Regarding Tyrion

[BoldAsYouPlease]

It's always puzzled me what to make of his claim that Tyrion is not his son: it is simply his vanity that refuses to admit he could have sired a dwarf? Refusing to claim fatherhood of Tyrion requires him also to think his wife was unfaithful, and his relatives seem unified in the belief Tywin loved his wife. Even thinking Joanna might have been unfaithful against her will would have "soiled" her to him and brought on an explosive vengeance-- far, far sooner than the betrayal he eventually handed Aerys, which seemed to me a cold act of expediency very much in line with Tywin's calculating nature.

I just can't reconcile the Tywin shown in the novels with a husband aware of the betrayal OR the rape of a much-loved wife-- so how can he think Tyrion is not his son? How is the shame of siring a dwarf worse than the shame of a wife's infidelity, or the shame of not avenging her violation? Something does NOT add up.

I think the "you're no son of mine" line is taken too literally. If Tywin really believed that Tyrion was not his son, Tyrion would have quietly died long ago. In a world where lords like Randyll Tarly guarantee their true-born sons an "accidental" death for disobedience, the notion that a lord as proud as Tywin Lannister would keep the deformed, weak offspring of his wife's betrayal alive defies reality.

Tywin obviously despises Tyrion - he blames Tyrion for the death of his beloved wife, Tyrion's deformity ensures that House Lannister will receive the ridicule which Tywin hates, and Tyrion's normal desire for women awakens a complex shame Tywin feels for his own father's reliance on whores - one which he shares. But though he hates the notion that Tyrion is his son, he does believe it - there would be no Tyrion chapters to tell otherwise.

[oxmix]

I think the "you're no son of mine" line is taken too literally. If Tywin really believed that Tyrion was not his son, Tyrion would have quietly died long ago. In a world where lords like Randyll Tarly guarantee their true-born sons an "accidental" death for disobedience, the notion that a lord as proud as Tywin Lannister would keep the deformed, weak offspring of his wife's betrayal alive defies reality.

Tywin obviously despises Tyrion - he blames Tyrion for the death of his beloved wife, Tyrion's deformity ensures that House Lannister will receive the ridicule which Tywin hates, and Tyrion's normal desire for women awakens a complex shame Tywin feels for his own father's reliance on whores - one which he shares. But though he hates the notion that Tyrion is his son, he does believe it - there would be no Tyrion chapters to tell otherwise.

Maybe. Maybe he suspects that the Mad King had his way with Joanna Lanister, but is not sure.

[Mezeh]

You see only two situations. The first that Tywin knew that Tyrion is his son and the second that he is not. Yet it is possible that Tywin wasn’t sure – Tyrion appearance is too vague and distorted. This would explain why Tywin recognized Tyrion officially but why the idea of Tyrion becoming his heir was so unbearable to him. Yet Tyrion been cause of death of Tywin’s beloved wife and him been a dwarf explain this as well so any theory “Tyrion is no Tywin’s son†is just unnecessary since it only produce an alternative explanation of Tywin’s behavior.

[Olenna]

Yet Tyrion been cause of death of Tywin’s beloved wife and him been a dwarf explain this as well so any theory “Tyrion is no Tywin’s son†is just unnecessary since it only produce an alternative explanation of Tywin’s behavior.

But A + J = Tyrion would explain other things besides Tywin's dislike for Tyrion. It would explain Tywin's hatred for Aerys, it would explain why Tyrion has some white hair (in addition to yellow and black), and it would explain Tyrion's dragon dreams and pyromania.

I have always found it very hard to believe that Tywin would disinherit Tyrion and frame him for the murder of Joffrey if he actually believed he was his son. Nobody does that to their own kid, even if the kid is deformed and unsatisfactory.

[Mezeh]

Tywin age by itself plus his loss of beloved wife is more then enough to explain his white hairs.

I see no evidence that Tyrion has any pyromania and while he is indeed suspiciously too mach fascinated by dragons apparently not any kid that dream about dragons has dragon dreams otherwise real world would be full of Targaryens. ïŠ

Tywin explained to Tyrion why he won’t allow him to become his heir and Tyrion himself accepted the explanation so I see no reason why we should doubt it. And Tywin never framed Tyrion he believed in his guilt but taking into account his attitude there is little wonder about that.

[Antonius Pius]

You see only two situations. The first that Tywin knew that Tyrion is his son and the second that he is not. Yet it is possible that Tywin wasn’t sure – Tyrion appearance is too vague and distorted. This would explain why Tywin recognized Tyrion officially but why the idea of Tyrion becoming his heir was so unbearable to him.

The answer is: denial. As far as ASOS Tywin still had not accepted that Jaime was in the Kingsguard. Even after Jaime refuses Casterly Rock, he goes on to treat him as his heir. It's the same with Tyrion. Tywin cannot accept the shame of having a dwarf son, of seeing the pride of House Lannister humiliated by a capering halfman with a wicked tongue. So he pretends that it isn't so. The same way he pretends he is above whores. In a word: hypocrisy.

[Errant Bard]

It would explain Tywin's hatred for Aerys,

But it is already explained: the same day, Aerys refused Cersei as Rhaegar's bride and snatched Tywin's heir by making him a Kingsguard. He did it on purpose to piss off Tywin, as Jaime reflects on much later, because he was jealous of his skills and popularity. Considering that and the Ilyn Paine incident, I see no reason why this would be the first petty slight Tywin weathered.

it would explain why Tyrion has some white hair (in addition to yellow and black)

Tyrion is blond, almost white hair is his natural coloration. Black, however is not, but somehow I never saw a theory where a Baratheon was his father.

and it would explain Tyrion's dragon dreams and pyromania.

Tyrion has never been a pyromaniac, or I have missed something in the text. With wyldfire, since it is the only time he plays with fire, he's just behaving like he does with an axe in hand, treating it as a weapon, not something he loves.

Dreams of dragons, why is it necessary to be the son of a Targaryen to dream of that? How many kids dream of being jet fighter pilots even when their parents are not?

I have always found it very hard to believe that Tywin would disinherit Tyrion and frame him for the murder of Joffrey if he actually believed he was his son. Nobody does that to their own kid, even if the kid is deformed and unsatisfactory.

Come on, Tywin is a cold bastard. This is an internal family affair, Joffrey was his grandson, and Cersei is his daughter, it's not like Tyrion killed a stranger here. Plus, there are the political ramifications, Tywin cannot go against the Tyrells and all the witnesses, kinslaying is the gravest sin of all, it's not a coincidence if we get to hear stories about how gods hate the kinslaying Stark.

But this is nothing compared to the personal dislike Tywin has for Tyrion. Nobody does that to their own kid? Tywin does. He already disinherited him, he never laughed or smiled since Tyrion killed Joanna, he threw a hissy fit at Tyrion visiting Chataya and now discovered Shae, and he already tried to have Tyrion killed (in the battle against Roose for example, where he expected Tyrion to be sandwiched between the river and Roose foot, and to be annihilated, drawing Roose's army too far when they would be slaughtering Tyrion).

Yes, Tywin does this to his own kid. He does nothing for or against him, he lets other people do the work, exactly like against Roose. Not like he could do anything here, in any case. What do you think he could have done, considering Cersei is his daughter, as well?

[Mezeh]

Errant, I have the same point. Each theory should have to explain something that otherwise is not clear. For example we have a clear mystery about Jon’s parentage so we have a lot of theories that strives to explain it. Three dragon head mystery is a reason for “Aegon alive†theory est. What the theory “Tyrion is not Tywin’s son†trying to explain? Tywin’s attitude - we already have the explanation in the text. Tyrion fascination of dragons – there is no necessary for any mystery here. What else? Myself I see only two unexplained moments about Tyrion. One is why maester Aemon suddenly called him a giant and the second why Tyrion was attacked by direwolves.

[Errant Bard]

What else? Myself I see only two unexplained moments about Tyrion. One is why maester Aemon suddenly called him a giant and the second why Tyrion was attacked by direwolves.

I don't know for the first, it just seems to me to be a development for Aemon, showing that he is more insightful than nearly anyone, seeing the greatness in Tyrion that noone in the book recognizes. It could also be some introduction on how a Targaryen can get along with the guy, or something far fetched like an introduction for Tyrion being slain by Sansa among the ruins of Winterfell. Either way, I don't see the link between being a "giant" (or standing as tall as a king) and being a Targaryen, they don't have a monopoly on giants or greatness (or kings).

For Tyrion being attacked by Direwolves, it makes more sense to me for him to be attacked by a direwolf because he is a Lannister (and because Robb and Jon transmitted their suspicion and anger to their beast, like Rickon does, of course) than because he could be a Targaryen. I cannot see the rationale of why he (and Robert) would be left alone when he came first to Winterfell, but being attacked when the wolves master when in an aggressive mood later on makes him to always have been a half Targaryen. It would make Joffrey a half Targaryen as well, among others the direwolves attacked in different circumstances.

[Mezeh]

Well Tyrion certainly has greatness in him and it was later recognized by several people. Garlan Tyrell for example clear called Tyrion great in face. Yet all these recognitions were based on Tyrion’s deeds. On the Wall he demonstrated his wits but did nothing that suggested greatness. Yet words of maester Aemon hints us about on possible Aemon’s mystical abilities and has nothing that points to Tyrion possible Targaryen descent. Not all Targaryens were great and surely not all great men are Targaryens. Some of Targaryens have mystical abilities but Tyrion so far demonstrated none.

The episode with wolves is more intriguing. You are right Robb was angry with Tyrion for him been Lannister yet only at the beginning of their conversation and only Robb. After Tyrion presented his gift for Bran Robb become confused Bran was excited and Rickon barely understood what was going on. And yet at the same moment wolves attacked Tyrion and without of any warning that are pretty unusual for their behavior. Besides they acted like they wanted to protect their owners and scare Tyrion away but they never caused to Tyrion any physical harm. It looked like they saw some threat in him but Tyrion made nothing threatening. So we have a mystery here and I don’t know an explanation for it.

[Olenna]

But it is already explained: the same day, Aerys refused Cersei as Rhaegar's bride and snatched Tywin's heir by making him a Kingsguard. I see no reason why this would be the first petty slight Tywin weathered.

But that's just it--it was a petty slight, not worth betraying the king over. In any case, crown princes typically marry other royalty rather than advisers' daughters; it was presumptuous of Tywin even to suggest the match, and naturally Aerys shot him down. As for making Jaime a Kingsguard, of course it was a blow, but it was also a huge honor for the Lannister family. I've always thought that Tywin had a more substantive reason for hating Aerys which we don't know about yet. Whether it will turn out to be Joanna's rape or something else remains to be seen.

Tyrion is blond, almost white hair is his natural coloration. Black, however is not, but somehow I never saw a theory where a Baratheon was his father.

He's described in AGOT as having a combination of yellow, black, and white hair, and mismatched eyes as well. When we consider the schematic way in which geneology works in Westeros, this combination of traits is somewhat suggestive of one non-Lannister parent. But I can't explain the black hair.

With wyldfire, since it is the only time he plays with fire, he's just behaving like he does with an axe in hand, treating it as a weapon, not something he loves.

I think it's symbolically significant that Tyrion is consistently associated with fire and heat, and that many of his bad experiences are associated with ice and water (the Vale, the sea voyage to Pentos).

Dreams of dragons, why is it necessary to be the son of a Targaryen to dream of that?

Maybe it isn't necessary. But the fact remains that the only other people in the book who have dragon dreams (IIRC) are Dany and Shireen, who both have Targ blood. Animal dreams do seem to be connected with genes: for instance, all the Starks, and only the Starks, have wolf dreams.

Come on, Tywin is a cold bastard.

We seem to have a fundamental disagreement about the possible limits of paternal bad behavior. I can't think of a single father figure in history or literature who (a) put his own son of the front lines of a battle in the hope of getting him killed or ( framed his own son for murder and condemned him to death. Compare the relatively indulgent way in which Tywin treats Cersei, who is much more of an asshole and a liability than Tyrion. I can't explain this double standard except by suggesting that Tywin believes Cersei is his and Tyrion is not.

[Errant Bard]

But that's just it--it was a petty slight, not worth betraying the king over.

He annihilated the Raynes for less, it is consistent, for me, with how he was developped.

He's described in AGOT as having a combination of yellow, black, and white hair, and mismatched eyes as well. When we consider the schematic way in which geneology works in Westeros, this combination of traits is somewhat suggestive of one non-Lannister parent. But I can't explain the black hair.

Genetics may be a bit caricatural, but white hair is nevertheless closer to blond than black, and I consider it actually to be a shade of blond.

I think it's symbolically significant that Tyrion is consistently associated with fire and heat, and that many of his bad experiences are associated with ice and water (the Vale, the sea voyage to Pentos).

But he is not considered to be associated with heat anymore than his bad experiences are associated with ice. I find it reaching to use one experience to generalize about a global association with said elements.

Maybe it isn't necessary. But the fact remains that the only other people in the book who have dragon dreams (IIRC) are Dany and Shireen, who both have Targ blood. Animal dreams do seem to be connected with genes: for instance, all the Starks, and only the Starks, have wolf dreams.

Wrong, all wargs have wolf dreams, but that's beside the point. I don't know, again if find it a stretch to generalize from these examples that only a Targaryen can dream of dragons, especially when Tyrion specifically says that he dreamed about them during childhood and does not anymore.

We seem to have a fundamental disagreement about the possible limits of paternal bad behavior. I can't think of a single father figure in history or literature

Hah! Craster, Jaime, Augustus, Gothos, Moenghus, abaraham's Khais... the list goes on, and I didn't even touch on the famous figures like dark vador or mythical figures like Zeus.

[Guest Other-in-law]

I can't think of a single father figure in history or literature who (a) put his own son of the front lines of a battle in the hope of getting him killed or ( framed his own son for murder and condemned him to death. Compare the relatively indulgent way in which Tywin treats Cersei, who is much more of an asshole and a liability than Tyrion. I can't explain this double standard except by suggesting that Tywin believes Cersei is his and Tyrion is not.

While Tyrion was certainly framed, it's not clear to me that Tywin was particularly responsible for that. First and foremost, LF who provided the incriminating motive (rage inducing jousting dwarves), Cersei who probably believed he was guilty, piled up the damning witness list, and basically took lead role in the prosecution (she was the one who picked Gregor Clegane as champion), the Tyrells who quietly smoothed the way with false witnesses like Lady Merryweather, and Varys who may have had an interest in breaking Tyrion's attachment to his family and definitely had an interest in continuing to look useful to Cersei and Tywin.

What did Tywin do exactly? Forbade Tyrion cross-examining witnesses or even speaking. Not fair to be sure, but that could be normal in Westeros. I'm not sure what he would have done to falsely provide evidence against Tyrion; as far as I can tell he just listened to everyone else's false testimony.

[Olenna]

He annihilated the Raynes for less, it is consistent, for me, with how he was developped.

But the Reynes didn't just snub him. They rebelled. The two situations are not comparable.

But he is not considered to be associated with heat anymore than his bad experiences are associated with ice. I find it reaching to use one experience to generalize about a global association with said elements.

Here is the tally:

Fire/Heat

1. Tyrion uses wildfire in the Battle of the Blackwater.

2. He plans to turn the Vale into a "smoking ruin." (Note that his military strategies always involve lots of fire.)

3. He has a marked preference for warm weather, deciding to sail to Pentos or Dorne instead of the Wall.

4. He is defended by Oberyn Martell, a Targaryen in-law and secret loyalist, who uses the glare of the sun to score points against his opponent.

5. Tyrion himself has a "fiery" temperament.

Ice/Cold/Water

1. His miserable experience in the Eyrie.

2. His miserable sea voyage to Pentos.

3. His near-assassination in the Battle of the Blackwater occurs in the water, while he is running on the "bridge" from one wrecked ship to another.

4. While awaiting execution he is held in the black cells, which are known for their coldness.

None of this proves anything, of course, but it's interesting that Tyrion's successes and positive experiences are consistently associated with fire and heat, while his bad experiences are consistently associated with ice, cold, and water.

Tyrion's association with dragons isn't limited to his childhood dreams. He hangs out with the skulls in the basement with Shae, and while he is Master of Coin he is constantly thinking about how to create golden dragons. These activities strongly parallel those of Daenerys, who hangs out with her eggs and devotes a great deal of energy to hatch them.

Wrong, all wargs have wolf dreams.

Granted, but aren't all the wargs we meet in the story either Starks or wildlings--who share the same blood, according to Ygritte?

Hah! Craster, Jaime, Augustus, Gothos, Moenghus, abaraham's Khais... the list goes on, and I didn't even touch on the famous figures like dark vador or mythical figures like Zeus.

I don't know Gothos, Moenghus, or Khais, but it's not really fair to cite mythological or fantasy characters as examples, because those stories are supposed to be over the top and not representative of reality. ASoIAF is one of the rare fantasy novels that tries to portray believable human relationships, à la serious literature. The comparison should be with serious literature, not Star Wars.

What did Augustus do to his son (are you referring to Tiberius)? The common wisdom is that Tiberius was the unsavory half of that relationship.

Craster sucks as a father, to be sure, and there are plenty of abusive fathers out there. But it is really, really hard to find an example of a father who kills his kids. (I'm not counting the practice of killing infants, which, pace pro-lifers, is not the same as killing an older child. The killing of infants is a well-documented practice in civilizations where resources are scarce. And it's far from clear that Craster's sons are in fact dead.)

While Tyrion was certainly framed, it's not clear to me that Tywin was particularly responsible for that.

Thanks for the clarification, Other-in-law. Still, though, I have to ask, what parent doesn't give his or her kid the benefit of the doubt in a murder trial? Tywin seemed totally convinced of Tyrion's guilt, or at least willing to convict him, from the very beginning. Something doesn't add up.

[Errant Bard]

But the Reynes didn't just snub him. They rebelled. The two situations are not comparable.

They share the same elements where Tywin, and the Lannisters, are humiliated or made light of. This is something we are consistently told Tywin cannot stand.

Besides, you exaggerate a bit when saying Tywin hated Aerys. He is pissed off and resigns, sure. Ned resigned too when Robert pissed him off, and Robert did not rape Catelyn. If this is not comparable for you again, then take the Red Wedding, Robb did not rape Walder's Frey or Roose's wife, and those guys are not more prickly than Tywin.

None of this proves anything, of course, but it's interesting that Tyrion's successes and positive experiences are consistently associated with fire and heat, while his bad experiences are consistently associated with ice, cold, and water.

I just don't see it, what you describe are commonplace attributes that I can only see creating an association with the element when grasping at straws.

for example, I don't know why you bring the Eyrie, it is not associated with water or fire, but sky. The reason Tyrion had a miserable time was not the cold but the imprisonment, mistreatment and hostility of the hosts.

And looking at the list, it's easy to construct an argument like "while waiting for his execution, he was held in a damp cell", for example, Tyrion was recognized as a giant and made friends with Jon at the wall, the most icy place you can possibly find, or: a dornishman failed to save him, or: Tyrion used the river to win during the battle of blackwater.

I don't know, it just seems too far fetched to deduce anything from something as obvious as the fact that people prefer being warm and win in war rether than being held in damp cells or seasick

Tyrion's association with dragons isn't limited to his childhood dreams. He hangs out with the skulls in the basement with Shae, and while he is Master of Coin he is constantly thinking about how to create golden dragons. These activities strongly parallel those of Daenerys, who hangs out with her eggs and devotes a great deal of energy to hatch them.

You're pushing it. He gets in the room with the skulls to hide, not to get near the skulls, and he then reminisces. As for the dragons, surely you can't be serious? about 100% of the realm has a good experience when they get to have more money. Doesn't mean AFFC prologue Pate or Littlefinger are secret Targaryens.

Granted, but aren't all the wargs we meet in the story either Starks or wildlings--who share the same blood, according to Ygritte?

The children of the forest are said to be wargs as well. In any case if it's a weird genetical thing, it's more from the blood of the first men, I'd say. But anyway, my point stands, we don't have enough information to conclude only a group or another dreams of said beast, and common sense says that excitable children or teenager will dream about things that make them dream. AFFC prologue Pate dreams of dragons too, that doesn't make him a possible Targaryen or future master of coin, for example.

I don't know Gothos, Moenghus, or Khais, but it's not really fair to cite mythological or fantasy characters as examples, because those stories are supposed to be over the top and not representative of reality. ASoIAF is one of the rare fantasy novels that tries to portray believable human relationships, à la serious literature. The comparison should be with serious literature, not Star Wars.

Not fair? you said any father in litterature. What's not fair is to restrict your definition afterwards.

Anyway, would Arthur Pendragon do? If it doesn't, take a look at this page for some other historical cases

(By the way, Gothos is Icarium's father in Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen, Moenghus is Khellus father in Bakker's Prince of Nothing, and Abraham's Long Price quartet really deserves to be read)

What did Augustus do to his son (are you referring to Tiberius)? The common wisdom is that Tiberius was the unsavory half of that relationship.

I thought he sent him fight the germans in the hope of being rid of him but maybe I mistook him for another. I'll have to check.

Craster sucks as a father, to be sure, and there are plenty of abusive fathers out there. But it is really, really hard to find an example of a father who kills his kids. (I'm not counting the practice of killing infants, which, pace pro-lifers, is not the same as killing an older child. The killing of infants is a well-documented practice in civilizations where resources are scarce. And it's far from clear that Craster's sons are in fact dead.)

You're exaggerating again. Tywin does not kill Tyrion, and in fact says he arranged things for Tyrion to go tot he wall. Yes, he puts him in situations where he could be killed, but that not comparable.

Since I see you went from saying it is impossible to find to really hard to find, why wouldn't Tywin one of those hard to find examples, in a book serie that has already some fathers putting their sons in situation where or doing nothing when they are likely to be killed? (Thinking of Roose Bolton, walder Frey, Jeor Mormont, Randyll Tarly, etc)

[Olenna]

You exaggerate a bit when saying Tywin hated Aerys. He is pissed off and resigns, sure.

Well, he doesn't just resign--he switches sides. But whether he does so simply out of recognition that Aerys is losing, or out of personal hatred, remains to be seen.

I don't know why you bring the Eyrie, it is not associated with water or fire, but sky. The reason Tyrion had a miserable time was not the cold but the imprisonment, mistreatment and hostility of the hosts.

I mention the Eyrie because it is consistently cold and snowy, and Tyrion's misery there is due largely to being kept in a freezing outdoor cell.

I don't know, it just seems too far fetched to deduce anything from something as obvious as the fact that people prefer being warm and win in war rether than being held in damp cells or seasick

But compare the characters associated with ice/water: None of the Starks is fazed by cold weather at all, and Arya thrives in Braavos, a city on water. And all of the Stark kids have one parent whose sigil is a leaping trout and who is associated with the river.

He gets in the room with the skulls to hide, not to get near the skulls, and he then reminisces. As for the dragons, surely you can't be serious? about 100% of the realm has a good experience when they get to have more money.

I'm referring to the scene where he and Shae mess around in the room with the skulls. At one point Shae hides inside the mouth of one of the skulls. Now, if Tyrion turns out to be a Targaryen, a "dragon," that scene will prove to have foreshadowed Shae's death at Tyrion's hands (not to mention his eating her out...). A cool possibility, no?

As for the golden dragons: I bring this up because Tyrion thinks about them in rhetoric that suggests live dragons, while everyone else thinks about them in the way that people generally think about money. Others think about acquiring or spending golden dragons; Tyrion thinks about "breeding" golden dragons to "create" new ones, and about how they "got away" under Littlefinger's tenure. A stretch, I know. But the point is that Tyrion has live dragons on his mind and is symbolically associated with them throughout the story.

Not fair? you said any father in litterature. What's not fair is to restrict your definition afterwards.

I guess we have different definitions of literature.

Anyway, would Arthur Pendragon do?

What did he do? In any case, though, that's a myth.

If it doesn't, take a look at this page for some other historical cases

Well, apparently it does happen--I'll only remark that most examples of royal/noble filicide on that list either happened by accident (Ivan the Terrible) or because the son/daughter did something heinous first. But I stand corrected.

However--my (revised) point isn't so much that Tywin COULDN'T bring himself to kill Tyrion unless he thought he was someone else's son, but rather that his actions make more sense if he thought Tyrion was someone else's son. In other words, according to the information that we have in the books so far, we have to posit Tywin as a total psycho. But in the A + J = T scenario, his behavior suddenly makes sense.

(By the way, Gothos is Icarium's father in Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen, Moenghus is Khellus father in Bakker's Prince of Nothing, and Abraham's Long Price quartet really deserves to be read)

Thanks for the suggestion! I need something to tide me over till ADWD...

Tywin does not kill Tyrion, and in fact says he arranged things for Tyrion to go tot he wall.

We can't take this statement at face value, because Tyrion had a crossbow pointed at him when he said that.

(Thinking of Roose Bolton, walder Frey, Jeor Mormont, Randyll Tarly, etc)

Can you remind me what mortally dangerous situations Roose Bolton, Walder Frey and Jeor Mormont put their sons in?

As for Randyll Tarly, sending one's son to the Wall is hardly a death sentence.

So, to recap: A + J = T is a crackpot theory, and it will remain a crackpot theory until later books decide the issue. However, there are enough suggestive points in the text (Tyrion's white hair, interest in fire and association with dragons, and Tywin's irrational hatred for him) to get one thinking. I certainly can't prove that it is true. What I hope to have demonstrated is that it is possible.

[Errant Bard]

But compare the characters associated with ice/water: None of the Starks is fazed by cold weather at all, and Arya thrives in Braavos, a city on water. And all of the Stark kids have one parent whose sigil is a leaping trout and who is associated with the river.

They still prefer being warm and win to being in a damp cold cell, and noone associate them with fire because of that.

Besides, Robb burned his way through the riverlands, Arya has a fiery temperament and doesn't like to bath, or Rickon is like a wild flame, so much that shaggy is described as having eyes burning. If those are associated with ice it's because they are Starks and Northerners, not because of any quality of their own.

Can you remind me what mortally dangerous situations Roose Bolton, Walder Frey and Jeor Mormont put their sons in?

As for Randyll Tarly, sending one's son to the Wall is hardly a death sentence.

Roose Bolton tells specifically to all of the Northern Lords that his son Ramsay should be tried and killed, and at this point Catelyn thinks "this is a cold man" (she actually thinks that twice, but I cannot recall when the second time happens). Same thing for Jeor Mormont, he regrets that his son chose the coward's way and fled. Ned wanted Jorah to die, badly. Both of these instances are similar to Tywin's situation, in that he says something but might thing something else, and that the judgement is not in the father's hands and he doesn't do anything.

Walder Frey doesn't really care for his children individually, he tells Catelyn that he's ready to make them fight and die, he'll always have some alive at the end, it is supported by the way in how he doesn't bat an eye at Catelyn threatening family in Jinglebell. Similarly to Cersei vs Tyrion, he will not intervene when his children kill each other either. In the same situation as Tywin, he would likely ask for Tyrion to be killed, as there are no adverse effect on his house power.

Randyll Tarly specifically warned Sam that if he didn't go away, he would kill him himself, and he knew the Wall would be the death of him considering Sam's disposition, and it would have been if not for Jon. In Tywin's situation, he would perhaps, like Tywin, have negotiated for Sam to go to the wall, but he would likely just have been happy to be rid of someone he hated.

And once again, Tywin did not put Tyrion in a mortally dangerous situation, the tyrells and Cersei did. Tywin just failed to get him out by some magic trick or feel sorry for him.

Arthur had a little squabble with his son Mordred. I guess that it's a myth yes.

About the filicide page, note that it is far from exhaustive, and does not list indirect cases like where the son was put in a dangerous situation on purpose.

ETA: Yes, of course it is possible. Even Nightflyer's theories are possible. It's just a matter of probability, and I think it is very improbable given the flimsiness of the arguments. Of course it doesn't help that my feelings about what it would imply about the mechanism of the world and GRRM's storytelling if it were true would be summed up neatly by "it sucks". (More specifically, I loathe the blood=everything rope as well as the "hidden heirs". We beheaded our kings here for a reason)

[Maia]

Olenna, while I agree with most of your arguments, this page on filicide is very incomplete. In certain societies, rulers killing their adult sons was quite usual. If laws of succession where shaky and/or distinctions between claims and rights of sons of the Queen, those of junior wives and those of concubines were more or less theoretical, adult sons tended to be a danger to the ruling monarch, because they were strongly motivated to make a grab for the throne soonest. And crown changing hands was inaugurated by massacres of the new king's brothers and their families, so these princes were between the rock and the hard place, too. Thus, a king, who lived long enough for his sons to reach mid-twenties often had to kill a few of them - out of healthy self-preservation, out of paranoia, or because he wanted to secure position of the favored son, whom he pegged for his successor.

To name but a few examples - the father of Tigranes the Great killed all his sons (about a dozen), but this one, who was a hostage of the Medes at the time and thus beyond his reach. Herod the Great only had 4 sons, but he killed all of them eventually. Mithridates VI of Pontus killed a few of his sons. Constantin the Great, the founder of Byzantium, killed his eldest son Crispus. Etc, etc. These are the more famous cases, but it was a routine occasion, that happened every generation in some societies.

BTW, a roman pater familias had a a right to execute any family member for any reason (or without), including his adult sons and some used this right as late as late Republic/early Imperium. They were mostly seen as crazy and unsavory for doing this, since a powerful Roman rarely had more than one son, to avoid splitting the family resources, but they did exist.

Not to mention that killing one's adult daughters if they are seen as stepping out of line is still sadly widespread among many peoples.

As regards Tyrion's connection to dragons and fire, I couldn't agree more. As much as people say that "anybody" would dream of dragons as an unhappy kid, _none_ of teh PoVs except for Tyrion and Dany did, and they have been unappy enough. BTW, I always found different reactions of Tyrion (as a kid) and Arya to the dragon bones to be a strong hint. Tyrion was fascinated and _felt_ the bones _soak in the heat_ and _like_ it, while Arya was just terrified.

[Ran]

One should note that at least as far as the West goes, there's a notable shift in attitudes to relations between the ancient world and the Middle Ages. In Rome, for example, a man could adopt a grown man into his family and establish him as heir -- it really wasn't a big deal.

This stopped happening in the Middle Ages, pretty much, because of an increasing concern over blood relation in connection to inheritance, and I think consequently examples of filicide start to become rarer. Not entirely gone, of course, but rarer anyways. Brothers killing one another to secure their inheritance, OTOH, starts to happen more; the father won't weed the garden, so to speak, so the weeds have to do it for themselves.

[Errant Bard]

As much as people say that "anybody" would dream of dragons as an unhappy kid, _none_ of teh PoVs except for Tyrion and Dany did, and they have been unappy enough.

How many reminisce about what they dreamt before their current struggle? I think that's two: Bran and Tyrion, and I don't think it's really convincing.

As for non PoVs and the fascination of dragons:

• "I should like to see a dragon." Roone was the youngest of them, a chunky boy still two years shy of manhood. "I should like that very much."
  
• The Sphinx reached for his bowcase. "It's bed for me as well. I expect I'll dream of dragons and glass candles."
  
• Dany got enough custom just showing them around to fund an army.
  
• Euron dreamed of dragon, got an egg but ended up throwing it overboard when it didn't hatch.
  
• "Forgive me, my queen, but it is your dragons he dreams of."
  
• If I had wings I could fly back to Winterfell and see for myself. And if it was true, I'd just fly away, fly up past the moon and the shining stars, and see all the things in Old Nan's stories, dragons and sea monsters and the Titan of Braavos, and maybe I wouldn't ever fly back unless I wanted to.
  
• Shireen get nightmares about them. Sure, she has some Targaryen blood somewhere, but if we are consistent with you interpretation that Arya was scared of giant monster skulls because she wasn't a targaryen, and Tyrion wasn't because he is one, then it would make Shireen *not* have Targaryen blood.
  

And finally the full quote this sprung from:

"So they say," Tyrion replied. "Sad, isn't it? When I was your age, used to dream of having a dragon of my own."

"You did?" the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

"Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back." Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. "I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister." Jon Snow was staring at him, a look equal parts horror and fascination. Tyrion guffawed. "Don't look at me that way, bastard. I know your secret. You've dreamt the same kind of dreams."

[...]

"No," Tyrion admitted, "not me. I seldom even dream of dragons anymore. There are no dragons."

Frankly, I don't see how this makes Tyrion different from the rest. He doesn't get mystical dreams, he just wants power, like the others, and all this is spurred by the abuse he suffers at home. When he grew up and realised that was just a childish dream, he mostly stopped longing for that power.

Funny how Tyrion dreaming of Dragons makes him a Targaryen, and Jon dreaming of Winterfell also makes him a Targaryen, by the way. I eagerly await to see how the "white lion" line of the prophecy will be twisted to signify Tyrion is even more a Targaryen.

ETA: One more question, one that I'm genuinely perplexed about: Why do you want Tyrion to be a Targaryen? All it does is imply that blood is more important than personality, and that rape is acceptable if it ends up that the children got that magical blood in them in the end. Can't a man dream of things because of feelings and not of blood? Can't a man be great without his father being from the "superior" race? (Weee, Aryans, everyone has to have their blood to be cool)