Regarding Tyrion

[RWHamel]

I've got a theory that Shae really didn't betray Tyrion. I think she was carefully manipulated by Varys as to what to say at the trial. I imagine that he convinced her that no matter what she said, that were still going to execute Tyrion, and if she went along with his instructions he would get Tyrion out. It would be very ironic if her statements in the Hand's bedchamber were sincere. I also think Shae might have fatally poisoned Tywin as part of her loyalty to Tyrion.

[Ealasaid]

Maybe I was a bit harsh on the little guy. But he did let his obsession with whores cloud his ju

But I guess it's indisputable that Tyrion has lots of experience dealing with self righteous, obsessed, power hungry queens. Maybe that's why Ilyrio wants Tyrion for Dany?

So ultimately, you are saying he only had power because he was Tywin's son, not because he was smart, personable, persuasive, or any other individual trait? Contrast that to someone like Varys or Littlefinger, who are completely self made. They obtained and wield their power based on personal merit. Don't you think Dany would be better of with someone self made?

OK, so maybe that's still a little harsh. Tyrion certainly could have made himself 'self made', but I think he fell back on the ol' "They don't like me because I'm dwarf" a few to many times. He has a bit of the 'victim' mentality.

Hmm.

This may have been addressed, sorry, Ran flame me out if I'm rehashing something.

I don't think Tryion has has obessession with whore. I think he has terribly hurt over the Tysha incident, and has steeled himself and his heart, he only goes to whore becuase he knows they don't love him, only his gold. Tyrion sees himself as unloveable. Tywin and Cersei harp on his obsession with whores.

Tyrion is required for his knowledge and book learning. A person who cannot ride in the lists studies them. He knows his hearaldry. He knows why it would be a bad thing to rearm the Faith. He reads. He undoubtedly learned more from the maesters than Jaime and Cersie put otgether. He reads about dragons....and seige engines. He knows Kings' Landing's little in and outs now.

Of course, his name as a Lannister protected him all these years. He would have been laid out to die or sold to passing entertainers.

I don't think he has a victim mentality at all. The last we got on him, he was pretty drunk, and musing heavily on Tysha and where the whores go. I hope that isn't the line all through ADWD.

Dany needs Tyrion's knowledge of Westeros and his assessment of the various lords and alliances. He may not be her Hand, but surely, a good councillor.

On another note, I am exceedingly curious as to why Shae was in Tywin's bed with the chain on.... I don't think Varys put her knowing Tyrion would crawl up and kill his father.

[Mancer]

I think Im going to challange the general consensus on Tyrion's name being the only reason he's proved so valuable. In aCoK he led the sortie onto the shore after the Hound fled. On his initial offer to lead it, only a handful of men rallied to him to which he replied "They say Im only half a man, what does that make the rest of you?" His wits shamed the men into following him out to halt the ram. That takes not only guts but cold manipulation. In conjunction to this, it really isnt much for Cersei to bring up wildfire. Its more or less a staple of KL, but for Tyrion to load it into Ship's hulks, in order to have them destroy the ships that rammed them was masterful, in conjunction with the chain being raised when half the fleet had past.

Plus quite frankly I suspect that in the Game, Tyrion would whip Cersei, but he hadnt realized that she was playing to kill. Something that doesnt ever seem to occur to Tyrion, as she is his sister. He had far more agents in her camp than she did in his.

Also in conjunction to Loyalty, yes he was betrayed by many but Podrick Payne saved his life and the Clans would have remained loyal, despite their gruffness, but they were run off by Tywin's forces. I think that should be enough to prove Tyrion's cleverness. Throughout the books, until Tywins death, the Head of Lannister takes every opportunity to de-claw his son. Why would Tywin Lannister so thoroughly crush Tyrion at every chance? Hatret perhaps, but Tywin is too cold and logical a man to let a mere emotion get in the way, is after all a political magnate. Understanding then. I'd hazard a guess that Tywin understood that Tyrion was his brightest and by far most dangerous of his ilk. His Sister even admits it when she calls Tyrion "Tywin's true son." If you review the end of ACoK and the beggining of aSoS, you'll see that Tywin moved with brutal swiftness to remove all of Tyrion's safegaurds and defences, and make him subservent to House Lannister aka Tywin once more.

[oxmix]

My theory is that Tyrion is important because he is Dany's half brothe The spoiler chapter adds evidence in support of my theory.

I won't rehash the past Tryion is a Targ discussion. But consider how many times the word "kinslayer" comes up in the spoiler chapter. Curses seem to be real in Westeros, so Tyrion is right to be worried. He is a kinslayer. He is cursed. He will meet a horrible end. Wise people will avoid him.

Unless Tywin is not his father. Then he is not a kislayer. Then all sorts of possibilities open up.

Tywin said that he could not prove that Tyrion was not his son. If Tyrion is in fact the child of the mad king, who, still living would know that?

[SkyPirate]

Tywin said that he could not prove that Tyrion was not his son. If Tyrion is in fact the child of the mad king, who, still living would know that?

So how is the reader/Tyrion going to know (for sure) that Tyrion is Aerys's son? Who the hell is going to suggest it?

[oxmix]

So how is the reader/Tyrion going to know (for sure) that Tyrion is Aerys's son? Who the hell is going to suggest it?

Who is it who would know who was in Aerys's bed chamber but is still alive?

I think the scene will go something like this:

Dany: I don't care how usefull he might be. He is Tywin's son, and Tywin betrayed my house. Off with his head!

Varys: As your new minister of spying, I advise you against that. Tyrion is in fact your half brother by rape. Ser Baristan can verify that.

Baristan: Well, we white cloaks are supposed to keep the kings secrets, but I guess I can tell you.

Dany: I guess I'd better not be a kinslayer then. Plus, the dragons do like him. Okay, Tyrion can be my Hand.

[History of Westeros]

I really have a hard time understanding how anyone can see Tyrion as a poor player in the Game.

It's all relative. He's not as good as Varys or LF, maybe a few others. Who else? He's likely top 10 if not top 5.

Another thing few ppl have touched on is that Tyrion is *young* (also relatively speaking). Of all the good "Game" players: Varys, Illyrio, LF, Tywin, etc etc, all of them are a good deal older than him. This means he will only get better at playing. You think Varys was this good at manipulating people when he was in his late 20's? To be sure, he's always been good at it. But now that he's what, in his late 40's early 50's, he's a master. By the end of the series, Tyrion could be the best, and if not, we will certainly see him excel more than he has.

Yet another piece of evidence that Tyrion is capable. No one has said that Tywin was not a good player, and who did he choose to be Hand when he couldn't be there himself? Tyrion, who at other times is disrespected by his father. You can say that he didn't have another choice, but he did. He could've named Kevan, or perhaps Marbrand.

I challenge the Tyrion detractors to name all the people who are better at playing the game. That may paint of picture of how some of you have set the bar too high on what makes a good game player. It doesn't work like this: "Varys, Littlefinger, Illyrio are masters of the game! Everyone else is stupid!"

Also, anyone who doesn't see Tyrion's expertise with saddles a la Bran as foreshadowing for making dragon saddles, along with Tyrion feeling the heat from the dragon bones, AND loving dragons as a child... I dunno. If you read just the Tyrion chapters, it's really quite blatant. He and Dany were meant for each other, and the story/GRRM are clearly indicating this with all kinds of clues.

[SkyPirate]

One slight nitpick. LF isn't a "good deal older". He's like three or four years older.

[Mezeh]

4 or 5 years. Littlefinger was a bit less then 30 by the AGOT and Tyrion is about 25-26 the same time.

[Kingslander]

Just out of curiousity, can you give some examples of his brilliance that helped the realm? The wildfire at the blackwater was actually Cersei's idea. Tyrion did do some level headed, able things. (Like the chain, which was a common tactic. Davos wasn't surprised by it, anyway, and sending his wildlings to the only place they would be useful.) But other than that, he seemed to spend most of his time scheming at little petty things with his sister, and trying to sneak around with his whore.

It was also his idea to try to ally with Highgarden, but it was Littlefinger that actually pulled it off. And once again, it doesn't take brilliance to seek out help via a marriage aliance. That's what everybody was doing. The hard part was the negotiation, which Littlefinger handled.

He also seemed to have this angst about not being taken seriously. And yet whenever his father would call him for his counsel, all that he'd have to offer was a bunch of smart ass comments.

I don't particular think he's a good judge of men. He mostly surround himself with people he had 'bought', with the exception of Bywater. And in the end, they all betrayed him. Even his whore. he lost the game when he couldn't pull for a single ally to witness for him in his trial...

So I guess, personally, I don't see why Ilyrio would want a smart ass drunk dwarf who got majorly schooled in the Game of Thrones. :cool:

First of all (and I may be wrong) but wasn't the wildfire Tyrion's idea as well?

He also planned for the eventuality of them losing (sending Tommen away), made sure Joffrey didn't go galloping away, and realized the importance of Joffrey not withdrawing to the castle (they almost lost the battle because of Cersei's mothering). He also managed to command his men well enough that they were willing to follow a dwarf with not much arms experience out in a sortie. All great for someone not very experienced as a battle commander. I recall he also found ways to get food to the populace and knew to clear the hovels leaning against the walls away. Not exactly the work of a "smart ass drunk dwarf". The comments were mainly due to bitterness against his father and knowledge that no matter what he said, his father would make his own decisions without heeding him.

Also, you seem to misunderstand the way the Game of Thrones works - if a player or even very important pawn is caught or trapped by enemies, they WON'T have anyone to back them up. The players all have very loose morality and not much of a sense of personal honour, which is why their followers and fast friends would abandon them so quickly. Someone like Ned or Jon Arryn wouldn't lose all their power if they were caught because of loyal followers, but definitely not Tyrion (a dwarf, a second son, etc).

Also, you realize (as Tyrion did) that his only real salvation was the trial by battle, since both his father and Mace Tyrell were convinced of his guilt.

And in the end, they all betrayed him. Even his whore.

Whores are generally not known for their constancy. Tyrion knew, he hid her away, but not well enough.

Also, you misunderstand why Tyrion made the alliance possible - he had the idea. Without the idea and being able to judge who he could make an alliance with, there would have BEEN no negotiations and no alliance. You see?

[hrafna]

another point in favour is that tyrion has read about dragons, he is perhaps the foremost leader on dragon lore. i think he has got alittle bit to learn to be a master of the game but he has what it takes to do it.

[aspasia]

Who is it who would know who was in Aerys's bed chamber but is still alive?

Barristan is the one who would know who is in place to tell Dany, certainly. There are many other candidates for who knows: Ilyn Payne heads the list. (snort. sorry)

[aspasia]

another point in favour is that tyrion has read about dragons, he is perhaps the foremost leader on dragon lore. i think he has got alittle bit to learn to be a master of the game but he has what it takes to do it.

I don't know about foremost leader on dragon lore. Certainly he's read books. Others have too. Maesters, to start with. I'd tip Marwyn as my candidate for foremost scholar of dragonlore.

"a little to learn".... Emotionally, yes. It's been pointed out how he never goes for the throat with Cersei; how his love for Jaime sustains him. His hater for his father is tempered by longing for his approval and automatic defense of his secrets-- remember his lying to the Viper to cover for Tywin "without even considering" whether to do so? He's an emotional mess, longing for love but feeling unworthy, proving himself worthy over and over without getting family approval, letting his emotions provoke him to act childishly to Tywin even when Tywin's at his LEAST horrible. Tyrion is interesting, appealing, human, BECAUSE he's such a conflicted little ball of feelings. He's self-aware to a degree about how his emotions drive him, but also seems oblivious-- say, of how he lets his father's low expectations provoke him to play down to them, or how his father is shaped by his distrust of laughter.

He can't master this "game" because he's decent, vulnerable, and conflicted. Otherwise he has all the skills, knowledge, and training he would need to come out on top-- what he lacks is the ruthlessness, the coldness, the exclusive desire to win, the selfishness, the self-centeredness. Tywin's a horror of coldness, who usually wins because he usually doesn't allow longings for any sort of affection anywhere near his cold hard nasty gold nugget where a heart used to be. It's always puzzled me what to make of his claim that Tyrion is not his son: it is simply his vanity that refuses to admit he could have sired a dwarf? Refusing to claim fatherhood of Tyrion requires him also to think his wife was unfaithful, and his relatives seem unified in the belief Tywin loved his wife. Even thinking Joanna might have been unfaithful against her will would have "soiled" her to him and brought on an explosive vengeance-- far, far sooner than the betrayal he eventually handed Aerys, which seemed to me a cold act of expediency very much in line with Tywin's calculating nature.

I just can't reconcile the Tywin shown in the novels with a husband aware of the betrayal OR the rape of a much-loved wife-- so how can he think Tyrion is not his son? How is the shame of siring a dwarf worse than the shame of a wife's infidelity, or the shame of not avenging her violation? Something does NOT add up.

[ogbebaba]

I just can't reconcile the Tywin shown in the novels with a husband aware of the betrayal OR the rape of a much-loved wife-- so how can he think Tyrion is not his son? How is the shame of siring a dwarf worse than the shame of a wife's infidelity, or the shame of not avenging her violation? Something does NOT add up.

"Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since i cannot prove that you are not mine. to teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. but neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn casterly rock into your whorehouse."

tywin didn't have any reason to think tyrion was not of his blood he was just in denial

[Silverius]

I don't know about foremost leader on dragon lore. Certainly he's read books. Others have too. Maesters, to start with. I'd tip Marwyn as my candidate for foremost scholar of dragonlore.

"a little to learn".... Emotionally, yes. It's been pointed out how he never goes for the throat with Cersei; how his love for Jaime sustains him. His hater for his father is tempered by longing for his approval and automatic defense of his secrets-- remember his lying to the Viper to cover for Tywin "without even considering" whether to do so? He's an emotional mess, longing for love but feeling unworthy, proving himself worthy over and over without getting family approval, letting his emotions provoke him to act childishly to Tywin even when Tywin's at his LEAST horrible. Tyrion is interesting, appealing, human, BECAUSE he's such a conflicted little ball of feelings. He's self-aware to a degree about how his emotions drive him, but also seems oblivious-- say, of how he lets his father's low expectations provoke him to play down to them, or how his father is shaped by his distrust of laughter.

He can't master this "game" because he's decent, vulnerable, and conflicted. Otherwise he has all the skills, knowledge, and training he would need to come out on top-- what he lacks is the ruthlessness, the coldness, the exclusive desire to win, the selfishness, the self-centeredness. Tywin's a horror of coldness, who usually wins because he usually doesn't allow longings for any sort of affection anywhere near his cold hard nasty gold nugget where a heart used to be. It's always puzzled me what to make of his claim that Tyrion is not his son: it is simply his vanity that refuses to admit he could have sired a dwarf? Refusing to claim fatherhood of Tyrion requires him also to think his wife was unfaithful, and his relatives seem unified in the belief Tywin loved his wife. Even thinking Joanna might have been unfaithful against her will would have "soiled" her to him and brought on an explosive vengeance-- far, far sooner than the betrayal he eventually handed Aerys, which seemed to me a cold act of expediency very much in line with Tywin's calculating nature.

I just can't reconcile the Tywin shown in the novels with a husband aware of the betrayal OR the rape of a much-loved wife-- so how can he think Tyrion is not his son? How is the shame of siring a dwarf worse than the shame of a wife's infidelity, or the shame of not avenging her violation? Something does NOT add up.

Emphasis mine.

The business with the singer who ended up in a pot of stew at least suggests he is learning from his mistakes. Tyrion even reflects about this when talking to his father.

[aspasia]

Emphasis mine.

The business with the singer who ended up in a pot of stew at least suggests he is learning from his mistakes. Tyrion even reflects about this when talking to his father.

Tyrion's never been excessively sentimental about the deaths of non-family members. He's already accustomed to the facts of life as a Lannister: there are people who are threats, or enemies, who must be removed ASAP and for whom he wastes no tears.

Tyrion is unusual in his family for his ability to identify with victims and to imagine and sympathize with others' motives and feelings. He doesn't have to hate his enemies in order to recognize the necessity of getting rid of them-- or even think particularly badly of them, as Tywin seems always to do. Tywin oozes contempt for everyone not a Lannister or equivalent in power-- they're all whores, weaklings, worthless dross as far as Tywin is concerned. Tywin also despises Tyrion FOR Tyrion's habit of failing to despise everyone else adequately. I wondered for a while why Tywin didn't see what Cersei really was, but then realized that the only thing about Cersei that Tywin would really disapprove of is her stupidity. Cersei believes she is naturally better, more worthwhile, than anyone else, simple because she is a Lannister, which she could have learned directly from her father. Cersei and Tywin both think Tyrion is a loser because he fails to view all non-Lannisters as subhuman.

I'm going off point-- all I wanted to say was that "kill your enemies" is an old lesson, really. Tyrion suffers largely from his reluctance to bite the bullet and admit fully that Tywin and Cersei ARE his enemies. He wanted Tywin to be proud of him, to declare him his heir, to see his worth-- to love him as a son. Cersei outright calls Tyrion's longing for affection a disease... while Tyrion is hurt that she would think he would really harm his own nephew.

It's Tyrion's vulnerability that sets him so far apart from his father and sister, and makes his a sympathetic human character rather than a monster. Ironic that Tywin and Cersei, such physically splendid characters, are moral monsters who constantly call Tyrion a monster simply for his outward ugliness.

[eddsmonkey]

4 or 5 years. Littlefinger was a bit less then 30 by the AGOT and Tyrion is about 25-26 the same time.

i thought LF was around the same age as Ned and he was 35 at the start of AGoT

[Lady Blackfish]

From AGOT: "and threads of silver in his dark hair, though he was still shy of thirty."

[Restless]

How old are Lisa and Catelyn? Rob Stark was 16 no?

[iJerk]

After I read all the books once again, I believe Tyrion was born after Aerys raped Joanna Lannister to punish his Hand Tywin Lannister. That explains the problems the Hand Tywin had with Aerys, his last words "You are not my son" and it makes Tyrion a stepfatherslayer and not a kinslayer. And there are plenty of other hints, I think.

And of course he will be the most important advisor to his half-sister. Who else is able to teach Daeny all about the 7 Kingdoms and the currently played game of thrones? Mormont, Selmy? Never. It has to be Tyrion, that way the grip of Illyrio and Varys on Daeny losens further.

my 2 cents