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R+L=J v 59


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There was a topic a while back about Henry VII's royal sigil, a white dog and a red dragon, could be a historical parallel between his sigil and Jon if he became King, or at least his parentage.

Wow ya it definitely could, thanks for the heads up!

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I'm unsure about Jon being KitN or taking the iron throne, as per the thread on Robb's will, but you've made a some great arguments for it.

That thread:- http://asoiaf.wester...ain-robbs-will/

Fair enough and thanks, also while I personally really don't want or think it's likely that Jon will take the Irone Throne, along with the fact that I think there might not even be an Iron Throne when this is all said and done, I still think it's possible he sits on the Iron Throne and that if he does, it won't be as black and white of an issue as some seem to think. Here's another post I copy and pasted from an argument I made on the Iron Throne issue in the same previous thread lol:

"I've said this once before, but a lot of ppl (not saying you specifically) seem to think if Jon were to take the Iron Throne it would have to be out of his own selfish desire to claim what is his as Rhaegar's heir and they won't really open their minds to another motive behind Jon taking the throne. I think if Jon takes the Iron Throne it will be out of self defense, a means of survival. Robert Baratheon might have taken the throne by conquest but the fact remains there would've never been a rebellion if Aerys didn't call for Robert's head so in a way Robert was obviously fighting for his own survival. I think once Jon is declared king of the North through Robb's will and R+L=J is revealed whoever is currently sitting on the Iron Throne(probably Faegon) will not like the North being it's own separate realm, and if it's Faegon then he definitely won't like the North's ruler claiming to be the son of Rhaegar and will label Jon and the entirety of the North as rebels and traitors and call for Jon's head. So Jon might end up having no choice but to take the Iron Throne by force to protect the North and as a means of his own survival, while being a legal Stark with Targ blood, as Robert did it as a Baratheon with Targ blood, only Jon as the son of Rhaegar would have even more Targ blood than Robert."

But again, I'd much prefer it if Jon stayed in the North and I wonder if GRRM even has the time for all of that, but still, it's definitely possible.

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So what you're saying is that you don't have actually proof? Ya, didn't think so, and I never said they will full out accept him immediately, but I think they will eventually accept him regardless. As for the part about the NW, well again this has been argued at put down many times before so I'm just gonna copy and past an argument I made against this in one of the previous threads lol:

"Let me try to lay this out for you as best as I can. If Jon and the men at the wall were to fight the Others with the manpower and overall resources they currently have then guess what? They would get absolutely obliterated by the Others, it wouldn't even be anything close to a fair fight. The men at the wall currently do not have anywhere near the man power or the resources needed to take on the Others. I get a strong feeling that some ppl on here(not saying you) seem to think that if GRRM does indeed make Jon AA then realistic factors of war like manpower and resources won't matter because Jon will be some sort of one man wrecking crew....Ya that's not really how GRRM novels work. The fact of the matter is Jon whether he likes it or not, will need a higher office of power than just LC of the NW if he hopes to rally the amount of men and recsources the men at the wall desperately need to take on the Others successfully. The fact that the previous LC wrote to all the seven kingdoms that the NW needed help and only one man with the fewest amount of men(Stannis) answered should be proof of that.

As LC can Jon make non-NW members rally to the wall to help fight off the Others? No, as LC can Jon make non NW-members send resources that the men of the wall desperately need? No, as LC will Jon have enough "percieved" power and influence that will cause other lords to listen to him, take his words seriously, and convince them to join his cause? Again no, commander Mormont's failed request for help is proof of that. This is my whole point I think some of you argue that Jon won't become a king because you simply just don't like the idea of him leaving the wall, yet you fail to realize that Jon becoming a king is the best way he can possibly help the men at the wall fight off the Others.

As a king, Jon will be able to command men to go to the wall and help fight of the Others the same way Stannis commanded and marched his men to the wall to help fight of the wildlings. As a king, Jon will have the power to access and give the men at the wall the much needed resources they will need against the Others. As a king, he's got the the other lords of Westeros's attention whether they like him or not. That is what is needed right now, not an LC of the NW but a king.

IMO, this is the reason for Robb's will, I don't think GRRM would have made Robb's will unless he intended for Jon to use it to take the North. He already had Jon reject Stannis's offer, so I don't really see the point in GRRM showing the readers Jon rejecting a second offer. I think Jon will realize that he has to claim a higher position of leadership than he has a LC in order to truly get the men at the wall prepared for the war with the Others and once he is shown Robb's will I think he will be encourage to accept it and ultimately IMO he will."

Jon doesn't need to be KitN for any of these things to happen. Stannis has given the NW men and dragonglass to fight the Others. If he wins the battle at Winterfell then he'll be able to give them even more men to man their castles. Stannis will have the support of White Harbor if Davos pulls through, which will mean he can send the NW food, weapons and armor. Jon actually has men to man the Wall (The wildlings, his brothers, and the men Stannis gave him) and gold from the wildlings and the Iron Bank to keep his men fed and clothed.

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There was a topic a while back about Henry VII's royal sigil, a white dog and a red dragon, could be a historical parallel between his sigil and Jon if he became King, or at least his parentage.

Great catch! :thumbsup: Remember that Henry VII also made much of his likeness to old King Arthur (as in the legend), believed that Arthur had been real and that he was descended from his line, and named his first born son after the old King. He also apparently believed or purported to believe, that he was the fulfillment of an old Arthurian prophecy that someone from the old Arthurian line would one day peacefully unite England and Wales. Judging by the parallels between Arthur and Jon Snow, the possible parallels between Jon and Henry VII are interesting - I wonder what other potential historical links can be gleaned from Henry VII and applied to Jon's situation?

I really have started fearing about the R+L=J...And my fear is linked directly to the TV series.

R+L=J might actually might turn out not being true afterall because there hasn't been any build up or foreshadowing in the TV show.

This is how I have come to this conclusion.

So D&D know how the story goes as the know how the story ends.Things which are usually left to our imagination in the books, are clearly shown to us and revealed in the TV show.(Either directly and indirectly or with changes to the plot)

Some examples:

1.Readers didn't guess Whitebeard was Selmy but in the TV show there was no Whitebeard.

2.Readers still see Margaery as an innocent teenager,but the TV show has made her true nature and motives clear from the start.

3.The Jeyne Westerling conspiracy theory was completely disproved when the TV producers placed Talisa in the RW.

4.While the book kinda leaves us a tiny hope of Robb surviving the RW...The TV show makes it clear that he is dead.

5.Ramsay was disguising as Reek in the book.TV show showed us Ramsay from the start.

etc.etc.etc.

Which makes me think, if R+L=J is true?Then why haven't we had some clues, some foreshadowing.

TV viewers who haven't read the book at all may not even see this coming, and if it comes will it even matter since many may not even remember who Rhaegar is or who don't know who characters like Arthur Dayne and Howland Reed are?I don't know.

That's why I am worried for this widely accepted theory which I of course subscribe to as well.

I agree with you to a certain degree. I feel that as TV viewers have not been made privy to all the clues, insights, and foreshadowing that we have, when or if the revelation actually happens - the significance could well be completely lost on many. Some have postulated that they should have done flashbacks, but the show's makers have said that they will be offering more and more clues to various things as the show progresses.

But the TV show hasn't been entirely without foreshadowing either.

Personally, I found the HOTU scene at the end of episode 2, with the falling snow in the throne room to be highly significant IMO. When I conversed with a few other viewers on the HBO threads, it was revealed that a blue rose was encrysted within the emblem of the seven kingdoms in the throne room. I took this as a hint that Jon may well end up sitting the IT at the end. I can see him acting as regent as KitN, but if he were ever to accept the position, I don't think he would hold onto it if he knew one of his brothers - or even one of his sisters for that matter - were alive.

I think he'd impose conditions (such as acting as regent until the appointed successor is of age to rule themselves) and ensure that the successor receives the requisite training to equip him/her as King, but I doubt very much that he'd deny his siblings their birth right.

I do think there is a chance that he will claim the IT at the end though. I mean, what would be the point of R+L=J if there is no connection to the IT? He does not need this illustrious birthright to become the KitN (as his brother has legitimised and named him as his heir in his Will), nor does he need it in order to validate his position as a potential AAR, if his task is simply to become a heroic warrior by defeating the Others, even if he were to die in the process.

Hence, although I freely admit that I could be wrong (and will hold my hands up at the end if I am) but I do think that he could eventually become King of the Seven Kingdoms.

There is a series of posts postulated by Fire Eater showing this foreshadowing here: http://asoiaf.wester...-of-dragons-20/

But unlike the other candidates, I think he'd be more likely to see it as a burden and a duty rather than a right or a privilege.

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Fair enough and thanks, also while I personally really don't want or think it's likely that Jon will take the Irone Throne, along with the fact that I think there might not even be an Iron Throne when this is all said and done, I still think it's possible he sits on the Iron Throne and that if he does, it won't be as black and white of an issue as some seem to think.

I've said this once before, but a lot of ppl (not saying you specifically) seem to think if Jon were to take the Irone Throne it would have to be out of his own selfish desire to claim what is his as Rhaegar's heir and they won't really open their minds to another motive behind Jon taking the throne. I think if Jon takes the Irone Throne it will be out of self defense, a means of survival. Robert Baratheon might have taken the throne by conquest but the fact remains there would've never been a rebellion if Aerys didn't call for Robert's head so in a way Robert was obviously fighting for his own survival. I think once Jon is declared king of the North through Robb's will and R+L=J is revealed whoever is currently sitting on the Irone Throne(probably Faegon) will not like the North being it's own separate realm, and if it's Faegon then he definitely won't like the North's ruler claiming to be the son of Rhaegar and will label Jon and the entirety of the North as rebels and traitors and call for Jon's head. So Jon might end up having no choice but to take the Iron Throne by force to protect the North and as a means of his own survival, while being a legal Stark with Targ blood, as Robert did it as a Baratheon with Targ blood, only Jon as the son of Rhaegar would have even more Targ blood than Robert.

But again, I'd much prefer it if Jon stayed in the North and I wonder if GRRM even has the time for all of that, but still, it's definitely possible.

Again, I agree with much of that. I certainly think if Jon is legitimised through Robb's will that it the first step for him. I don't think Jon would seek to be 'The Stark', but would be regent for a young Rickon.

That might be a step toward the revelation of Jon as a Targaryen heir through R+L=J , whether Jon would want to be that heir though. I'd guess he was schooled by Luwin and Ned similar to Robb, I'd guess that he won't have a fond view of either the south, the iron throne or the targaryens.

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Jon doesn't need to be KitN for any of these things to happen. Stannis has given the NW men and dragonglass to fight the Others. If he wins the battle at Winterfell then he'll be able to give them even more men to man their castles. Stannis will have the support of White Harbor if Davos pulls through, which will mean he can send the NW food, weapons and armor. Jon actually has men to man the Wall (The wildlings, his brothers, and the men Stannis gave him) and gold from the wildlings and the Iron Bank to keep his men fed and clothed.

You think what Stannis has given them is even close to enough? Haha wow, you should really re evaluate the way you look at full scale warfare. This isn't an army of wildlings we're talking about, this is a full size army of fucking zombies the likes of which Westeros has not seen since the first Battle for Dawn thousands of years ago. To put it simply, the current man power and resources they have right now even with Stannis's help and the dragonglass wouldn't stand a chance and the Others would kill them all....

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Again, I agree with much of that. I certainly think if Jon is legitimised through Robb's will that it the first step for him. I don't think Jon would seek to be 'The Stark', but would be regent for a young Rickon.

That might be a step toward the revelation of Jon as a Targaryen heir through R+L=J , whether Jon would want to be that heir though. I'd guess he was schooled by Luwin and Ned similar to Robb, I'd guess that he won't have a fond view of either the south, the iron throne or the targaryens.

Well it's not about him wanting to be the heir because again, I don't think he'd ever actually 'want' to be the heir in his head, it's about overwhelming circumstances forcing him to become king. Jon is probably one of the few men in Westeros that would actually never want to be king, but he'd do his duty as king regardless. Which is why it would be perfect for GRRM to make him king and why Jon being king would have a much stronger emotional impact on Jon's character specifically than it would on any other character in the story, that hypothetically might be chosen as king or queen in the story, whether it's the Iron Throne or the North...

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So what you're saying is that you don't have actually proof? Ya, didn't think so, and I never said they will full out accept him immediately, but I think they will eventually accept him regardless. As for the part about the NW, well again this has been argued at put down many times before so I'm just gonna copy and past an argument I made against this in one of the previous threads lol:

"Let me try to lay this out for you as best as I can. If Jon and the men at the wall were to fight the Others with the manpower and overall resources they currently have then guess what? They would get absolutely obliterated by the Others, it wouldn't even be anything close to a fair fight. The men at the wall currently do not have anywhere near the man power or the resources needed to take on the Others. I get a strong feeling that some ppl on here(not saying you) seem to think that if GRRM does indeed make Jon AA then realistic factors of war like manpower and resources won't matter because Jon will be some sort of one man wrecking crew....Ya that's not really how GRRM novels work. The fact of the matter is Jon whether he likes it or not, will need a higher office of power than just LC of the NW if he hopes to rally the amount of men and recsources the men at the wall desperately need to take on the Others successfully. The fact that the previous LC wrote to all the seven kingdoms that the NW needed help and only one man with the fewest amount of men(Stannis) answered should be proof of that.

As LC can Jon make non-NW members rally to the wall to help fight off the Others? No, as LC can Jon make non NW-members send resources that the men of the wall desperately need? No, as LC will Jon have enough "percieved" power and influence that will cause other lords to listen to him, take his words seriously, and convince them to join his cause? Again no, commander Mormont's failed request for help is proof of that. This is my whole point I think some of you argue that Jon won't become a king because you simply just don't like the idea of him leaving the wall, yet you fail to realize that Jon becoming a king is the best way he can possibly help the men at the wall fight off the Others.

As a king, Jon will be able to command men to go to the wall and help fight of the Others the same way Stannis commanded and marched his men to the wall to help fight of the wildlings. As a king, Jon will have the power to access and give the men at the wall the much needed resources they will need against the Others. As a king, he's got the the other lords of Westeros's attention whether they like him or not. That is what is needed right now, not an LC of the NW but a king.

IMO, this is the reason for Robb's will, I don't think GRRM would have made Robb's will unless he intended for Jon to use it to take the North. He already had Jon reject Stannis's offer, so I don't really see the point in GRRM showing the readers Jon rejecting a second offer. I think Jon will realize that he has to claim a higher position of leadership than he has a LC in order to truly get the men at the wall prepared for the war with the Others and once he is shown Robb's will I think he will be encourage to accept it and ultimately IMO he will."

Ghost is a white direwolf. Jon could have reversed the Stark colors on his shield or surcoat had he not joined the NW. A white direwolf on a gray field is a Stark bastard. GRRM could have had there be only five direwolves in the snow with gray fur. Instead, he gave Jon an albino pup who'd been driven away from the others. Ghost was of the pack but not one of the pack. Much as Jon, as Ned's bastard, is of his children but not really one of them

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Ghost is a white direwolf. Jon could have reversed the Stark colors on his shield or surcoat had he not joined the NW. A white direwolf on a gray field is a Stark bastard. GRRM could have had there be only five direwolves in the snow with gray fur. Instead, he gave Jon an albino pup who'd been driven away from the others. Ghost was of the pack but not one of the pack. Much as Jon, as Ned's bastard, is of his children but not really one of them

Or maybe Jon is different because even though he has as much Stark blood as the rest, unlike the other children he's not actually Ned's child and is instead the child of Lyanna Stark? Seriously that was a very weak argument you just tried to use. Besides it's not like Ghost was a bastard the pack was all born at the same time, so the pack has same parents on both sides. I agree that Ghost is used as a symbolism to show that Jon is different from his other siblings, but it's not because Jon is a bastard.

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They went to war with Aerys for beheading Brandon, Rickard, and calling for Ned's head. So once R+L=J is revealed along with the fact that Rhaegar never actually kidnapped and raped Lyanna and that they were actually in fact in love and had a son then I doubt the North will continue to hold beef with Rhaegar. Besides either way Aerys was the one they went to war against, Rhaegar was more of Robert's opponent that anyone, and I think once the North realizes that if Lyanna's own brother their former beloved Lord Eddard loved Jon enough to raise him as his own then they should probably do the same, and that they probably have the wrong idea of Rhaegar.

Also Robb was their king his will has more force and holds more power than anything. So again if Robb's will never explicitly states that Jon is his brother or the son of Eddard which Robb could have very well left out due to the fact he would have thought it was assumed by northerners, then that would mean regardless of R+L=J, Jon would still 100% be Robb's legal heir based on Robb's own words! Robb's dead now so the North can't exactly go ask him what he mean't by it, they can only go by his words. Robb was their king therefore his documented words are the only thing that would matter in legally validating Jon as KITN. It's not the North's place to say something their king commanded/documented was illegal, he's the F**n king whatever he validates is obviously legal and holds the most power. So again if he worded the will the way I've suggested, then no matter what the will is 100% legal! And is held as law above any other possible agenda the North might want to push. The simple fact of the matter is war unlike any other they've ever faced is coming to the North very soon, Jon would still be the beloved Lady of Winterfell Lyanna Stark's son and their former King's legal heir and a legal Stark based on the king's own words. The North was fiercely loyal to Robb and Jon is without a doubt the best and most qualified man for king of a North that again, is about to face war. I'm thinking Robb's will along with R+L=J will be revealed to the North on the heels of the Other's invasion, GRRM gave us the will for a reason he didn't just put it in there for show, so sorry but as much as you don't like it, IMO Jon is definitely going to be strongly considered as KITN over Rickon at some point. Again I'm thinking Jon will be KITK and Rickon will still be Lord of Winterfell.....

Ok define legal in Westeros cause i am still trying to figure it out. So far it falls in line with the law of total fucking corruption. "I have rights", stab, stab, stab. Hey look a will stab, stab, stab. Lannisters, I swear this time we will be honest, really, what? I'm a king I claim this realm, everyone else, burning leeches, shadow babies, Faceless men, poison, shredded documents, war, murder, and mayhem. We are your banner men, we are totally with you, hey how about a nice wedding. House Tyrell, hey have you met our daughter? Oh look a bunch of poor children stab, stab, stab. Hey thanks for this glass of wi...gaaak!! Hey a child wants me to open a wooden ball how cute, lets see what's iinside. I'm the king my will is law, rip, tear, shred. As the 997 lord commander I command you to stab, stab, stab. As the 998 Lord Commander I am going stab, stab, stab. Would anyone like some honeyed locust? Let's make this little girl a Queen, Darkstar "slice" I totally promise to bend the knee until such time as I choose not to. Robert they are totally your children, totally. Ned Stark, I am totally going to do the right thing, slice. Peaches, I love peaches. I'm a king no I'm the king, No I'm the king, I thought I was the king, war, war, war, war. The North Remembers, we remember southerns are crazy and to stay the fuck away from them.

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Well it's not about him wanting to be the heir because again, I don't think he'd ever actually 'want' to be the heir in his head, it's about overwhelming circumstances forcing him to become king. Jon is probably one of the few men in Westeros that would actually never want to be king, but he'd do his duty as king regardless. Which is why it would be perfect for GRRM to make him king and why Jon being king would have a much stronger emotional impact on Jon's character specifically than it would on any other character in the story, that hypothetically might be chosen as king or queen in the story, whether it's the Iron Throne or the North...

Duty then.. Certainly something he'd reluctantly do.

Stannis always seems to be about so much about duty. But I suppose that Jon just does what he has to.

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And all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow. Pretty blatant clue, methinks.

You might take another look at the passage from ACOK. The raven says "king" but it is Mormont whose eyes never leave Jon. The raven is "it" and Mormont is "he." The eyes are "his", not "its."

The raven never calls Jon king until after Robb issues his will.

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You might take another look at the passage from ACOK. The raven says "king" but it is Mormont whose eyes never leave Jon. The raven is "it" and Mormont is "he." The eyes are "his", not "its."

The raven never calls Jon king until after Robb issues his will.

Don't know that do we? I mean the timelines for each POV are different, people have been trying to figure out what is happening and when for years. Even Ran doesn't know.

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Don't know that do we? I mean the timelines for each POV are different, people have been trying to figure out what is happening and when for years. Even Ran doesn't know.

We do know that. The first time the raven calls Jon "king" is after Jon finds out that Robb is dead, so it is after Robb writes the will.

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Or maybe Jon is different because even though he has as much Stark blood as the rest, unlike the other children he's not actually Ned's child and is instead the child of Lyanna Stark? Seriously that was a very weak argument you just tried to use. Besides it's not like Ghost was a bastard the pack was all born at the same time, so the pack has same parents on both sides. I agree that Ghost is used as a symbolism to show that Jon is different from his other siblings, but it's not because Jon is a bastard.

Then why give Jon a direwolf if he's one of the heads of the dragon? Why would we learn that bastards reverse their House colors to make their own sigils? If Jon was Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, why not have him look more like Brandon, the male version of Lyanna? Rickon's wolf is black, that doesn't mean he isn't Ned's son, it means he's different than the other Stark children in that he does what he wants, and rarely respects authority, like the Blackfish. Ghost is white because he was meant to be the Stark bastard's companion. Ghost is the reversed sigil on the "shield that guards the realms of men"

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Ok define legal in Westeros cause i am still trying to figure it out. So far it falls in line with the law of total fucking corruption. "I have rights", stab, stab, stab. Hey look a will stab, stab, stab. Lannisters, I swear this time we will be honest, really, what? I'm a king I claim this realm, everyone else, burning leeches, shadow babies, Faceless men, poison, shredded documents, war, murder, and mayhem. We are your banner men, we are totally with you, hey how about a nice wedding. House Tyrell, hey have you met our daughter? Oh look a bunch of poor children stab, stab, stab. Hey thanks for this glass of wi...gaaak!! Hey a child wants me to open a wooden ball how cute, lets see what's iinside. I'm the king my will is law, rip, tear, shred. As the 997 lord commander I command you to stab, stab, stab. As the 998 Lord Commander I am going stab, stab, stab. Would anyone like some honeyed locust? Let's make this little girl a Queen, Darkstar "slice" I totally promise to bend the knee until such time as I choose not to. Robert they are totally your children, totally. Ned Stark, I am totally going to do the right thing, slice. Peaches, I love peaches. I'm a king no I'm the king, No I'm the king, I thought I was the king, war, war, war, war. The North Remembers, we remember southerns are crazy and to stay the fuck away from them.

Great post :thumbsup:

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You think what Stannis has given them is even close to enough? Haha wow, you should really re evaluate the way you look at full scale warfare. This isn't an army of wildlings we're talking about, this is a full size army of fucking zombies the likes of which Westeros has not seen since the first Battle for Dawn thousands of years ago. To put it simply, the current man power and resources they have right now even with Stannis's help and the dragonglass wouldn't stand a chance and the Others would kill them all....

The wildlings have given him some 1500 fighting men plus spearwives and a good supply of dragonglass weapons. The North is at war with itself and the remaining ironborn and nobody in the south would take their pleas seriously even if Jon should become KitN, in which case they would declare war on him. Also, you seem to be forgetting that the NW has a Wall seven hundred feet high with contless spells woven into its foundations. The Others and the wights have to bring down the Wall to wage war on humanity

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You think what Stannis has given them is even close to enough? Haha wow, you should really re evaluate the way you look at full scale warfare. This isn't an army of wildlings we're talking about, this is a full size army of fucking zombies the likes of which Westeros has not seen since the first Battle for Dawn thousands of years ago. To put it simply, the current man power and resources they have right now even with Stannis's help and the dragonglass wouldn't stand a chance and the Others would kill them all....

Has Stannis' stuff even arrived? Any evidence of that?

If I remember correctly, and feel free to gently correct me if I'm wrong, there were 30-40,000 Wildlings on the other side of the Wall? There's a few thousand on the south side of it at this point, so how many are on the side where the dead walk again? Yeah, A LOT of them. We're going to be seeing those again, on top of all the others that already went missing before Mance gathered them, and then there's the question on how many Wights rose in the years the Others were more dormant.

A few hundred children and older men, as per Jon, won't be able to do much but to die or run away. I wonder how many will desert when they see what's coming for them.

Dragonglass is only for the Others. There's probably hundreds of times more servants, and only fire and hacking them into pieces works for them. Those few hundred NW men will die before they meet an Other.

As for the whole discussion of Jon being KitN or being on the IT, people can kick and screech against it all they like, but there's some good points in the theory, and some of it has already been set up. No one would ever claim Jon desires power, but he sure knows the duty of protecting the realm of men. It's his theme.

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