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direwolf

Regarding Tyrion

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It boggles my mind that people can question Tyrion's cleverness or intelligence. Let's see... By the middle of AGOT, he was Catelyn Stark's prisoner, bound and chained and headed for the Eyrie for trial, judgment, and presumably execution. A few chapters later, he's secured the services of a highly competent sellsword almost entirely just by reading Bronn's character properly, and he's riding out of the Mountains of the Moon as a free man at the head of an army of mountain warriors. Did all that shit just happen by accident?

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Tyrion is awesome

In AGOT... he was the good guy, amongst the bad

In ACOK... he was a practically the King, ruling Westros

In ASOS... he endured so much, sucked in his pride to the point where it built up & unleashed with the fury of a crossbow

I hope that in ADWD... with everything lost, he finds Tysha, becomes happy, and helps Dany kick some Lannister/Tyrell/Bolton/LF/Frey loyalists' as$ (I know, I know.... this is wishful thinking and GRRM doesn't write stories like this... but one could always hope)

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Has no one mentioned this?

(I'm assuming a little aDwD spoiler is okay here in the aDwD spoiler forum...)

Dany's having trouble catching the Sons of the Harpy, partly because she's got no one with any aptitude for the job of catching eleusive foes in her inner circle.

To me it's blindingly obvious what service Tyrion will provide for her first. The Sons of the Harpy won't stand a chance.

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I don't know how much it matters, but there is one other thing Varys can rely on Tyrion for- another willing confederate who can shoulder a share of the work. Varys can't trust many with much of what he deals with. Tyrion can shoulder a share of the work- provided they get his mouth under control.

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I don't know how much it matters, but there is one other thing Varys can rely on Tyrion for- another willing confederate who can shoulder a share of the work. Varys can't trust many with much of what he deals with. Tyrion can shoulder a share of the work- provided they get his mouth under control.

Actually Tyrion knows very well when to keep his mouse shut.

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The thing that has really gotten me about this sample chapter is how f*cked up Tyrion has become since Jaime sprang that news on him about Tysha. He drinks himself across the sea and seems very close to being crazy. Not that I can blame him, but I still love the level of depth his character has.

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I hope that Jaime will understand just how much he has hurt Tyrion before he dies (I hope he doesn't, but what's the chance of that?).

It was of course Tywin who had the lion's share of the guilt, but Tyrion has already taken care of that. I just don't hope that the curse of the kinslayer will follow him now. If anybody in the series deserved death, it was Tywin. It wouldn't be fair if Tyrion dies because of this. Anyway, it really seems to have destroyed Tyrion, although he seems a bit more clear-headed in the second spoiler chapter. I'd very much like to read that in its entirety.

When oh when will ADOD come out?

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Just read ACoK again. Let us not forget that

1. While Cersei placed the order for wildfire, Tyrion was the one who organized the training of its use, and made sure that the guardsman knew what they were doing when Stannis attacked;

2. Tyrion did the above, and placed a competent commander on the City Watch, and did the other things mentioned (like leading a sorty when the Hound chickened out, organizing the chain (which made the wildfire so devastating), and so forth), all while Cersei was actively plotting against him in order to gain leverage, and would have him imprisoned out of the way if he made too many overt threats. Frankly, the fact that he can play the game with the other schemers in Westeros is a skill in of itself; it's more than Robert Baratheon, Jon Arryn, or Ned Stark could say.

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Pile on a bit more Tyrion love from this corner. What has he accomplished? Well, let's see, since being kidnapped by Ned Stark's crazy wife, he won his freedom by judging Bronn correctly, won over the mountain clans, was named Hand, saved the city from sacking via his chain and wildfire scheme (the notion that Cersei gets *any* credit for the wildfire scheme is criminal, by the way; she had a bit of it ordered, but Tyrion did every last bit of planning involved with it), successfully sniffed out Pycelle as Cersei's informant, controlled the damage done by Joffrey and Cersei, eliminated an incompetent/disloyal commander of the city watch and replaced him with a competent, loyal one, and led the sortie that actually saved the city. Tyrion is a fuggin' prodigy of the game, which is why LF went to all the trouble to frame him for the wedding regicide (hiring the jousting dwarves to create conflict between Tyrion and Joff, thereby playing Cersei like a fiddle). He will be an immense resource to Dany, provided he can get his shit together.

One point that's remained unmentioned: not only does he know a lot about dragons, he also has a talent in designing atypical saddles. Don't think that won't come into play.

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To me it's blindingly obvious what service Tyrion will provide for her first. The Sons of the Harpy won't stand a chance.

But why? Tyrion had long experience in the court at King's Landing before becoming acting Hand, and even then he was only able to take out the minor players (Janos Slynt, Allar Deem, Maester Pycelle), not, say, Varys or Littlefinger. And that he accomplished at the price of becoming deeply unpopular in King's Landing; his only two real strategems are bribery and intimidation. In Meereen he will be even more of an outsider, and will have to catch up on the fly while dealing with a deeply hostile population that will have even less respect for his authority. Tyrion is clever, and he'll probably be an asset, but there's precious little chance that he'll be able to eradicate the Sons of the Harpy.

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he was only able to take out the minor players (Janos Slynt, Allar Deem, Maester Pycelle), not, say, Varys or Littlefinger.

Well, he's good, but not superhuman. Littlefinger was deeply, deeply entrenched in KL. And let's not forget the small distraction of having to save the city from impending invasion. He still made a fair play at gettig LF out of his hair, and was willing to offer him Harrenhall to that end. As for Varys, he found with him an uneasy alliance, which evidently appears to have been correct, at least so far, as Varys has yet to betray him; as others have pointed out, there is evidence that Varys meant to rescue Tyrion even before Jaime's involvement.

And that he accomplished at the price of becoming deeply unpopular in King's Landing

Actually, it was saving the city that made him so unpopular, since his only major action that cost him popular support was the "dwarf's penny", which helped to pay for the defenses. That, and he tore down the hovels that people were building outside the city walls, which didn't do wonders for his popularity, but was necessary. The rest was just bad luck; he inherited a rough situation where to the North, the lands were ravaged and providing no food, while in the South, Mace Tyrell had cut off all supplies. The people of KL started starving around the time where Tyrion came to power as Hand, but this wasn't Tyrion's fault.

I will say, though, that PR is not exactly Tyrion's strong suit. He would have been much better off politically, though, had he not been wounded in the battle and out of commission for the next few weeks. Cersei and Tywin would not have been able to leech all the credit for what, in my mind, was his victory.

his only two real strategems are bribery and intimidation.

I disagree. Consider the ease with which he sniffed out Pycelle as Cersei's informant. It just so happened that bribery and intimidation were his best weapons against those he needed to remove; the only conceivable way to get LF out of his hair was to try and bribe him (which, obviously, didn't work, but it still wasn't a bad play offering him Harrenhall), and how do you manipulate a man like Janos Slynt without intimidating him?

In Meereen he will be even more of an outsider, and will have to catch up on the fly while dealing with a deeply hostile population that will have even less respect for his authority. Tyrion is clever, and he'll probably be an asset, but there's precious little chance that he'll be able to eradicate the Sons of the Harpy.

Yet, he will not be without assets. Presuming he can gain Dany's trust, he will have a force of loyal warriors to work with (a nice upgrade from his mountain clansmen, who, while fierce, kind of did their own thing), and nothing in the way of political competition (although I do look forward to his meeting Daario). He won't have any pull whatsoever with the commoners, but if he plays his cards right, he shouldn't need it. He won't eradicate them, but he should be able to deal with with some effectiveness.

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I agree wit one thing: Tyrion was not good player in KL.

Think about it. Every good player (Petyr, Varys) know what to say and when (and how) to act. Tyrion came to KL as a Hand. It is, after the King, highest pozition in Westeros. King is minor, so it is basicly highest pozition in KL defenitley. He did play Lf, Varys and Pycelle as best as he could, but he underestimated his sister. At the beginning, he promised her Jamie, wich was excelent move, but then he screwed it up by saying that when she is happy he will ruin her.

He played good against everyone besides his family. That is my oppinion, and that is not good playing. To play good you have to play good against everyone. He had feelings for his family. They did hurt him a lot in the past, but he did not hold that against them, at least not on the level that he would betray them. And, by arriving in KL, only thing he wanted to do is to be a good Hand until his father arrives. That is, if you think about it, very bad, because good player's goals are unknown to other players. Petyr once said that sometimes he would do things that didn't benefit him at all just to keep everyone away from his goal.

Weather he will play good in Mereen against Harpy's sons is completley different matter. He will be in some disadvantage, because his pozition in Mereen will be lower than that in KL, but he won't have his familly against him, wich is a good thing.

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I agree wit one thing: Tyrion was not good player in KL.

Bull-sh!t. Tyrion was a brilliant player. He did a spectacular job with the pieces he was given. His one major flaw was that he did not kill people that he should have. Jannos Slynt, Cersie, LF, Pycelle. Given his limited power base and only real asset was his money, he did a fan-freakin-tastic job.

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Bull-sh!t. Tyrion was a brilliant player. His one major flaw was that he did not kill people that he should have.

I agree, he wasn't ruthless enough. He didn't want to hurt his opponents (Cersei), trusted too easily (Varys), or was too scrupulous with others (Littlefinger). In some instances he could do little more, sure, but he also tried to be loved. I've got the feeling he'll be abiding by Tywin's maxim that "love does not keep you warm". I think he'll be going for Tywin-like effectiveness in future.

Which, by the way, I assume will cost some Harpy's Sons certain bodyparts. Don't know about the goats though...

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Tyrion, for all his flaws, is probably the best equipped to help Dany combat the Harpys. Even with Ilyrio's vouching, however, I think it will be hard to convince Dany that she wants to have a Lannister working for her. Tyrion, for his part, will have little patience with her airs and won't feel obliged to prove himself to her. And Dany is still young enough that she places a lot of worth in appearance and good looks, in addition to the Targ/Lannister enimity.

I'm sure Varys and Ilyrio have worked out something clever, but it will take more than a friendly dinner to get Tyrion and Dany working on the same side.

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Tyrion may not know the situation in Mereen, but he knows people. People are motivated by the same things the world over, really, and Tyrion knows which strings to pull and what levers to push. Given a few resources (guards and gold), he'll be in good shape.

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But why would Dany welcome Tyrion? The Lannisters are her enemy, she was raised hearing that over and over. And Ser Barristan isn't likely to make him welcome, either, considering that knight's enmity towards Joffrey and the Lions in general. I think it's more likely that Dany will throw him to the dragons--'eat,' she'll say--and that's when, gasp, the dragons will absoutely love him.

Which isn't too likely. In GoT, the direwolves absoutely hated Tyrion. Dragons are animals too.

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