl=thevatican

I must have a great mind also :) since I agree as well. Tyron knows how to role a city a skill Dany needs most desperately not to talk about his knowledge of dragons. Ilirio may be don't aware about the second but he and Varis surely know about the first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just realized this after reading this topic.

Doesn't Tyrion joining up with Dany open up the possibility that Tyrion will finally be able to deliver on his promise (in AGOT) to those barbarians of the Vale that he would give them the Vale. After all a "Lanister always pays his debts." Dragons allow the Vale to conquered, the way it was described in AGOT it doesn't seem like it could be taken any other way.

This along with the evidence that Tyrion knows a bit about dragons lends credence to the idea that GRRM envisioned Tyrion meeting up with Dany from the very beginning.

To answer your quesiton more directly though Tyrion is very capable and since his family and Westeros have alienated him its likely he will join Dany's cause.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Doesn't Tyrion joining up with Dany open up the possibility that Tyrion will finally be able to deliver on his promise (in AGOT) to those barbarians of the Vale that he would give them the Vale. After all a "Lanister always pays his debts." Dragons allow the Vale to conquered, the way it was described in AGOT it doesn't seem like it could be taken any other way.

And little Robert wanted "to see him fly." :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×