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R+L=J v 59


Stubby

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Then why give Jon a direwolf if he's one of the heads of the dragon? Why would we learn that bastards reverse their House colors to make their own sigils? If Jon was Lyanna and Rhaegar's son, why not have him look more like Brandon, the male version of Lyanna? Rickon's wolf is black, that doesn't mean he isn't Ned's son, it means he's different than the other Stark children in that he does what he wants, and rarely respects authority, like the Blackfish. Ghost is white because he was meant to be the Stark bastard's companion. Ghost is the reversed sigil on the "shield that guards the realms of men"

Ummmm gee idk, maybe because he's also has the blood of the first men in his veins since again his mother would be Lyanna Stark? Maybe to eventually show the readers Jon's warging abilities like another character who like Jon would also have half Targ blood and half blood of the first men aka Bloodraven? Oh and maybe to throw readers like you off from the truth of R+L=J because you're so stubbornly stuck on Jon being Ned's bastard simply because of the color of his wolf, that you ignore the overwhelming evidence for R+L=J. Tell me hot shot, what were the 'promises' Ned made to the dying Lyanna that were so important to Lyanna that Ned described her clinging on to life until he got there and then immediately died with relief after he made the promises? Why did Lyanna die in a bed of blood when GRRM has associated a bed of blood meaning child birth in the series multiple times in the text? Why is Ned so secretive about Jon's mother? Why doesn't Ned seem to have any ill will toward Rhaegar the man Robert believes kidnapped and raped his sister? Why is it Ned never tells Jon who his mother is? You said earlier that Jon looked like Ned but it's also stated that Jon resembles Arya more than any other sibling and Arya by Ned's own admission strongly resembles Lyanna, so Jon looks like Arya who strongly resembles Lyanna......Hmmm I'm sure there's not a connection there.

Why are the events at the TOJ such a mystery and the only other confirmed person other than Ned that was there Howland Reed has yet to show his face and also happens to be the man who Robb sent his will to? Why were the KG so incessant on fighting Ned to the death even though they knew Rhaegar was dead and all that Ned wanted was his sister back and yet they still fought to the death to keep him from her? Oh yes and after all these mysterious events that happened right before, during, and after the TOJ, the honorable Ned Stark just happens to come home with a bastard boy Jon Snow who must look like Lyanna if he's said to look like Arya who looks like Lyanna and who's mother Ned refuses to name to Cat, ya that's totally not shady, and Jon is certainly Ned's bastard... :rolleyes:

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Has Stannis' stuff even arrived? Any evidence of that?

If I remember correctly, and feel free to gently correct me if I'm wrong, there were 30-40,000 Wildlings on the other side of the Wall? There's a few thousand on the south side of it at this point, so how many are on the side where the dead walk again? Yeah, A LOT of them. We're going to be seeing those again, on top of all the others that already went missing before Mance gathered them, and then there's the question on how many Wights rose in the years the Others were more dormant.

A few hundred children and older men, as per Jon, won't be able to do much but to die or run away. I wonder how many will desert when they see what's coming for them.

Dragonglass is only for the Others. There's probably hundreds of times more servants, and only fire and hacking them into pieces works for them. Those few hundred NW men will die before they meet an Other.

As for the whole discussion of Jon being KitN or being on the IT, people can kick and screech against it all they like, but there's some good points in the theory, and some of it has already been set up. No one would ever claim Jon desires power, but he sure knows the duty of protecting the realm of men. It's his theme.

Stannis sent a raven in ASOS to his castellan at Dragonstone to mine obsidian and send it to the Wall. Jon takes men out to the weirwood grove in ADWD and says he wants "Ten rangers armed with dragonglass"

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We do know that. The first time the raven calls Jon "king" is after Jon finds out that Robb is dead, so it is after Robb writes the will.

No man it was after his father was killed, Robb died in swords no Kings. The Raven calls Jon King in Chapter 6 of kings while discussing Aemon and the dragon kings with Mormont. Robb does not discuss the will wiht his Mother till after Sansa and Tyrion are to be married or married, he believes Bran and Rick are dead and Arya missing. The conversation took place after Hoster Tully died. Robb was alive in Kings he died in Swords.

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Ok define legal in Westeros cause i am still trying to figure it out. So far it falls in line with the law of total fucking corruption. "I have rights", stab, stab, stab. Hey look a will stab, stab, stab. Lannisters, I swear this time we will be honest, really, what? I'm a king I claim this realm, everyone else, burning leeches, shadow babies, Faceless men, poison, shredded documents, war, murder, and mayhem. We are your banner men, we are totally with you, hey how about a nice wedding. House Tyrell, hey have you met our daughter? Oh look a bunch of poor children stab, stab, stab. Hey thanks for this glass of wi...gaaak!! Hey a child wants me to open a wooden ball how cute, lets see what's iinside. I'm the king my will is law, rip, tear, shred. As the 997 lord commander I command you to stab, stab, stab. As the 998 Lord Commander I am going stab, stab, stab. Would anyone like some honeyed locust? Let's make this little girl a Queen, Darkstar "slice" I totally promise to bend the knee until such time as I choose not to. Robert they are totally your children, totally. Ned Stark, I am totally going to do the right thing, slice. Peaches, I love peaches. I'm a king no I'm the king, No I'm the king, I thought I was the king, war, war, war, war. The North Remembers, we remember southerns are crazy and to stay the fuck away from them.

Thus the reason I said there will be a council meeting to decide who will be KITN in which Robb's will, would indeed be used to make a case for Jon. Also the North isn't like the south in terms of how they view the King's words. The North takes their Stark lord's and king's words to heart as long as that lord or king is indeed a Stark who's house had held dominion over the North for ages before Robb's death. Further proof of this is when Robert is laying on his death bed he asks Ned to name himself LP until Joeffry comes of age, now if Warden of the North Ned really didn't think a king's words mattered after their death, well then he would've just wrote what Robert wanted, but instead he writes, "until the true heir come of age". Why does he do this? Because he thinks Robert's documented wishes upon his death still holds the most power in the realm and even though Cersei brushed it off, the very fact that Ned actually thought it would make a difference is a reflection of the way the North views the spoken or documented words of a king even in death. Ned was the Lord of Winterfell and GRRM suggests more than one time in the text that the northern kingdom's general loyal and honorable attitude was directly reflected by their Stark leadership. So yes I think Robb's will, is going to matter to a lot of lords in the North.

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Ummmm gee idk, maybe because he's also has the blood of the first men in his veins since again his mother would be Lyanna Stark? Maybe to eventually show the readers Jon's warging abilities like another character who like Jon would also have half Targ blood half blood of the first men aka Bloodraven? Oh and maybe to throw readers like you off from the truth of R+L=J because you're so stubbornly stuck on Jon being Ned's bastard simply because of the color of his wolf, that you ignore the overwhelming evidence for R+L=J. Tell me hot shot, what were the 'promises' Ned made to the dying Lyanna that were so important to Lyanna that Ned described her clinging on to life until he got there and then immediately died with relief after he made the promises? Why did Lyanna die in a bed of blood when GRRM has associated a bed of blood meaning child birth in the series multiple times in the text? Why is Ned so secretive about Jon's mother? Why doesn't Ned seem to have any ill will toward Rhaegar the man Robert believes kidnapped and raped his sister? Why is it Ned never tells Jon who his mother is? You said earlier that Jon looked like Ned but it's also stated that Jon resembles Arya more than any other sibling and Arya by Ned's own admission strongly resembles Lyanna, so Jon looks like Arya who strongly resembles Lyanna......

Hmmm I'm sure there's not a connection there. Why are the events at the TOJ such a mystery and the only other confirmed person other than Ned that was there Howland Reed has yet to show his face and also happens to be the man who Robb sent his will to? Why were the KG so incessant on fighting Ned to the death even though they knew Rhaegar was dead and all that Ned wanted was his sister back and yet they still fought to the death to keep him from her? Oh yes and after all these mysterious events that happened right before, during, and after the TOJ, the honorable Ned Stark just happens to come home with a bastard boy Jon Snow who must look like Lyanna if he's said to look like Arya who looks like Lyanna and who's mother Ned refuses to name to Cat, ya that's totally not shady......

Aegon being Rhaegar's son explains the TOJ events as well as R+L=J. Have you ever questioned why Wylla was named as Jon's mother twice, and why one of Wyman Manderly's grandaughters has the same name? Can you deny that Arya heard the name Wylla for a reason? Why did Ned want Cat to forgive him? He asked the gods if she could find it in her heart to forgive him, can you think of any reason Ned would pray for that before his gods? Maybe because he dishonored himself and broke a vow like Jon did with Ygritte. The parallel is there if you care to see it. Wylla could have died and Ned could have fallen in love with her at Harrenhal, rather than Ashara. R+L=J is a valid theory, but it's not the only possible answer

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No man it was after his father was killed, Robb died in swords no Kings. The Raven calls Jon King in Chapter 6 of kings while discussing Aemon and the dragon kings with Mormont. Robb does not discuss the will wiht his Mother till after Sansa and Tyrion are to be married or married, he believes Bran and Rick are dead and Arya missing. The conversation took place after Hoster Tully died. Robb was alive in Kings he died in Swords.

The scene you are describing takes place in ACOK and the raven says the word "king" but he is not calling Jon "king." This passage is often misread because people think the raven says king while staring at Jon. In fact, the raven says king while flying around, landing on Mormont -- not Jon -- and strutting back and forth. If you read carefully, you see that Mormont -- not the raven -- is the one staring at Jon.

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Thus the reason I said there will be a council meeting to decide who will be KITN in which Robb's will, would indeed be used to make a case for Jon. Also the North isn't like the south in terms of how they view the King's words. The North takes their Stark lord's and king's words to heart as long as that lord or king is indeed a Stark who's house had held dominion over the North for ages before Robb's death. Further proof of this is when Robert is laying on his death bed he asks Ned to name himself LP until Joeffry comes of age, now if Warden of the North Ned really didn't think a king's words mattered after their death, well then he would've just wrote what Robert wanted, but instead he writes, "until the true heir come of age". Why does he do this? Because he thinks Robert's documented wishes upon his death still holds the most power in the realm and even though Cersei brushed it off, the very fact that Ned actually thought it would make a difference is a reflection of the way the North views the spoken or documented words of a king even in death. Ned was the Lord of Winterfell and GRRM suggests more than one time in the text that the northern kingdom's general loyal and honorable attitude was directly reflected by their Stark leadership. So yes I think Robb's will, is going to matter to a lot of lords in the North.

Oh I know you know about the crazy that is Westeros politics, but who could resist pointing out all that crazy.

I think the Will is going to matter as well. Not to everyone, I think you will get a pro camp, a neutral camp, a confused camp, a camp that doesn't believe it, the I don't give a fuck camp I am sick of war, the Boltons allied to south, the wait we made a pact with Stannis camp, Stannis, etc... Oh and that one Lady from a good size house who hates Ned and is not all that pro stark.

I got house Mormont, Glover, and Reed locked for Jon.

I think Manderly keeps his word with Davos and the Karstarks with Stannis have bent the knee while the others side with Jon. I also think Manderly will opt for Stark Lordship but Stannis rule, the North needs allies if it's going to rebel again and the country is split and fractured. Manderly will be practical about it.

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"We know that for a fact", that's cheeky Twins. Your totally welcome for the latest info on Robbs will, okk it's a decade old but you just found out so it's new for you. You know I am kidding right? Robb being dead in Kings, that's just silly.

No worries -- this is all in good fun.

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The scene you are describing takes place in ACOK and the raven says the word "king" but he is not calling Jon "king." This passage is often misread because people think the raven says king while staring at Jon. In fact, the raven says king while flying around, landing on Mormont -- not Jon -- and strutting back and forth. If you read carefully, you see that Mormont -- not the raven -- is the one staring at Jon.

Yeah I know that what seen are you talking about? He says the word 3 times. Is there scene where the raven walks up to Jon and says your the king buddy good luck, that I missed? Using the word in his presence is using the word in his presence.

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Aegon being Rhaegar's son explains the TOJ events as well as R+L=J. Have you ever questioned why Wylla was named as Jon's mother twice, and why one of Wyman Manderly's grandaughters has the same name? Can you deny that Arya heard the name Wylla for a reason? Why did Ned want Cat to forgive him? He asked the gods if she could find it in her heart to forgive him, can you think of any reason Ned would pray for that before his gods? Maybe because he dishonored himself and broke a vow like Jon did with Ygritte. The parallel is there if you care to see it. Wylla could have died and Ned could have fallen in love with her at Harrenhal, rather than Ashara. R+L=J is a valid theory, but it's not the only possible answer

Oh you mean the Aegon who Ned refers to in his head as being dead multiple times in GOT, that Aegon? Strange that Ned would think that a boy he saw at that TOJ was dead. Tell me if Aegon was at the TOJ at any point before Ned arrived, don't you think Lyanna would've mentioned it to Ned? You still haven't answered what Lyanna's promises were to Ned that were so important to Lyanna that Ned described her clinging on to life until he got there and then immediately died with relief after he made the promises? And don't even think about saying it was to keep Aegon's switch a secrete, because if that were the case then Ned wouldn't have thoughts in which he clearly thinks Aegon is currently dead and that he died on the orders of Tywin Lannister now would he?

As for Cat, well gee maybe Ned feels guilt at the fact that he's had to lie to Cat and make her believe he cheated on her and that Jon is his bastard when that's really not the case? I mean just because Ned knows his infidelity isn't true, still doesn't change the fact that it's obviously as real as could possibly be to Cat who Ned keeps the truth about Jon from therefore he feels guilt over the pain he's caused her for something that's not even true and yet he's continued to allow her to believe...

Finally to Wylla, this too has been argued and put down multiple times in the past so I suggest you go back to some of the earlier threads and take a look. Has it ever occurred to you that Wyalla might have been present at the TOJ? Let's see Edric Dayne says she's been in service to house Dayne as a wet nurse for years, the TOJ was in Dorne, not remarkably far from Starfall the seat of House Dayne, and one of the KG guarding Lyanna happened to be Arthur Dayne of Starfall, one might think Arthur arranged for Wylla to come to the TOJ in order to help take care of Lyanna and her soon to be baby.

Howland Reed is the only other 'confirmed' survivor at the TOJ and yet when Ned thinks about the events of the TOJ after all the fighting is done and Ned makes his promise to Lyanna, Ned says 'they' found him with a dead Lyanna. But if it's suppose to only be Howland left with Ned then why does Ned say "they found him" instead of "He found him"? I'm guessing there was someone else we don't know about at the TOJ, and that someone was Wylla, who then agrees with Ned to go along with the story that she's Jon's mother in order to keep the events of the TOJ a secrete and keep suspicion off Lyanna and Rhaegar being Jon's parents.....Sorry but you're gonna have to do better than that if you want to honestly challenge R+L=J.

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Like you I think the Wylla is significant.

I am NOT sold on the Lyanna/Rhaegar idea, but now swing to Jon being Ned's son by a Manderly, possibly even a twin to the Wylla of White Harbour.

I also have a slight suspicion that GRRM may have CHANGED HIS MIND. There was a very, very very, long break in the books. Is that because GRRM is just not quite sure how to take his characters.

The pointers that we saw in GoT may no longer be relevant for GRRM and new ones are being given.

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Oh I know you know about the crazy that is Westeros politics, but who could resist pointing out all that crazy.

I think the Will is going to matter as well. Not to everyone, I think you will get a pro camp, a neutral camp, a confused camp, a camp that doesn't believe it, the I don't give a fuck camp I am sick of war, the Boltons allied to south, the wait we made a pact with Stannis camp, Stannis, etc... Oh and that one Lady from a good size house who hates Ned and is not all that pro stark.

I got house Mormont, Glover, and Reed locked for Jon.

I think Manderly keeps his word with Davos and the Karstarks with Stannis have bent the knee while the others side with Jon. I also think Manderly will opt for Stark Lordship but Stannis rule, the North needs allies if it's going to rebel again and the country is split and fractured. Manderly will be practical about it.

Haha ya it's going to be interesting to see who sides with who, but ultimately I think Jon will come out on top. Either way it's going to be close decision.

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Like you I think the Wylla is significant.

I am NOT sold on the Lyanna/Rhaegar idea, but now swing to Jon being Ned's son by a Manderly, possibly even a twin to the Wylla of White Harbour.

I also have a slight suspicion that GRRM may have CHANGED HIS MIND. There was a very, very very, long break in the books. Is that because GRRM is just not quite sure how to take his characters.

The pointers that we saw in GoT may no longer be relevant for GRRM and new ones are being given.

GRRM has already said several times in past interviews that he doesn't change his stories if fans have caught on to a major plot point pre maturely, so unless GRRM is a liar, then he's not changing R+L=J. D&D said they were able to figure out who Jon's parents were based on the GOT book alone which also happens to be the heaviest R+L=J book in the series in terms of evidence, Wylla Manderly isn't even mentioned until AFFC. So I don't see how D&D could've possible figured out a Manderly connection to Jon from GOT.....

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GRRM does not need to be a liar. He just may have changes his story a bit.

I agree there are lots of hints at Jon being a King.

But there is also evidence that Ned DID have a bastard, else how did he dishonour Cat in the eyes of GOD (man OK by acknowledging Jon, but the Gods know the truth.

If it is not Jon then it needs to be someone else.

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I really have started fearing about the R+L=J...And my fear is linked directly to the TV series.

R+L=J might actually might turn out not being true afterall because there hasn't been any build up or foreshadowing in the TV show.

This is how I have come to this conclusion.

So D&D know how the story goes as the know how the story ends.Things which are usually left to our imagination in the books, are clearly shown to us and revealed in the TV show.(Either directly and indirectly or with changes to the plot)

Some examples:

1.Readers didn't guess Whitebeard was Selmy but in the TV show there was no Whitebeard.

2.Readers still see Margaery as an innocent teenager,but the TV show has made her true nature and motives clear from the start.

3.The Jeyne Westerling conspiracy theory was completely disproved when the TV producers placed Talisa in the RW.

4.While the book kinda leaves us a tiny hope of Robb surviving the RW...The TV show makes it clear that he is dead.

5.Ramsay was disguising as Reek in the book.TV show showed us Ramsay from the start.

etc.etc.etc.

Which makes me think, if R+L=J is true?Then why haven't we had some clues, some foreshadowing.

TV viewers who haven't read the book at all may not even see this coming, and if it comes will it even matter since many may not even remember who Rhaegar is or who don't know who characters like Arthur Dayne and Howland Reed are?I don't know.

That's why I am worried for this widely accepted theory which I of course subscribe to as well.

My brother and I we were talking about the books and the show over lunch today and this came up. I've read all of the books and he's only watched the show (I got him a complete set of the series to read, he said he found them boring :dunno:). Out of the blue he tells me that he thinks that R+L=J and asked me if I had picked up on that too. I told him yes, but not until I read the books and I was shocked that he'd figured it out just from watching the show, but he had indeed. I guess it's not completely absent from the show, but I agree with you that it's really been watered down.

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GRRM does not need to be a liar. He just may have changes his story a bit.

I agree there are lots of hints at Jon being a King.

But there is also evidence that Ned DID have a bastard, else how did he dishonour Cat in the eyes of GOD (man OK by acknowledging Jon, but the Gods know the truth.

If it is not Jon then it needs to be someone else.

Ned says that to Robert who is also already under the impression that Wylla is Jon's mother. Only natural that Ned would tell this to Robert thus making it even more likely that Robert would believe Wylla is actually Jon's mother....So no, it doesn't have to be someone else, Ned could've simply been lying to Robert, the same way he would've been in originally telling Robert that Wylla was Jon's mother to begin with.

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Aegon being Rhaegar's son explains the TOJ events as well as R+L=J. Have you ever questioned why Wylla was named as Jon's mother twice, and why one of Wyman Manderly's grandaughters has the same name? Can you deny that Arya heard the name Wylla for a reason? Why did Ned want Cat to forgive him? He asked the gods if she could find it in her heart to forgive him, can you think of any reason Ned would pray for that before his gods? Maybe because he dishonored himself and broke a vow like Jon did with Ygritte.

Or, maybe, just maybe, for lying to her about Jon being his son? For lying to her and saying that he had dishonored her? For withholding the name of Jon's mother? For committing treason that could result in all of her children being put to death? Really shallow readin skills to think less.
The parallel is there if you care to see it. Wylla could have died and Ned could have fallen in love with her at Harrenhal, rather than Ashara. R+L=J is a valid theory, but it's not the only possible answer

I'm sorry, the answers to you suggestions are already in the Reference Guide on page one. Take a read. ;)
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