The Cat-Jon-Ned Debacle (long)

[IRON BANK]

Why should that mean she should let go of her resentment? She only accepted Ned's decision is because she doesn't have the power to challenge him and she doesn't want to anger him and risk her and her children's well-being.

Thats what I'M trying to say if you accept Neds decision the do not be impartial. Resenting it when Ned is absent or not around. Cats resentment creates the animosity, anger , and tension between the two. Think of How different the dynamics would have been if Jon felt more at home in winter fell. This means more than likely he does not go to the wall. It brings about almost a whole different story line.

[Minsc]

Thats what I'M trying to say if you accept Neds decision the do not be impartial. Resenting it when Ned is absent or not around. Cats resentment creates the animosity, anger , and tension between the two. Think of How different the dynamics would have been if Jon felt more at home in winter fell. This means more than likely he does not go to the wall. It brings about almost a whole different story line.

Why does being forced into accepting something you don't like mean you should automatically let go of any resentment? That seems to be the basic opposite of human nature.

[IRON BANK]

Why does being forced into accepting something you don't like mean you should automatically let go of any resentment? That seems to be the basic opposite of human nature.

Yes to move in a direction less traveled is difficult. Most peoples 1st reaction would be to feel like Cat. However letting go of the resentment would have aided all around in trust and communication. Maybe leading to different results.

[Minsc]

Yes to move in a direction less traveled is difficult. Most peoples 1st reaction would be to feel like Cat. However letting go of the resentment would have aided all around in trust and communication. Maybe leading to different results.

She would always be giving off a message to the rest of the realm that she and House Tully can be walked all over.

[IRON BANK]

She would always be giving off a message to the rest of the realm that she and House Tully can be walked all over.

Your right Catelyns pride always seemed to get in her way and cloud her judgment. To hung up on Titles and position.

[Minsc]

Your right Catelyns pride always seemed to get in her way and cloud her judgment. To hung up on Titles and position.

When does she focus to much on titles and positions without it having to do with either strategic sense or simply just her self-respect?

[SeanF]

Thats what I'M trying to say if you accept Neds decision the do not be impartial. Resenting it when Ned is absent or not around. Cats resentment creates the animosity, anger , and tension between the two. Think of How different the dynamics would have been if Jon felt more at home in winter fell. This means more than likely he does not go to the wall. It brings about almost a whole different story line.

Who wouldn't feel resentment in Catelyn's position?

[IRON BANK]

When does she focus to much on titles and positions without it having to do with either strategic sense or simply just her self-respect?

When in the eerie questioning her sisters relation ship with Ser vardys

while on the road and calling attention to her bannermen in the areest of Tyrion.

Her social status when entering the Brothel In KL and her interactions with petyr.

When she negotiated with Renly and failed to acknowledge or treat with Stannis if he proved the victor.

Catelyn has a tendency to focus on such things throughout the text, this is especially brought out with the signing of Robs will.

[IRON BANK]

Who wouldn't feel resentment in Catelyn's position?

Correct: But who wouldn't let go of said resentment over time, for the good of everyone including yourself.

[Minsc]

When in the eerie questioning her sisters relation ship with Ser vardys

I don't particularly recall this can you elaborate?

while on the road and calling attention to her bannermen in the areest of Tyrion.

Well her and Ser Rodrick cannot arrest Tyrion by themselves thus she uses her status to help in the arrest. That is no different then any noble character commanding some of their troops.

Her social status when entering the Brothel In KL and her interactions with petyr.

She thinks of him as like a brother that doesn't seem like she let her greater status come between them.

When she negotiated with Renly and failed to acknowledge or treat with Stannis if he proved the victor.

She valiantly tried to convince Stannis and Renly to come together, but they refused thus she went with the person that if wasn't because of magic would have been the winner and more likely willing to work with her son more equally. And after he was dead she was fleeing for her life.

Also how does that have anything to do with her being hung up on titles and status? Seeing how Stannis was of equal status to her and her family.

[IRON BANK]

I don't particularly recall this can you elaborate?

Well her and Ser Rodrick cannot arrest Tyrion by themselves thus she uses her status to help in the arrest. That is no different then any noble character commanding some of their troops.

She thinks of him as like a brother that doesn't seem like she let her greater status come between them.

She valiantly tried to convince Stannis and Renly to come together, but they refused thus she went with the person that if wasn't because of magic would have been the winner and more likely willing to work with her son more equally. And after he was dead she was fleeing for her life.

Also how does that have anything to do with her being hung up on titles and status? Seeing how Stannis was of equal status to her and her family.

What it shows is Cat deals with people in a manner of shallowness, haughtiness, and uptightness. When she feels they are beneath her. Jon being a bastard received the full brunt of this. As stated eralier Cat should have let go of her resentment and Ned should not have kept secrets from his wife. Unless you feel the way Cat treated Jon was ok? What do you think?

[Minsc]

What it shows is Cat deals with people in a manner of shallowness, haughtiness, and uptightness. When she feels they are beneath her.

Petyr, Ser Rodrick, Myra, and Brienne were all beneath her and she held no negative will against them. Thus, no you haven't shown that at all. Simply, she dislikes Jon not only because he is bastard but instead what he represents and what he threatens against her and her children.

[IRON BANK]

Petyr, Ser Rodrick, Myra, and Brienne were all beneath her and she held no negative will against them. Thus, no you haven't shown that at all. Simply, she dislikes Jon not only because he is bastard but instead what he represents and what he threatens against her and her children.

Have you read, how Catelyn views Brienne when she first sees her. if you have you realize it is not in the best of light. Also Myra Stone was not viewed favorbly by her she felt that her lover would not be returned by the other boy because of her status and I believe she felt the girl was foolish. Even though Mya seemed quite capable.

We all realize that Jon is not a threat to the Starks, through the text and that is my point. If Catelyn would have taken her time to develope a relationship with Jon insted of harping on the negative. Things would have turned out diffrently for the both of them. for better or worse.

[Minsc]

Have you read, how Catelyn views Brienne when she first sees her. if you have you realize it is not in the best of light. Also Myra Stone was not viewed favorbly by her she felt that her lover would not be returned by the other boy because of her status and I believe she felt the girl was foolish. Even though Mya seemed quite capable.

You mean how she feels sympathy for both women and is rightly correct in that judgement? In how Brienne faces awful shit just because of her looks and Myra's lover does dump her because she is only a bastard?

[a free shadow]

If you feel that bumps did such an erroneous job with this one, why don't you actually address it point by point (which you did not attempt to in her thread) instead of smugly telling her she failed with "zomg, I'm getting away with being condescending but it's ok because I'm using emotes!

Catnapping

there's the thread, linked above.

I just recently had a couple of pages of discussion on major point(s) I disagree about the Catnapping with butterbumps. It starts here. I did question her definition (which came across as her certainity at first for me) that Tyrion's arrest was peacable and did not break the kings peace. In the end we agreed that there was no uniformly of accepted relevant laws or not enough information to decide on that for us, even if our subsequent conclusions stayed different.

I do not feel it necessery to go on stating the same opinions every day in every thread so that not a man would miss it. I try to discuss mostly what might be new to me. I think the threads about Catelyn tend to go around in many unproductive circles and I do not feel very strongly about her to be very outspoken. I only entered the one linked above, because butterbumps is quite known for her in-depth analysis and I absolutely wanted to know if I missed some important detail on the laws that could change my view on the Catelyn/Tyrion situation. I concluded that I didn't, but it still was an interesting small topic.

So, yes, I was refering back to that. But it was definitely light-hearted and a little mockery on the tradition how Cat's threads quickly turn sour, because some people do not even bother to read what they decide to argue with. It was intended to be cheery and I think it is hard to think otherwise. And as I said, people (like yourself this time) tend to finght anyone and anything in similar threads, so emoticons should make it harder for them to misintepretate things.

As you might have noted, I read the OP and adressed a few points I disagree with. After finishing it, I had a little true concern that it was written in that form (starting with the statement that Catelyn was already exonerrated for Catnapping and concluding that her actions with Jon were forgivable). As butterbumps is often taken as speaking gospel in the threads (:P) I had a problem with it, because it seemed intended as some general and final agreement, where opinions turned to facts.

I think it is you who was hostile in this case.

[danm_999]

I'll give you the Night's Watch oath, but at least Robb had attempted to take steps to rectify that. As for Jon's bastard status, there's that whole issue of, uh, Robb, you know, legitimizing him. Ask the northern lords whom they'd prefer: A legitimized Jon, Ned's actual son with whom they have already had interactions and dealings and who shares their culture and religion, or some Vale cousin whom they've never met, and has probably never set foot in the North, much less Winterfell. If any of them picked the Vale cousin, I'd eat my shoe.

Fact? Hardly. If anything it's the exact opposite.

Honestly, I always saw the story of Bael the Bard as a massive foreshadowing to this and the circumstances surrounding Rhaegar and Lyanna's meeting and Jon's conception. Specifically;

• Somebody comes to an event in a disguise to 'prove' something, and right a wrong; Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree over Howland Reed's treatment, Bael the Bard as Sygerrik of Skagos after the King in the North, Brandon the Daughterless, calls him a coward.
  
• The event is won and the reward is given. Bael the Bard is told to name his price, he asks for the most beautiful blue winter rose at Winterfell. Rhaegar wins the tournament at Harrenhall and names Lyanna the Queen of Love and Beauty, and gives her a crown of blue winter roses.
  
• The woman dissapears. Brandon's maiden daughter at Winterfell, Lyanna at where ever the hell she was. The common wisdom was that the women were kidnapped, but there were suggestions both loved the men they ran away with.
  
• The Lord Stark finds the child amongst the ghosts. For Brandon the Daughterless, Ygritte said she was hiding amongst the dead in Winterfell's crypt. For Ned Stark, his memories talk about the wraiths at the Tower of Joy.
  
• The bastard child becomes the Lord of Winterfell, and the next King in the North after Brandon the Daughterless, raising the idea that maybe House Stark has already run through a legitimised bastard before.
  

Or maybe not. But sometimes when I see lots of thematic links and the stressing of the blue winter roses, I have to wonder.

[The Prince of Newcastle]

If not at first, I still think Ned should have told her the truth eventually.

That would spoil the reveal later on though.

[SeanF]

What it shows is Cat deals with people in a manner of shallowness, haughtiness, and uptightness. When she feels they are beneath her. Jon being a bastard received the full brunt of this. As stated eralier Cat should have let go of her resentment and Ned should not have kept secrets from his wife. Unless you feel the way Cat treated Jon was ok? What do you think?

Catelyn has a good deal more empathy towards the lower classes than almost anyone else of her background. Compare her behaviour to that of Tyrion, Cersei, the Blackfish, Roose Bolton, or the various lords and ladies who make war without concern for the Smallfolk.

[Tywin Manderly]

She would always be giving off a message to the rest of the realm that she and House Tully can be walked all over.

In this case it is a pity that Jaime Laniister is not Catelyn's brother. He would have made short work of Ned, avenging the slight against her.

[Dicer]

I am not sure why this topic of Jon and Catelyn is brought up again and again and rehashed over the same points. There are always going to be two sides to this argument between those who think that Catelyn did mistreat Jon and she was wrong to do so and those who see nothing wrong in her actions and that it was Jon who expected too much, he had it better than most bastards in Westeros so he should have shut up and stopped being a whiny, emo bastard.

This issue is never going to be resolved, it is very subjective and the personal experiences and biases of individual readers are going to factor into how people react to both Jon and Catelyn when reading the books.

I feel very strongly that a child should never be blamed for an adult's actions. All children are innocent. In my opinion, Catelyn did mistreat Jon. Ignoring him, never calling him by his name, showering his siblings with love while making it clear she wanted him gone from there is not going to be a pleasant experience for a young boy growing up.

It's clear that the only reason that Jon was allowed to stay at Winterfell and interact with his siblings was because Eddard wanted it so. If it were upto Catelyn, Jon would have been send away from his family and not allowed to know his siblings for no fault of his own.

It does not matter if that was the convention of that time. Forced marriages, arranged marriages ( Lysa-Jon, Arya and Frey), people who are different (Tyrion) treated differently, the unequal power dynamics between the different genders and classes are all conventions of those times as well. But I can call it out as wrong because I identify with certain values. No matter if Catelyn was forced to put up with Jon and had no choice in the matter. To hurt a child (And she emotionally hurt Jon, there can be no doubt of that) is fundamentally wrong.

Even worse is how much she loved Ned, the man who committed the wrong deed in the first place. It was Ned who was responsible for what happened, Ned who brought Jon to Winterfell to live with them, Ned who got angry at her when she asked about Jon's mother, Ned who did not trust her enough to tell her the truth, Ned who put his children's inheritence at risk by bringing a bastard into the world. But she never treats him with resentment or anger. It's the powerless, namely Jon, that has to suffer the brunt of her anger and displeasure at Ned. Catelyn's treatment of Jon shows an unjust resentment directed at the wrong person and something I don't find forgiveable.

She's an interesting character, someone who is clever, passionate, loyal and dutiful. I consider her one of the best female characters in the books and her death was one of the saddest moments of the series. But she has her flaws and in my opinion Jon is one of those flaws. While I find her other actions understandable (arresting Tyrion, releasing Jaime), her treatment of Jon resonated with me, and it will always be something that I dislike about her.