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Yeade

Le Grande Northern Conspiracy, Parte the Fourth

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Ahh, okay. I agree with you that Hal is most likely not a good bet for HM. But the more I look for Harwin, the more suspicious I get. Where is he? :lol:

Eta- I'm glad I'm not the only one who ponders such deep questions while walking the dog ;)

I sort of favour Benjen as the HM in spite of everything, but here's a question. The crypts are often noted as a mysterious place and are accessed via a spiral stair, while Bran notes a few idiosyncrasies in Winterfell's construction. Finally, Jon reminisces about being trained to defend a spiral stair while at Winterfell with Robb. But why? Is this just general training or does this suggest you can access Winterfell through the crypts, and does this tie into Mance's plan with the crypts?

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Anyone know anything else about Alesander Frey?

“Alesander. Symond’s son. Alyx is his sister.” He raised a cup toward where she danced with Robin Flint. “Will Alesander be playing for us tonight?”

Ser Ryman squinted at her. “Not him. He’s away.” He wiped sweat from his brow and lurched to his feet. “Pardons, my lady. Pardons.” Catelyn watched him stagger toward the door. (Storm, p. 578).

and

Catelyn slapped him so hard she broke his lip. Olyvar, she thought, and Perwyn, Alesander, all absent. And Roslin wept . . .(Storm, p. 581).

He wasn't at he Red Wedding, but it's hard to say whether he would be a Stark sympathizer like we suspect Olyvar and Perwyn may be. His father is Symond Frey, who was trying to spy on Manderly in White Harbor (according to wiki, didn't check reference), and then became Frey Pie.

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Regarding Hallis Mollen possibly being the northman at Brienne's trial, Lady Gwynhyfvar, I think you noted that Hal is with Catelyn when she swears Brienne into her service. Wouldn't Brienne recognize him then? Though I suppose there's still room for speculation as Brienne may have been in a state of shock and thus unlikely to remember some random northerner she met half a year or so ago when there's UnCat to occupy her attention. In the end, there are simply too many missing pieces of information for a definitive conclusion to be reached about Harwin's and Hal's whereabouts, IMO.

Heyo Winter Comin', while there are a lot of theories about the Winterfell crypts, I feel most must be considered at least slightly crackpot for the nonce because, again, nobody but GRRM knows any better. The one exception being that something related to R+L=J awaits Jon there, even if this is just a figurative hint that Lyanna is his mother.

Likewise, Mance Rayder's intentions in seeking out the crypts are unknown to us readers and will probably remain so until TWOW. These could very well be practical, IMO, in terms of securing a hideout or escape route, and need not involve the supernatural, as commonly discussed. Though... If Mance has indeed evaded the wrath of the Boltons by taking shelter in the crypts, wouldn't it pretty much confirm that Lady Dustin is conspiring with Manderly? Besides Theon, who had not yet told the secret to Abel or his washerwomen in their last ADWD chapter, only Lady Dustin and her men know the location of the entrance. How else would this information have reached Mance's ears if not through Manderly, who's presumed to have a prior association with Abel?

nenya~, about all I can recall is that Alesander is a singer. Which may actually be reason enough to keep him from the Red Wedding because loose lips sink secret plots to break guest right and bards are notoriously fond of spinning tales.

Finally, a very belated reply to a sound criticism of the proposed northern strategy to let Stannis and the Boltons bleed one another before dealing with the weakened victor.

Northern lords still have to participate in the fighting; they can't just sit on the side watching Stannis and Bolton fight. Manderly's forces will be fighting the Freys most likely. Don't tell me they will have no losses while Stannis takes all.

I don't think anyone's arguing that the northmen expect to take no casualties; after all, the bulk of Stannis's forces is comprised of the mountain clansmen and the ragtag army originally rallied, as the theory goes, by Alysane Mormont to retake Deepwood Motte. However, just as the She-Bear only had to lend a helping hand at Deepwood Motte because Stannis unexpectedly arrives, rather than having to liberate the keep from the ironborn on her own, splitting the inevitable losses with Stannis's southron knights should leave the northmen in a relatively better position than if they had to act alone. Considered together with speculations that Robett Glover leads a second host from White Harbor and there are up to a thousand stragglers from Robb's army, some perhaps armed and organized, wandering about, the Stark loyalists are almost certain to outnumber whoever the victor at Winterfell is and, ultimately, that's all that matters when it comes to who calls the shots in the battle's aftermath.

What's more, casualties are not evenly spread across the whole of an engaged force, and different actions result in different butcher's bills. Manderly will most likely be fighting the Freys, yes, but the plan is probably to ambush them on the march or when the Frey van engages Stannis. Surprise attacks tend to be disproportionately harder on the surprised. Along the same lines, the northmen with Stannis might be able to finagle an order of battle wherein the southerners are in the front. "Lead us to glorious triumph over the usurping traitors, O rightful king of Westeros!" maybe, lol. It's an accepted maxim that the first to meet the enemy will suffer the greater part of the casualties. Tywin applies this principle when he assigns Tyrion's mountain clansmen to the van and Jon suggests that Stannis do the same with the wildlings until they're whittled down in numbers, leaving his army composed primarily of northmen, as is politic in his bid for northern support.

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I sort of favour Benjen as the HM in spite of everything, but here's a question. The crypts are often noted as a mysterious place and are accessed via a spiral stair, while Bran notes a few idiosyncrasies in Winterfell's construction. Finally, Jon reminisces about being trained to defend a spiral stair while at Winterfell with Robb. But why? Is this just general training or does this suggest you can access Winterfell through the crypts, and does this tie into Mance's plan with the crypts?

Well, it certainly suggests secret access to me.. :) But I believe it's Benjen who will use it.

I have to oppose Yeade a bit , here..I do not assume Mance/Abel had a prior relationship to Manderly ,but certainly Benjen would have had,as his former acting overlord during RR.

And I do assume Lady Dustin has been conspiring with Manderly all along. To me, that's the most logical conclusion considering the way her story to Theon doesn't add up ,considering her actions ( in spite of what she says ), and the fact that both of the people that tied her and her brothers to the Boltons are dead.. Domeric who was murdered ( even according to Roose ) and Bethany who may have been ( if so, in a cruelly protracted way ). Roose has no northern allies inside WF, only his own men and the Freys. The only real northern allies he ever had were the Karstarks , and they're with Stannis.

It's Theon who remembers the " defending a spiral staircase" lesson ( in the escape chapter ) which instantly brings to mind what would be needed to attack it successfully. The way would need to be clear, with a few loyal men at the top to allow the attackers to mount. Of course it would be best if no one knows the attack is coming.. or even where the door is.

I think Mance had/has a plan for the crypts .. but Benjen is there before him . I believe the signs are that there is a passage , that Benjen has had contact with Manderly, and that some of the forces Manderly has been gathering will be coming through to take WF from within.

I"ll check back , but as far as I remember , it was Stannis' plan to put wildlings in his van. Jon considered that a waste of needed men , asked Stannis to leave the wildlings with him, and he'd show Stannis where to get more men... pointing Stannis to the clans. Stannis thought it was a good deal to trade 300 for 3000. Stannis has no wildlings with him.

As I see it , the northmen with Stannis , while putting their lives on the line , are doing it primarily to make sure Stannis doesn't queer their original plan. It's not taking advantage of his plan ,it's damage control for their own.

Before Stannis came along , they would have had about equal numbers to Roose inside WF , with more coming through the crypts, and the element of surprise. Of course it absolutely helps if Stannis has suceeded in drawing out the Frey forces..not so much, if too many of the other northern men are sent out as well.

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bemused, you're probably right about it being Stannis's plan to have the wildlings in his van. Jon then co-opts them to man the Wall, advising Stannis on how to win the mountain clans to his cause in exchange. The principle that the lead forces will take the most severe casualties still stands, though.

You and I don't agree on Benjen Stark's potential role in future events, true, or even on the likelihood of the Winterfell crypts allowing secret passage to wherever as well as keeping safe the magical wonders of ages past. My default position is to be skeptical of such theories for now. Of course, that's definitely no reason for you and others to stop speculating, and GRRM could surprise me in the end, as is his wont.

However, I do think it's reasonable to assume that Manderly and Mance Rayder had some sort of contact prior to their arrival in Winterfell. Abel and his washerwomen are let in the gates only because Manderly brought no singers from White Harbor for the wedding. That's a little too convenient, IMO, to not be prearranged between the two.

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However, I do think it's reasonable to assume that Manderly and Mance Rayder had some sort of contact prior to their arrival in Winterfell. Abel and his washerwomen are let in the gates only because Manderly brought no singers from White Harbor for the wedding. That's a little too convenient, IMO, to not be prearranged between the two.

I definitely agree with this. There's collusion going on there.

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Yeade ..I agree that Manderly leaving his singers at home is no coincidence, but I think it happened as a result of word reaching him from The Liddle (AKA Myrtle , the sixth , older spear wife ). Torren is the only leader of the main clans to be MIA , yet he was the first we were aware of in the narrative, of being strangely in the know.

There is collusion, for sure ... but whose ? Mance/Abel is a johnny-come-lately to the GNC. He never made any claim to have been as far south as White Harbour in his forays as Abel. Why would he be trusted at first contact ? How could he prove he was sent by Jon ?..I think even accompanied by the Liddle ,it would have been difficult and risky to get to WH first , risky to rendezvous at Barrowton, and suspicious for Manderly to have sent his singers home from there. Manderly must have set out from WH without them.

But word / warning from the Liddle would be trusted . It would have been received relatively quickly, because there are signs that a sophisticated clandestine communications system exists in the North ( and BTW Jon also mentions the Umber's signal fires, yet another sign, which I think I left out of my thread ). Mance may know that accommodations will be made for his party, but I think it's way out there to assume ( as some do ) that he would have been let in on everything the GNC was up to... And therefore "Myrtle" needs to accompany him , partly to protect him from GNC members who don't know him, or what he's about.. partly to keep him from inadvertently upsetting their apple cart.

It's OK to be sceptical of the existence of a secret passage / escape tunnel , I guess.. However , it was standard practice in the architecture of medieval castles , as far as I know.. Bran the builder did everything else at WF on a grand and sophisticated scale.. he built the Wall and reportedly Storm's End ..both of which we know from the text have magical defenses.. So I'm entirely sceptical of the idea that he would have excluded the seat of his own house from such an advantage ..

Have to leave it there, for now. :) ..I'll be back..

ETA : Gee I can't believe I was the last one here ,so I'll just edit..Once again , sorry if this is old stuff , but I've been picking at those 600 poor sods left at the Red Fork , and Lord Blackwood , and such... ( before anyone said "Benjen " ;) )

Dropping right back to the riverlands , I also noted that not only does Lord Blackwood give that telling little smile nenya mentions when Jaime asks him if he'd tell if he had been in contact with the Blackfish, but he later behaves in a way very reminiscent of "Husband" when Jaime , Brienne and Cleos stopped at Shama's inn.. In that case "Husband" tried to direct them on a path that would lead them to the BWB.

Lord Blackwood is a little more subtle , but perhaps with a similar intent.( to lead the BWB to Jaime ) He asks if Jaime will stay to eat. Jaime replies...

“Some other time, my lord.” The castle was starving; no good would be served by Jaime stealing food from their mouths. “I cannot linger. Riverrun awaits."

“Riverrun? Or King’s Landing?” ...( Lord Blackwood )

Jaime replies "Both"..but it seems Lord Blackwood was trying to determine Jaime's route.. and even though Jaime does not return by the same route he took on his arrival, because he said Riverrun first, there are only so many routes he can take. ...Makes you wonder if the BWB had earlier projected that he'd be going on to KL..and that's why Brienne arrives so late at night.

For example , I wonder about Hildy ,the "No turnips for you, then" girl with Lord Bracken..whose nipples Jaime thinks of later. According to Bracken ...

“She’s a prize of war.” Bracken retrieved his breeches from the floor and shook them out. “She belonged to one of Blackwood’s sworn swords till I split his head in two. Put your hands down, woman.My lord of Lannister wants a proper look at those teats.”

I'm betting Hildy could have got more information out of Jonos after Jaime left.. Jonos expecting Jaime to have young Bethany Blackwood in tow.

And then Jaime's stop in Pennytree intrigues me. Do we see a sign of the 600 missing men, here ? The man who calls down from the holdfast says ..

“They was king’s men burned our village,” one man called down. “Before that, some other king’s men took our sheep. They were for a different king, but that didn’t matter none to our sheep. King’s men killed Harsley and Ser Ormond, and raped Lacey till she died.”

It may be a slim chance, but what if the man was listing the ills done them in reverse order ? After all , Jaime notices that for every burned cottage in the village , there are three that have been rebuilt , so it doesn't seem that's really recent development.

Raping Lacey to death , sounds like the Mountain or his men under Polliver ( and the man never said which King's men they were ).. I somehow can't trust Roose Bolton's word that Gregor wouldn't cross the Red Fork..

The "other" King's men taking the sheep sounds like men who just need to feed themselves. No other damage mentioned.

The ones who burned the village..Lorch ? Or more likely ,Gregor's first rampage ? The only "other KIng's men" are the sheep theives. And though there have been men from more than two kings, fighting and foraging.. the way it's worded , the first and third ( simply King's men )may have been committed by the same men , acting first in Joffrey's name and later in Tommen's .

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Yeade ..I agree that Manderly leaving his singers at home is no coincidence, but I think it happened as a result of word reaching him from The Liddle (AKA Myrtle , the sixth , older spear wife ). Torren is the only leader of the main clans to be MIA , yet he was the first we were aware of in the narrative, of being strangely in the know.

There is collusion, for sure ... but whose ? Mance/Abel is a johnny-come-lately to the GNC. He never made any claim to have been as far south as White Harbour in his forays as Abel. Why would he be trusted at first contact ? How could he prove he was sent by Jon ?..I think even accompanied by the Liddle ,it would have been difficult and risky to get to WH first , risky to rendezvous at Barrowton, and suspicious for Manderly to have sent his singers home from there. Manderly must have set out from WH without them.

But word / warning from the Liddle would be trusted . It would have been received relatively quickly, because there are signs that a sophisticated clandestine communications system exists in the North ( and BTW Jon also mentions the Umber's signal fires, yet another sign, which I think I left out of my thread ). Mance may know that accommodations will be made for his party, but I think it's way out there to assume ( as some do ) that he would have been let in on everything the GNC was up to... And therefore "Myrtle" needs to accompany him , partly to protect him from GNC members who don't know him, or what he's about.. partly to keep him from inadvertently upsetting their apple cart.

It's OK to be sceptical of the existence of a secret passage / escape tunnel , I guess.. However , it was standard practice in the architecture of medieval castles , as far as I know.. Bran the builder did everything else at WF on a grand and sophisticated scale.. he built the Wall and reportedly Storm's End ..both of which we know from the text have magical defenses.. So I'm entirely sceptical of the idea that he would have excluded the seat of his own house from such an advantage ..

Have to leave it there, for now. :) ..I'll be back..

ETA : Gee I can't believe I was the last one here ,so I'll just edit..Once again , sorry if this is old stuff , but I've been picking at those 600 poor sods left at the Red Fork , and Lord Blackwood , and such... ( before anyone said "Benjen " ;) )

Dropping right back to the riverlands , I also noted that not only does Lord Blackwood give that telling little smile nenya mentions when Jaime asks him if he'd tell if he had been in contact with the Blackfish, but he later behaves in a way very reminiscent of "Husband" when Jaime , Brienne and Cleos stopped at Shama's inn.. In that case "Husband" tried to direct them on a path that would lead them to the BWB.

Lord Blackwood is a little more subtle , but perhaps with a similar intent.( to lead the BWB to Jaime ) He asks if Jaime will stay to eat. Jaime replies...

“Some other time, my lord.” The castle was starving; no good would be served by Jaime stealing food from their mouths. “I cannot linger. Riverrun awaits."

“Riverrun? Or King’s Landing?” ...( Lord Blackwood )

Jaime replies "Both"..but it seems Lord Blackwood was trying to determine Jaime's route.. and even though Jaime does not return by the same route he took on his arrival, because he said Riverrun first, there are only so many routes he can take. ...Makes you wonder if the BWB had earlier projected that he'd be going on to KL..and that's why Brienne arrives so late at night.

For example , I wonder about Hildy ,the "No turnips for you, then" girl with Lord Bracken..whose nipples Jaime thinks of later. According to Bracken ...

“She’s a prize of war.” Bracken retrieved his breeches from the floor and shook them out. “She belonged to one of Blackwood’s sworn swords till I split his head in two. Put your hands down, woman.My lord of Lannister wants a proper look at those teats.”

I'm betting Hildy could have got more information out of Jonos after Jaime left.. Jonos expecting Jaime to have young Bethany Blackwood in tow.

And then Jaime's stop in Pennytree intrigues me. Do we see a sign of the 600 missing men, here ? The man who calls down from the holdfast says ..

“They was king’s men burned our village,” one man called down. “Before that, some other king’s men took our sheep. They were for a different king, but that didn’t matter none to our sheep. King’s men killed Harsley and Ser Ormond, and raped Lacey till she died.”

It may be a slim chance, but what if the man was listing the ills done them in reverse order ? After all , Jaime notices that for every burned cottage in the village , there are three that have been rebuilt , so it doesn't seem that's really recent development.

Raping Lacey to death , sounds like the Mountain or his men under Polliver ( and the man never said which King's men they were ).. I somehow can't trust Roose Bolton's word that Gregor wouldn't cross the Red Fork..

The "other" King's men taking the sheep sounds like men who just need to feed themselves. No other damage mentioned.

The ones who burned the village..Lorch ? Or more likely ,Gregor's first rampage ? The only "other KIng's men" are the sheep theives. And though there have been men from more than two kings, fighting and foraging.. the way it's worded , the first and third ( simply King's men )may have been committed by the same men , acting first in Joffrey's name and later in Tommen's .

I like your bit about Lord Blackwood but I think in talking about King's men it might just be a bit of colour to illustrate that neither side is particularly noble, and the smallfolk don't really care about who they serve when they just get screwed over. Who knows. Too bad we never got a pov in the Westerlands campaign, those sheep the mormonts were driving towards the Riverlands belonged to somebody that now have no sheep!

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Yeade ..I agree that Manderly leaving his singers at home is no coincidence, but I think it happened as a result of word reaching him from The Liddle (AKA Myrtle , the sixth , older spear wife ). Torren is the only leader of the main clans to be MIA , yet he was the first we were aware of in the narrative, of being strangely in the know.

There is collusion, for sure ... but whose ? Mance/Abel is a johnny-come-lately to the GNC. He never made any claim to have been as far south as White Harbour in his forays as Abel. Why would he be trusted at first contact ? How could he prove he was sent by Jon ?..I think even accompanied by the Liddle ,it would have been difficult and risky to get to WH first , risky to rendezvous at Barrowton, and suspicious for Manderly to have sent his singers home from there. Manderly must have set out from WH without them.

But word / warning from the Liddle would be trusted . It would have been received relatively quickly, because there are signs that a sophisticated clandestine communications system exists in the North ( and BTW Jon also mentions the Umber's signal fires, yet another sign, which I think I left out of my thread ). Mance may know that accommodations will be made for his party, but I think it's way out there to assume ( as some do ) that he would have been let in on everything the GNC was up to... And therefore "Myrtle" needs to accompany him , partly to protect him from GNC members who don't know him, or what he's about.. partly to keep him from inadvertently upsetting their apple cart.

It's OK to be sceptical of the existence of a secret passage / escape tunnel , I guess.. However , it was standard practice in the architecture of medieval castles , as far as I know.. Bran the builder did everything else at WF on a grand and sophisticated scale.. he built the Wall and reportedly Storm's End ..both of which we know from the text have magical defenses.. So I'm entirely sceptical of the idea that he would have excluded the seat of his own house from such an advantage ..

Have to leave it there, for now. :) ..I'll be back..

ETA : Gee I can't believe I was the last one here ,so I'll just edit..Once again , sorry if this is old stuff , but I've been picking at those 600 poor sods left at the Red Fork , and Lord Blackwood , and such... ( before anyone said "Benjen " ;) )

Dropping right back to the riverlands , I also noted that not only does Lord Blackwood give that telling little smile nenya mentions when Jaime asks him if he'd tell if he had been in contact with the Blackfish, but he later behaves in a way very reminiscent of "Husband" when Jaime , Brienne and Cleos stopped at Shama's inn.. In that case "Husband" tried to direct them on a path that would lead them to the BWB.

Lord Blackwood is a little more subtle , but perhaps with a similar intent.( to lead the BWB to Jaime ) He asks if Jaime will stay to eat. Jaime replies...

“Some other time, my lord.” The castle was starving; no good would be served by Jaime stealing food from their mouths. “I cannot linger. Riverrun awaits."

“Riverrun? Or King’s Landing?” ...( Lord Blackwood )

Jaime replies "Both"..but it seems Lord Blackwood was trying to determine Jaime's route.. and even though Jaime does not return by the same route he took on his arrival, because he said Riverrun first, there are only so many routes he can take. ...Makes you wonder if the BWB had earlier projected that he'd be going on to KL..and that's why Brienne arrives so late at night.

For example , I wonder about Hildy ,the "No turnips for you, then" girl with Lord Bracken..whose nipples Jaime thinks of later. According to Bracken ...

“She’s a prize of war.” Bracken retrieved his breeches from the floor and shook them out. “She belonged to one of Blackwood’s sworn swords till I split his head in two. Put your hands down, woman.My lord of Lannister wants a proper look at those teats.”

I'm betting Hildy could have got more information out of Jonos after Jaime left.. Jonos expecting Jaime to have young Bethany Blackwood in tow.

And then Jaime's stop in Pennytree intrigues me. Do we see a sign of the 600 missing men, here ? The man who calls down from the holdfast says ..

“They was king’s men burned our village,” one man called down. “Before that, some other king’s men took our sheep. They were for a different king, but that didn’t matter none to our sheep. King’s men killed Harsley and Ser Ormond, and raped Lacey till she died.”

It may be a slim chance, but what if the man was listing the ills done them in reverse order ? After all , Jaime notices that for every burned cottage in the village , there are three that have been rebuilt , so it doesn't seem that's really recent development.

Raping Lacey to death , sounds like the Mountain or his men under Polliver ( and the man never said which King's men they were ).. I somehow can't trust Roose Bolton's word that Gregor wouldn't cross the Red Fork..

The "other" King's men taking the sheep sounds like men who just need to feed themselves. No other damage mentioned.

The ones who burned the village..Lorch ? Or more likely ,Gregor's first rampage ? The only "other KIng's men" are the sheep theives. And though there have been men from more than two kings, fighting and foraging.. the way it's worded , the first and third ( simply King's men )may have been committed by the same men , acting first in Joffrey's name and later in Tommen's .

I completely agree with your observation about Tytos' query of Jaime's destination. I noted in my full length Riverlands essay that it seemed as though he wanted to know exactly which way they would be traveling, it's in much the same vein as the earlier noted statement by Lord Karyl Vance urging Jaime to attend to the Blackwood situation personally. I think both are evidence of continued collusion by the river lords.

Fascinating observation about the groups of "king's men" While heading west from the east bank of the Green Fork doesn't seem realistic at first glance, it may be if they were pursued. The pursuers (Gregor's group) could then be the group that burned the village in retaliation for the villagers giving "aid" to the pursued in the form of their sheep.

I actually have more thoughts about this, as well as a (possibly) new observation about Lady Barbrey, but I'm typing on my phone and late for an appointment so I'll have to return later :)

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“They was king’s men burned our village,” one man called down. “Before that, some other king’s men took our sheep. They were for a different king, but that didn’t matter none to our sheep. King’s men killed Harsley and Ser Ormond, and raped Lacey till she died.”

It may be a slim chance, but what if the man was listing the ills done them in reverse order ? After all , Jaime notices that for every burned cottage in the village , there are three that have been rebuilt , so it doesn't seem that's really recent development.

Raping Lacey to death , sounds like the Mountain or his men under Polliver ( and the man never said which King's men they were ).. I somehow can't trust Roose Bolton's word that Gregor wouldn't cross the Red Fork..

The "other" King's men taking the sheep sounds like men who just need to feed themselves. No other damage mentioned.

The ones who burned the village..Lorch ? Or more likely ,Gregor's first rampage ? The only "other KIng's men" are the sheep theives. And though there have been men from more than two kings, fighting and foraging.. the way it's worded , the first and third ( simply King's men )may have been committed by the same men , acting first in Joffrey's name and later in Tommen's .

Harsley and Ser Ormond are mentioned in SoS as those killed by Lannisters.

Tom Sevenstrings took up the count. “Alyn of Winterfell, Joth Quick-bow, Little Matt and his sister Randa, Anvil Ryn. Ser Ormond. Ser Dudley. Pate of Mory, Pate of Lancewood, Old Pate, and Pate of Shermer’s Grove. Blind Wyl the Whittler. Goodwife Maerie. Maerie the Whore. Becca the Baker. Ser Raymun Darry, Lord Darry, young Lord Darry. The Bastard of Bracken. Fletcher Will. Harsley. Goodwife Nolla—”

“Enough.” The Hound’s face was tight with anger. “You’re making noise. These names mean nothing. Who were they?”

“People,” said Lord Beric. “People great and small, young and old. Good people and bad people, who died on the points of Lannister spears or saw their bellies opened by Lannister swords.” (Storm, p. 385).

For the other stuff, it would probably be hard to decipher who did what. The westermen stole sheep, burned crops, raped/murdered near the Stoney Sept at one point. The Karstark men raped and murdered as well when they were looking for Jaime (The Mad Huntsman had 3 Karstark men in cages in the Stoney Sept). And then there's Gregor's men as well as the Bloody Mummers that were running around so much that I can't remember where the hell they've been lol. I'll need to skim some of Arya's chapters and other SoS chapters again.

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I've just about completed my "GNC Locator" which is a comprehensive (I hope) database of all the characters associated with the GNC in both the North and the Riverlands (and them some...) Still a work in progress as far as adding notes and references, but I think I've accounted for all the major players and most of the minor ones as well... I used a pretty broad net in an attempt to see patterns emerge, I think I see some interesting things and am interested to know if others do as well. This database should be sortable, so you can view the list by House or by location. I'd appreciate any feedback, especially if I've missed anything or attributed anything incorrectly. Thanks to nenya for the help in fishing players, locations and references.

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I've just about completed my "GNC Locator" which is a comprehensive (I hope) database of all the characters associated with the GNC in both the North and the Riverlands (and them some...) Still a work in progress as far as adding notes and references, but I think I've accounted for all the major players and most of the minor ones as well... I used a pretty broad net in an attempt to see patterns emerge, I think I see some interesting things and am interested to know if others do as well. This database should be sortable, so you can view the list by House or by location. I'd appreciate any feedback, especially if I've missed anything or attributed anything incorrectly. Thanks to nenya for the help in fishing players, locations and references.

This is insane and also awesome.

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I've just about completed my "GNC Locator" which is a comprehensive (I hope) database of all the characters associated with the GNC in both the North and the Riverlands (and them some...) Still a work in progress as far as adding notes and references, but I think I've accounted for all the major players and most of the minor ones as well... I used a pretty broad net in an attempt to see patterns emerge, I think I see some interesting things and am interested to know if others do as well. This database should be sortable, so you can view the list by House or by location. I'd appreciate any feedback, especially if I've missed anything or attributed anything incorrectly. Thanks to nenya for the help in fishing players, locations and references.

I've already said it but :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

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This is insane and also awesome.

I've been called both :P

I've already said it but :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

Awwww... :blushing:

Seriously, this was my pleasure (if a somewhat neurotic one...) Hope it's useful :)

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I've just about completed my "GNC Locator"

So amazing. Thanks for the effort Lady Gwyn!

I can only feedback that it was worth your effort and will be very useful for lots of people. 217 characters!

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I posted this on the "I never noticed that" thread earlier today and got redirected here by the good Lady G:

Also I've just noticed that Lady Dustin is maybe in on a plan involving Mance/Abel and thus probably Wyman - crypt viewing aside.

Lady Dustin laughed. "Are all Freys such fools? Look at him. Hold a dagger? He hardly has the strength to hold a spoon."

When earlier in Theon's chapter:

Theon was bent over a wooden bowl finishing the last of his own portion of his pease porridge when a ligh touch on his shoulder made him drop his spoon' - the touch is from Holly, the spearwife.

May be small, but the choice of utensil and simile by Lady Dustin seems a tad specific - Holly probably gives a sit rep to the lords in on the plan, how Theon is weak, broken, probably not the murderer, while trying to turn him to help "Arya".

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I really need to do a reread, but when do the Boltons become aware that Stannis is marching on Winterfell, and why doesn't Manderly send a rider to let Stannis in on the conspiring? Is this purely a plot mechanism to allow for a big GNC reveal, or a sign that Stannis will be cut out of the loop?

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I have to say it. The only person who can lead any sort of vengeance campaign is Jon stark or snow. He's the only stark with the birth, experience, and understanding while also being the only one able to wield a sword. If there is a plan for northern independence Jon has to be at the center of it. No ordinary lord of last hearth or depwoode motte or even riverrun can lead armies against w/e foe for the revenge and honor of these kingdoms. Only a stark. The stark. Jon stark.

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