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R+L=J v 59


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Why make Jon king over Dany when she has dragons?

Because he is the rightful Targ King. If they make Dany Queen instead of Jon, then they'd be usurping him, and Dany wouldn't like that, as she's always talked and thought about how Robert was bad being a usurper.

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I don't think anyone would be silly enough to marry Margaery Tyrell after she married all available male Lannister bastards.

I think lust would cloud their ability to see it as a silly decision. The little head knows no silliness... only pleasure. Except in Theons case lol.

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Because he is the rightful Targ King. If they make Dany Queen instead of Jon, then they'd be usurping him, and Dany wouldn't like that, as she's always talked and thought about how Robert was bad being a usurper.

No matter what Dany sees herself on the throne. If it meant marrying Jon then maybe that would be the choice but in no way would she be bowing to Jon and stepping aside. This neverending journey she is on is to sit atop the IT.

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No matter what Dany sees herself on the throne. If it meant marrying Jon then maybe that would be the choice but in no way would she be bowing to Jon and stepping aside. This neverending journey she is on is to sit atop the IT.

If she did that, then she'd be no better than Robert. By right the Targ Throne belongs to Jon, and if Dany doesn't like that then she'll become a usurper.

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Because he is the rightful Targ King. If they make Dany Queen instead of Jon, then they'd be usurping him, and Dany wouldn't like that, as she's always talked and thought about how Robert was bad being a usurper.

The lords paramount would want proof after Stannis' claim of incest between Cersei and Jaime, and Jon himself wouldn't believe it. Especially not after his reunion with Arya where she tells him what Lord Edric Dayne, his milk brother, said about his mother

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The lords paramount would want proof after Stannis' claim of incest between Cersei and Jaime, and Jon himself wouldn't believe it. Especially not after his reunion with Arya where she tells him what Lord Edric Dayne, his milk brother, said about his mother

Jon will learn from Bran or Bloodraven that he's a Targ, and Howland will come forth and tell people of his true parentage.

Also there's probably something in Lyanna's tomb to prove it, as Jon has dreams of going to the crypts and saying he's not one of them, and he's afraid to go there.

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Because he is the rightful Targ King. If they make Dany Queen instead of Jon, then they'd be usurping him, and Dany wouldn't like that, as she's always talked and thought about how Robert was bad being a usurper.

Well he might be the rightful Targ King. Whatever theories and evidence fans have, think they have or don't have doesn't really matter at this point. Until Martin puts pen to paper so to speak and makes it fact it is all just speculation. For all intent and purpose Dany still has the Targ title. Neither may even live long enough to sit on the Throne of thornes.

We don't know when and if Jon will get the information and if he gets it what he will do with it. Did Martin ever say what Jon would learn or when or that we would learn who his parents are? Despite all the photo shopped images I have a hard time seeing Jon as anything but a member of the watch. I don't see him in KL sitting on a throne. Just like I Have a hard time seeing Dany or Jon Surviving the series. I have always thought of both of them being born to fight the Others, that this is their purpose in the series, the Throne seems secondary to me, it's not really that imprortant. Was Rhaegar worried about which Targaryen would sit the throne in the future or who would stop the apocalypse?

I usually end up thinking it will be Bran or Sansa, or someone else. No real evidence or anything, that's just what the story feels like to me. Dany and Jon born of war to fight a war and been fighting since early on in the series.

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The Stark colors are gray and white. A gray direwolf on a white field. We know that bastards reverse their House colors so if Jon left the NW and chose to do that his sigil would be a white direwolf on agray field. He's been set up as the bastard son of Eddard Stark and possibly the future King in the North. He is tormented by nightmares about his family and Winterfell's crypts where he has no place as a bastard, he wants to have a place at Winterfell in the North, House Targaryen and their dragons mean nothing to him, his mission is to stop the Others and his desire is to have Winterfell. Why would GRRM put in all this detail only to make him Rhaegar's son and possibly sit the Iron Throne, which he would never want?

Maybe because the author has planted tons of clues, hints, foreshadowings and symbols (59 versions are there for a reason). Because it resounds with powerful archetypal echoes. Because throne or not, it will be Jon's blood legacy to help shaping his destiny. Because accepting the burden and burn of such a legacy is coherent with the structure of his tragic arc. Because at the end of the day it's GRRM's story.

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No matter what Dany sees herself on the throne. If it meant marrying Jon then maybe that would be the choice but in no way would she be bowing to Jon and stepping aside. This neverending journey she is on is to sit atop the IT.

Is it? Or is that her brothers Journey and a path other people put her on? Do Dany's dreams tell us she dreams of being the Queen? She dreams of the house with the Red door, she dreams of the Others, the Wall, Dragons, she has nightmares about her brother and her lost child. She was not told to go to KL, she was told to go to Westeros and go North. Most of Dany's desires about the throne and Westeros were instilled in her by her brother, and she often acts like him when talking about the Throne repeating what he has said to her. But her dreams indicate something else. She is told by Mormont, Selmy, everyone around her it's yours, it's yours, you are the Queen. The question is when will she realize she has been living for Others and discover what she wants in life, what her path is. Not what the Targ path or her brothers blind desires were, not a false belief instilled her by those around her. I don't think Dany or Jon have realized their destiny yet, both have stepped on the path but neither is sure where they are headed. Dany was meant to wake the Dragons, Jons life led him to the Wall. Both characters have been stuck in one place for awhile now, Dany almost afraid to move forward, and Jon struggling for direction should I stay or should I go?

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Until a fourteen, or fifteen year old Arya has to come back home, and then trouble all over again for the men of Westeros........

She's twelve at the end of aDwD, and the Faceless Men had already offered to send her to one of the greatest Courtesans in Braavos if she so desired.

So, I think the Tyrells will have a lot more to worry about than just the Martells, or the Lannisters as they keep passing Marg around to the next King.

:lol: Now I have a mental image of a game of pass the present, where Marg is the present and each successive regime change sends her off in a new direction 'round the circle.

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Why make Jon king over Dany when she has dragons?

We don't know that Jon and his skin-changing team won't take the dragons away from Daenerys. We don't know that the maesters won't destroy the dragons. We don't know that all three dragons have to die to win the war for the dawn II.
Also, what are the chances that Howland talks to Jon before Arya? Arya will tell him his mom is Wylla.

Does Arya believe that? I think not. But, you might want to consider Jon's dream of entering the crypts at Winterfell. There is something there that he needs to retrieve, but he doesn't belong, because he knows that he is not a Stark.
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Jon will learn from Bran or Bloodraven that he's a Targ, and Howland will come forth and tell people of his true parentage.

Also there's probably something in Lyanna's tomb to prove it, as Jon has dreams of going to the crypts and saying he's not one of them, and he's afraid to go there.

Bloodraven knows Jon was named Robb's heir. Mormont's raven calls him "king" now at the end of ADWD because BR was flying around in the raven's skin and likely learned from someone in the GNC that Jon was the new KitN. Howland has had plenty of time to tell people that there was a Targ heir in Westeros, why hasn't he? What could there be in Lyanna's tomb that would prove R+L=J? I think her bones and some blue roses are all that are in there. Also, unless I'm mistaken, Jon's dreams of the crypts are more cryptic than Rickon's or Bran's, but they are centered around the deaths of Robb and Ned. The tomb he doesn't recognize and the bloody direwolf are similar to Theon's dream about Robb and Grey Wind at the feast of dead people in ACOK. Jon at the time of this dream didn't know that Robb had died.

We don't know that Jon and his skin-changing team won't take the dragons away from Daenerys. We don't know that the maesters won't destroy the dragons. We don't know that all three dragons have to die to win the war for the dawn II. Does Arya believe that? I think not. But, you might want to consider Jon's dream of entering the crypts at Winterfell. There is something there that he needs to retrieve, but he doesn't belong, because he knows that he is not a Stark.

Arya's thoughts were "Jon has a mother, her name is Wylla" or something along those lines, what makes you think she didn't believe Ned? Warging a human is impossible unless they're mentally disabled, look at Varamyr. I don't think warging a dragon is possible even for a warg as strong as Jon, who is untrained and resists the gift.

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Bloodraven knows Jon was named Robb's heir. Mormont's raven calls him "king" now at the end of ADWD because BR was flying around in the raven's skin and likely learned from someone in the GNC that Jon was the new KitN.

Mormont's raven calls him "king" at the beginning of Clash, though, before Robb named Jon his heir.

Howland has had plenty of time to tell people that there was a Targ heir in Westeros, why hasn't he?

What good would it serve? Jon doesn't have an independent power base to make use of it, and he's sworn to the Night's Watch besides. Telling the world Jon's true origins at this point in the story would only make him a target of the other kings.

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Bloodraven knows Jon was named Robb's heir. Mormont's raven calls him "king" now at the end of ADWD because BR was flying around in the raven's skin and likely learned from someone in the GNC that Jon was the new KitN. Howland has had plenty of time to tell people that there was a Targ heir in Westeros, why hasn't he? What could there be in Lyanna's tomb that would prove R+L=J? I think her bones and some blue roses are all that are in there. Also, unless I'm mistaken, Jon's dreams of the crypts are more cryptic than Rickon's or Bran's, but they are centered around the deaths of Robb and Ned. The tomb he doesn't recognize and the bloody direwolf are similar to Theon's dream about Robb and Grey Wind at the feast of dead people in ACOK. Jon at the time of this dream didn't know that Robb had died.

Arya's thoughts were "Jon has a mother, her name is Wylla" or something along those lines, what makes you think she didn't believe Ned? Warging a human is impossible unless they're mentally disabled, look at Varamyr. I don't think warging a dragon is possible even for a warg as strong as Jon, who is untrained and resists the gift.

Let it begin.

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Mormont's raven calls him "king" at the beginning of Clash, though, before Robb named Jon his heir.

What good would it serve? Jon doesn't have an independent power base to make use of it, and he's sworn to the Night's Watch besides. Telling the world Jon's true origins at this point in the story would only make him a target of the other kings.

Mormont's raven says "king" because the Old Bear and Jon had been talking about how the realm had three kings. Jon would still be a target of the other kings if Howland revealed it now, and the Night's Watch takes no part, revealing Jon's parentage wouldn't have been a big deal. Maester Aemon was still alive at the beginning of AGOT and not being hunted, Dany and Visrys were watched but no one actually tried to have them killed until Dany got pregnant

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Why would GRRM put in all this detail only to make him Rhaegar's son and possibly sit the Iron Throne, which he would never want?

Who says R+L=J absolutely has to mean Jon will take the Iron Throne instead of being KITN? You seem to be forgetting the part where he would also be Lyanna Stark's son, which believe it or not, would still mean a great deal in the North....Smh typical detractor that treats R+L=J as if the R is the only thing that matters.......

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Mormont's raven says "king" because the Old Bear and Jon had been talking about how the realm had three kings.

And all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow. Pretty blatant clue, methinks.

Jon would still be a target of the other kings if Howland revealed it now

Sure, but I never said Howland would reveal it now. No telling how things might change in future books, though.

and the Night's Watch takes no part, revealing Jon's parentage wouldn't have been a big deal. Maester Aemon was still alive at the beginning of AGOT and not being hunted

Aemon was mostly forgotten by the time of AGOT.

Dany and Visrys were watched but no one actually tried to have them killed until Dany got pregnant

Only due to the intervention of Jon Arryn. Without him, Robert would've tried to have them killed long ago.

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And all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow. Pretty blatant clue, methinks.

Sure, but I never said Howland would reveal it now. No telling how things might change in future books, though.

Aemon was mostly forgotten by the time of AGOT.

Only due to the intervention of Jon Arryn. Without him, Robert would've tried to have them killed long ago.

:agree: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

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