Love vs. Honor…which one will ultimately win?

[jenerationx]

Honour is not easy, nor is it expedient. Nor is it mutually exclusive with love.

This is true, but the OP was deliberately starting a discourse on this great quote by Maester Aemon: “Love is the bane of honor, the death of duty.” In Aemon's wise old opinion, they apparently are mutually exclusive. We don't necessarily have to agree with him, but I think that's where the discussion points come in, wherein characters have chosen one course over another, and where has it gotten them?

Jon Snow: You could say he picked honor over love by leaving Ygritte and returning to the NW, but I think his love for Ygritte is FAR outweighed by his love for his family and his NW friends, so I don’t think this is really an issue.

Agree, but I'm not really sure that his love for her was bigger than his love for his friends and family, so this may be love vs. love, not love vs. honor.

I'm a wee bit confused why you keep saying that Jon abandoning Ygritte was for love of his friends and family. It's pretty clear from the text that what was primarily at war here was love vs his vows (thus honor). I'm not saying that the latter doesn't also happen to include friends/family, but I don't think that was the primary tension at stake. Jon's story was parallel to Robb's -- they both "loved" a girl and had to choose between honoring vows they'd made or sticking with the girl they loved -- one chose the girl, the other chose his vows. So actually I do think it's a very reasonable example of a character choosing honor over love.

Robb Stark: Sacrificed his honor for the woman he loved most, Jeyne Westerling, by breaking his betrothal and marrying her instead.

I think "woman he loved most" is carrying it a little bit far. He was, what, 15? And she'd crawled into his bed? I don't think we'd ever heard her even mentioned before that point. I highly doubt it was "love." In Robb's case, it was teenage boy hormones. OR if you want to put a more positive spin on it but not get into that whole argument, we can still boil it down to this: he "dishonored" Jeyne, and the only honorable thing to do was marry her. So in Robb's case it was actually honor vs honor. Dishonor Jeyne but honor his vows to the Freys, or vice versa. What showed his youth/immaturity was getting himself in a position where one of the choices he had to make was going to be dishonorable no matter what.

Jaime Lannister: Sacrificed his honor (in part) for love of his father by killing Aerys.

This example is also interesting because some would say -- myself included -- that honor had a role in that killing. His actions in finally killing a king who was clearly insane -- whereas other KG and council members, etc, had all looked the other way, despite many innocents perishing, Aerys raping his queen, etc -- was honorable. But like Robb, there was another side to that coin, wherein he dishonored himself by breaking his KG vows. So to me, again, this was more honor vs honor than Jaime doing what he did out of love for Tywin.

To illustrate a more black and white version of this -- Ser Meryn Trant honors his vows as KG by beating Sansa when he is ordered to by Joffrey. Yet he completely dishonors his vows as a knight when he lays a finger on her. I know very few people who would call him a fine knight. And had he turned around and stabbed Joffrey in the face instead, I also kind of doubt that people would have been outraged (in fact, he'd probably be hailed a hero). Yet Jaime essentially doing the same isn't so clear cut for people. I wonder why. Is it because we never really got to see Aerys on a daily basis during his reign of terror, the way we get to see Joffrey being a punkass?

A couple more love vs honor examples:

Rhaegar kidnapping Lyanna -- Love over honor.

Ned keeping the truth from Robert about Cersei's deeds -- Love over honor. (For a guy who is best known for his sense of honor, Ned sure has a lot of exceptions!)

Jorah selling a couple of poachers to keep his second wife in the lifestyle to which she was accustomed -- Love over honor.

Barbrey Dustin (or at the time, Ryswell) giving her maidenhead to Brandon Stark -- Love over honor. (Same could be said of Ashara and whoever her lover was, if it was a consensual union.)

Barristan Selmy honoring his KG vows instead of pursuing Ashara Dayne -- Honor over love. (Though this one is rather shaky, since he now considers that his undeclared love for her is one of his failures. So interestingly, one of the few examples of honor winning out over love, and the person later regrets the choice.)

[nara]

I'm a wee bit confused why you keep saying that Jon abandoning Ygritte was for love of his friends and family. It's pretty clear from the text that what was primarily at war here was love vs his vows (thus honor). I'm not saying that the latter doesn't also happen to include friends/family, but I don't think that was the primary tension at stake. Jon's story was parallel to Robb's -- they both "loved" a girl and had to choose between honoring vows they'd made or sticking with the girl they loved -- one chose the girl, the other chose his vows. So actually I do think it's a very reasonable example of a character choosing honor over love.

I think "woman he loved most" is carrying it a little bit far. He was, what, 15? And she'd crawled into his bed? I don't think we'd ever heard her even mentioned before that point. I highly doubt it was "love." In Robb's case, it was teenage boy hormones. OR if you want to put a more positive spin on it but not get into that whole argument, we can still boil it down to this: he "dishonored" Jeyne, and the only honorable thing to do was marry her. So in Robb's case it was actually honor vs honor. Dishonor Jeyne but honor his vows to the Freys, or vice versa. What showed his youth/immaturity was getting himself in a position where one of the choices he had to make was going to be dishonorable no matter what.

This example is also interesting because some would say -- myself included -- that honor had a role in that killing. His actions in finally killing a king who was clearly insane -- whereas other KG and council members, etc, had all looked the other way, despite many innocents perishing, Aerys raping his queen, etc -- was honorable. But like Robb, there was another side to that coin, wherein he dishonored himself by breaking his KG vows. So to me, again, this was more honor vs honor than Jaime doing what he did out of love for Tywin.

To illustrate a more black and white version of this -- Ser Meryn Trant honors his vows as KG by beating Sansa when he is ordered to by Joffrey. Yet he completely dishonors his vows as a knight when he lays a finger on her. I know very few people who would call him a fine knight. And had he turned around and stabbed Joffrey in the face instead, I also kind of doubt that people would have been outraged (in fact, he'd probably be hailed a hero). Yet Jaime essentially doing the same isn't so clear cut for people. I wonder why. Is it because we never really got to see Aerys on a daily basis during his reign of terror, the way we get to see Joffrey being a punkass?

Let me try to clarify what I mean in the Jon/Ygritte example. Since the job of the NW is to protect the realm from Others, Wildlings, etc. on the north side of the wall, love for his family (who are part of the people Westeros is protecting) and honor for NW vows happen to require the same thing--betray Ygritte and stop the wildlings. It could be argued that the primary reason Jon does so is for honor, but my interpretation is that the primary reason is love for his family and other people he is protecting from wildlings. I could be wrong, but as you might guess from this thread, I am pro-love! Re: your point on Robb, I'm not sure that if Robb had lived that Jeyne would have been his great love, but I think he thought so at the time (being 16 years old and all). Your point that it might have been honor vs. honor is a valid one. One of my great frustrations with the series is that we don't really get to know Robb. Thanks for your comment on Joffrey and Meryn Trant--I think it's really a great observation. It would have been interesting to see how Ned reacted to Joffrey-Meryn vs. how he reacted to Aerys-Jaime. Would he have had different opinion since it was his own daughter who was involved? Would he have understood the double-standard? Would he have gained a better understanding of Jaime? Alas, we'll never know.

[Newstar]

You're right, The Smiths would be very popular in Westeros ("How Soon Is Now," would be another one to add to your list). I can also see The Cure and Joy Division going over big time too.

The Smiths could basically make up all of Tyrion's ADWD playlist:

I am the son and heir

of nothing in particular

You shut your mouth

how can you say

I go about things the wrong way

I am human and I need to be loved

just like everybody else does

I was happy in the haze of a drunken hour

but heaven knows I'm miserable now

I was looking for a job, and then I found a job

and heaven knows I'm miserable now

In my life why do I give valuable time

to people who don't care if I live or die

Girlfriend in a coma, I know I know - it's serious

There were times when I could Have 'strangled' her

(but, you know, I would hate anything to happen to her)

WOULD YOU PLEASE LET ME SEE HER!

Do you really think she'll pull through?

Let me whisper my last goodbyes

I know - IT'S SERIOUS

Sweetness, sweetness I was only joking when I said I'd like to

Smash every tooth in your head

Sweetness, sweetness I was only joking when I said by rights you should be

Bludgeoned in your bed

And now I know how Joan of Arc felt

Now I know how Joan of Arc felt

As the flames rose to her Roman nose

And her Walkman started to melt

Bigmouth, bigmouth bigmouth strikes again

And I've got no right to take my place

With the human race

Last night I dreamt that somebody loved me

No hope - but no harm

Just another false alarm

Last night I felt real arms around me

No hope - no harm

Just another false alarm

So, tell me how long before the last one?

And tell me how long before the right one?

This story is old - I KNOW but it goes on

Good times for a change

see, the luck I've had

can make a good man

turn bad

So please please please

let me, let me, let me

let me get what I want

this time

The boy with the thorn in his side

Behind the hatred there lies

A murderous desire for love

when you laugh about people who feel so very lonely

their only desire is to die

well I'm afraid

it doesn't make me smile

I wish I could laugh

but that joke isn't funny anymore

it's too close to home and it's too near the bone

it's too close to home and it's too near the bone

more than you'll ever know

It was dark as I drove the point home

and on cold leather seats

well, it suddenly struck me

I just might die with a smile on my face after all

I've seen this happen in other people's lives

and now it's happening in mine

Hahaha, so Tyrion.

Jorah selling a couple of poachers to keep his second wife in the lifestyle to which she was accustomed -- Love over honor.

Agreed. Great example.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I've been rereading the Tales of Dunk and Egg recently, and I feel like Dunk will eventually reach this battle. We know he becomes the LC of Aegon's Kingsguard, and at a certain point in the Mystery Knight he reflects on whether or not he would take the vows of a KG knight and seems to lean towards no because he wants to marry, he wants love. In both the Sworn Sword and in the Hedge Knight he had possible romantic interests(Tanselle Too-Tall and Lady Webber). I think it's very possible this conflict between his honor as a KG and his love for...someone will come up eventually in these stories. Based what we know it seems he will pick honor, but perhaps a paramour...?

There is a lot of speculation about his having decendants in ASOIAF. Maybe he was a widower at the time he joined the KG.