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R+L=J v 59


Stubby

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Oh you mean the Aegon who Ned refers to in his head as being dead multiple times in GOT, that Aegon? Strange that Ned would think that a boy he saw at that TOJ was dead. Tell me if Aegon was at the TOJ at any point before Ned arrived, don't you think Lyanna would've mentioned it to Ned? You still haven't answered what Lyanna's promises were to Ned that were so important to Lyanna that Ned described her clinging on to life until he got there and then immediately died with relief after he made the promises? And don't even think about saying it was to keep Aegon's switch a secrete, because if that were the case then Ned wouldn't have thoughts in which he clearly thinks Aegon is currently dead and that he died on the orders of Tywin Lannister now would he?

As for Cat, well gee maybe Ned feels guilt at the fact that he's had to lie to Cat and make her believe he cheated on her and that Jon is his bastard when that's really not the case? I mean just because Ned knows his infidelity isn't true, still doesn't change the fact that it's obviously as real as could possibly be to Cat who Ned keeps the truth about Jon from therefore he feels guilt over the pain he's caused her for something that's not even true and yet he's continued to allow her to believe...

Finally to Wylla, this too has been argued and put down multiple times in the past so I suggest you go back to some of the earlier threads and take a look. Has it ever occurred to you that Wyalla might have been present at the TOJ? Let's see Edric Dayne says she's been in service to house Dayne as a wet nurse for years, the TOJ was in Dorne, not remarkably far from Starfall the seat of House Dayne, and one of the KG guarding Lyanna happened to be Arthur Dayne of Starfall, one might think Arthur arranged for Wylla to come to the TOJ in order to help take care of Lyanna and her soon to be baby.

Howland Reed is the only other 'confirmed' survivor at the TOJ and yet when Ned thinks about the events of the TOJ after all the fighting is done and Ned makes his promise to Lyanna, Ned says 'they' found him with a dead Lyanna. But if it's suppose to only be Howland left with Ned then why does Ned say "they found him" instead of "He found him"? I'm guessing there was someone else we don't know about at the TOJ, and that someone was Wylla, who then agrees with Ned to go along with the story that she's Jon's mother in order to keep the events of the TOJ a secrete and keep suspicion off Lyanna and Rhaegar being Jon's parents.....Sorry but you're gonna have to do better than that if you want to honestly challenge R+L=J.

Ned had already seen the babes get laid beneath the Iron Throne. (f)Aegon is Rhaegar's bastard by Lyanna born at the TOJ. Ned hardly knew Cat when he went off to war, and if he was lying to her for a good reason he wouldn't need to cleanse himself in the godswood. Wylla could very well have been at the TOJ, where Ned was grieving over his sister's body. Five of Ned's friends had also just been cut down so is it that absurd that Wylla comforted Ned like Jeyne comforted Robb after he heard about Bran and Rickon's "deaths"?

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Ned hardly knew Cat when he went off to war, and if he was lying to her for a good reason he wouldn't need to cleanse himself in the godswood.

Whether or not it's for a good reason, Ned is still lying to his wife and to his king (the latter of which constitutes treason) and thereby endangering his family. That's a big deal to a guy like him.

Five of Ned's friends had also just been cut down so is it that absurd that Wylla comforted Ned like Jeyne comforted Robb after he heard about Bran and Rickon's "deaths"?

Yes, because Jon was born around the time that you're proposing he was conceived. If Ned and Wylla conceived Jon at all, it was early in the war and not at the ToJ.

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Ned had already seen the babes get laid beneath the Iron Throne. (f)Aegon is Rhaegar's bastard by Lyanna born at the TOJ. Ned hardly knew Cat when he went off to war, and if he was lying to her for a good reason he wouldn't need to cleanse himself in the godswood. Wylla could very well have been at the TOJ, where Ned was grieving over his sister's body. Five of Ned's friends had also just been cut down so is it that absurd that Wylla comforted Ned like Jeyne comforted Robb after he heard about Bran and Rickon's "deaths"?

So instead of taking his nephew with him back safely to Winterfell where he knows he can keep him safe which is what would be the case if R+L=J is true, Ned would choose to instead risk sending his sister's baby across the narrow sea into foreign territory and basically into exile for the rest of his life where any number of things can happen to put his nephew far away from him in danger which would be the case if your Faegon theory is correct? Ya, you're right that totally makes more sense than R+L=J, again you still haven't answered what Ned's 'promises' could've possibly been and why they were so important to Lyanna......

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I would also like to see Robb's bannerman's explanation for why Ned thinks to himself that he has been "living" lies for fourteen years, unless I've missed such an explanation earlier in the thread. While we're at it, what explanation do you have for the blue rose/wall of ice imagery from one of Dany's HotU visions?

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I would also like to see Robb's bannerman's explanation for why Ned thinks to himself that he has been "living" lies for fourteen years, unless I've missed such an explanation earlier in the thread. While we're at it, what explanation do you have for the blue rose/wall of ice imagery from one of Dany's HotU visions?

:agree: Exactly, well said.

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I would also like to see Robb's bannerman's explanation for why Ned thinks to himself that he has been "living" lies for fourteen years, unless I've missed such an explanation earlier in the thread. While we're at it, what explanation do you have for the blue rose/wall of ice imagery from one of Dany's HotU visions?

Ned had been lying to Robert about Rhaegar for fourteen years. Ned knows Lyanna loved Rhaegar and he went along with the rape version, and even told it to his children. Bran says that Lyanna was raped by Rhaegar, and as he had minimal contact with Robert, I doubt that's where he got his knowledge. Arya is said to look like Lyanna, who was known for being fond of roses. Dany's vision symbolizes her coming to Jon and telling him who his mother was.

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Ned had been lying to Robert about Rhaegar for fourteen years. Ned knows Lyanna loved Rhaegar and he went along with the rape version, and even told it to his children. Bran says that Lyanna was raped by Rhaegar, and as he had minimal contact with Robert, I doubt that's where he got his knowledge. Arya is said to look like Lyanna, who was known for being fond of roses. Dany's vision symbolizes her coming to Jon and telling him who his mother was.

So you think it's more likely that the blue rose means Arya who looks like Lyanna is going to travel all the way from Essos to the Wall and tell Jon who is mother is, then the blue rose simply meaning Jon's(who would be Lyanna's own son) presence at the wall, which is where he was located in 4 out of the 5 books? Lovin the logic here. :rolleyes:

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Ned had been lying to Robert about Rhaegar for fourteen years.

Ok, but this constitutes telling a lie. Living a lie means something different. It involves presenting something about oneself to the world that is false. To this day, I have yet to see anyone offer a reasonable counter-example to explain why Ned has been living lies. Almost invariably they confuse telling vs living lies, as you've done here.

Arya is said to look like Lyanna, who was known for being fond of roses. Dany's vision symbolizes her coming to Jon and telling him who his mother was.

You're really reaching here.

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Could any of the R+L=J regulars help me out for a second? Is there an ongoing theory that when Mormonts raven calls Jon King after Robbs death that the Raven is refering to King in the north and not King of Westeros?

Cause that doesn't make a whole lot of sense as it would be completely pointless for the reader and Jon as Robb already explained everything befoer hand.

1. We can assume this is not an all knowing Raven and that Bloodraven on occasion uses him as a form of communication or the bird has traces of Bloodraven in him and is repeating what blood Raven has thought.

2. We saw the entire Robb Stark conversation already we already know what is in the will. Sure we don't know the wording but we as the reader were already told he is going to legitimize Jon, and make him his heir. We know the will was written out and we know it was sent out. We know Robb died already, the Raven does not need to tell the reader anything, we already been told in a much more sentient and official way.

3. Jon basically has two options with the will. 1. He can keep his vows stay Jon Snow and Winterfell passes to whoever Bran, Rickard, Arya, Sansa someone else whoever. 2. He can except the will become Jon Stark lord of Winterfell and Westeros Politics ensue, conflicts with his vows, conflicts with the will of the King of Westeros, conflict within his family, LF wants Winterfell, in order to become King he would have actually declear he is King and succeed from the Kingdom and start another war. It's to much to write down but basically saying yes to the will is a hornets nest.

4. So in the scene in the books if we assume that Martin is using the raven to communicate with the reader then wouldn't be either foreshadowing about eithert Bloodraven being alive (this is swords) or Jon being King of Westeros, or both? There exists zero need for him to communicate King of the North, we were just told that by Robb and then saw Robb die and we know he got his will sent off. The Raven is not a device used to deliver a King in the North message, we already got the message from a much more reliable source. So that really only leaves the other two reasons.

5. Putting aside all laws and confusion over Westeros laws and politics. It seems a man can leave the watch if offered Kingship, Aemon was offered it, but declined to keep his oath. So not really getting into the political aspect of the crazy that is Westeros, Jon is not the heir to Winterfell, this is a Monarchy Jon is currently the actual Lord of Winterfell and legitimized by Robb, he just doesn't know it. He can turn all that down and pass it on to the next in line, but succession doesn't happen when he gets the will, it happened when Robb died. Technically people should be working on his behalf right now at least those that support him and know, and they should be trying to get to him. Well at least by Southern westeros law he is Lord of Winterfell, even legally, but the Vows can probably block that.

6. Now when it comes to the vows, I am thinking there are probably a few rear exceptions to them, being releaved from your watch by the King which Stannis offered to do seems to be one. Inheriting the title of King or maybe even another major title where the LC deems it's more important for you to be there then the Wall and the King is ok with it of course if you are the King you can pretty much do what you want.

7. The title given to Jon by Robb was king in the North right? And Jon has not surrendered even though most of the north has bent the knee. So Technically Bowen Marsh did one of two things. He either platted and attempted to assasinate the LC of the Watch, Lord of Winterfell and King in the North. Or He plotted and attempted to assasinate the LC of the Watch, Lord of Winterfell, King in the North, the Prince of Dragonstone, and rightful Heir to the Iron Throne and Nephew to one of the most hot tempered military rulers in the world who happens to have an army, 3 dragons and is desperate for a family to love, a 1st cousin who is faceless, another first cousin who is about to become lady of the Vale, another Cousin may be the second most powerful being alive, and a great, great, great, Uncle who is basically an earth bound god.

8. So how fucked is Marsh?

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Look the evidence for L+R=J is strong

However Ned says he dishonours Catelyn in the yes of GODS and MAN.

OK so the Man part is easy - he tells her Jon is his bastard and keeps him

But the Gods part - not so clear. Ned's actions are in no way dishonorable for the GODS who know the truth of his actions. Also there is a part when he thinks on the baby Barra and wonders why if bastards are so bad why do the Gods fill men with lusts.

However in the North there is a REAL fear of bastards, especially those NOT acknowledged by their fathers eg Craster.

Mind you the whole being abastard stuff is a little overdone - many a kingly/lordly bastard went on to do rather well.

Ever heard of William the Conquerer. Before he got that name he was William Bastardus, the bastard son of Robert of Normandy.

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Could any of the R+L=J regulars help me out for a second? Is there an ongoing theory that when Mormonts raven calls Jon King after Robbs death that the Raven is refering to King in the north and not King of Westeros?

Cause that doesn't make a whole lot of sense as it would be completely pointless for the reader and Jon as Robb already explained everything befoer hand.

1. We can assume this is not an all knowing Raven and that Bloodraven on occasion uses him as a form of communication or the bird has traces of Bloodraven in him and is repeating what blood Raven has thought.

2. We saw the entire Robb Stark conversation already we already know what is in the will. Sure we don't know the wording but we as the reader were already told he is going to legitimize Jon, and make him his heir. We know the will was written out and we know it was sent out. We know Robb died already, the Raven does not need to tell the reader anything, we already been told in a much more sentient and official way.

Mormont's raven/Bloodraven first calls Jon king long before Robb's death in ACOK I believe :

"King," croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," it said again, strutting back and forth.

"He likes that word," Jon said, smiling.

"An easy word to say. An easy word to like."

"King," the bird said again.

"I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord."

"The realm has three kings already, and that's two too many for my liking." Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

It made him feel odd.

Then he does it again in ADWD, whether he means KITN or the Iron Throne I'm not quite sure yet.

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I think there is another issue here.

The Starks are Lords of Winterfell

The Starks were Kings of the North.

These are both titles that can be handed down at the will of the King or Prince etc

BUT also

The Starks were Kings of Winter and I doubt that this title can be just handed around by a paper decree.

Now there IS possibly a King of Winter. It is Bran. He is hanging around with BR who for all intents and purposes is very like the legendary "King of Winter" - ie the the God Odin. However it is hard to understand how Bran can be both King of Winter AND Summer all at once so I think that the title of KoW MUST bypass Bran at least until the battle with the others is over. When very old Bran, may become KoW but not for many years.

So the question is When did the role of King of Winter separate from the Role of King in the North (If in fact it ever did)

One more thought

What if polygamy is accepted in the North (by the Gods) if not the rule of Westeros. After all it seems to be accepted by Craster and I suspect Tormund and the wildings. Ned may have MARRIED Jon's mother (once he found her pregnant) hence after Robb died he would in the eyes of the Gods become the next King of the North/Winter.

Perhaps the role of King of Winter passes brother to brother according to age, not by the patriarchal succession rules of Westeros.

Or EVEN the role could be through MATERNAL links not paternal ones. After all GRRM has based much of his story on Scottish/British history and succession was indeed MATERNAL not Paternal which was an import form the Andals/ AngloSaxons

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Mormont's raven/Bloodraven first calls Jon king long before Robb's death in ACOK I believe :

I don't think there is any reason to believe the raven was calling Jon "king" in that passage. That exchange takes place in the King's Tower, where Mormont has recently moved. Just before the bit you quoted, the raven says "Snow" in an apparent reference to Jon; "me, me, me" in an echo of the last word said by Thoren Smallwood; "old", repeating what Mormont just said about maps; "strong", repeating what Mormont just said about Aemon's ravens; "fool", repeating what Mormont said about Sam.

Then, before the raven says "king", Mormont mentions Renly, King's Landing, Joffrey, Aemon (who could have been king), Maekar, Daeron, Aegon IV, Aerys I, Robert, Aegon V, Jahaerys II, and Aerys II in that order -- so a lot of kings, including some Targs, some Barratheons and a Lannister. Then the raven says the word "king", apparently repeating a word that both Jon and Mormont have just said several times:

"King," croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," it said again, strutting back and forth.

"He likes that word," Jon said, smiling.

"An easy word to say. An easy word to like."

"King," the bird said again.

"I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord."

"The realm has three kings already, and that's two too many for my liking." Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

It made him feel odd.

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes, the raven just repeats a word that was just spoken -- in this case, many many times right before the raven said it.

The misconception about this passage appears to stem from the line "Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow." As I said before, however, it is not the raven who is looking at Jon. It is Mormont.

Then he does it again in ADWD, whether he means KITN or the Iron Throne I'm not quite sure yet.

I also thought the raven called Jon "king" in ADWD, but I can't find it now. Maybe I imagined it.

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I don't think there is any reason to believe the raven was calling Jon "king" in that passage. That exchange takes place in the King's Tower, where Mormont has recently moved. Just before the bit you quoted, the raven says "Snow" in an apparent reference to Jon; "me, me, me" in an echo of the last word said by Thoren Smallwood; "old", repeating what Mormont just said about maps; "strong", repeating what Mormont just said about Aemon's ravens; "fool", repeating what Mormont said about Sam.

Then, before the raven says "king", Mormont mentions Renly, King's Landing, Joffrey, Aemon (who could have been king), Maekar, Daeron, Aegon IV, Aerys I, Robert, Aegon V, Jahaerys II, and Aerys II in that order -- so a lot of kings, including some Targs, some Barratheons and a Lannister. Then the raven says the word "king", apparently repeating a word that both Jon and Mormont have just said several times:

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes, the raven just repeats a word that was just spoken -- in this case, many many times right before the raven said it.

The misconception about this passage appears to stem from the line "Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow." As I said before, however, it is not the raven who is looking at Jon. It is Mormont.

I also thought the raven called Jon "king" in ADWD, but I can't find it now. Maybe I imagined it.

The example of the raven calling Jon king in ADWD comes literally right after Jon has the dream where he's fighting the Others, here's the whole passage:

That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM

boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees.

"Stand fast," Jon Snow called. "Throw them back." He stood atop the Wall, alone. "Flame," he cried, "feed them flame," but there was no one to pay heed.

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow, " an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared. The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

… and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. "Snow, " the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom. The day had come. It was the hour of the wolf. Soon enough the sun would rise, and four thousand wildlings would come pouring through the Wall. Madness. Jon Snow ran his burned hand through his hair and wondered once again what he was doing. Once the gate was opened there would be no turning back. It should have been the Old Bear to treat with Tormund. It should have been Jaremy Rykker or Qhorin Halfhand or Denys Mallister or some other seasoned man. It should have been my uncle. It was too late for such misgivings, though. Every choice had its risks, every choice its consequences. He would play the game to its conclusion. He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn, " the bird said, and, "King, " and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow. " That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.

So you see the fact that the Raven does it again in ADWD is what leads ppl to believe the Raven was actually the one looking at Jon in ACOK. Also, the fact that the Raven out of all possible times chooses to do this in ADWD literally right after Jon has the AA/nightmarish sort of dream, in fact the raven actually seems to purposely wake Jon up from the nightmarish dream and then later calls Jon by his full time for the first time ever, is what leads many to suspect the Raven knew what Jon was dreaming about, because the Raven is actually Bloodraven, who as we already know, can see other ppl's dreams.

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It was mentioned on the Lineages book that Ned stark and Jon Arryn both were reading that black always over took every other color "the seed is strong" making it possible that Jon Snow took his hair and eye colors from starks rather than the targaryens. Also it was mentioned that roberts rebellion took a year in the book as well as it was said by Cat in season 1 when Ned was leaving with Robert again for Kings Landing, Lyanna making Ned promise him something and then dying peacefully, all adds up on R + L = J theory

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Could any of the R+L=J regulars help me out for a second? Is there an ongoing theory that when Mormonts raven calls Jon King after Robbs death that the Raven is refering to King in the north and not King of Westeros?

Cause that doesn't make a whole lot of sense as it would be completely pointless for the reader and Jon as Robb already explained everything befoer hand.

1. We can assume this is not an all knowing Raven and that Bloodraven on occasion uses him as a form of communication or the bird has traces of Bloodraven in him and is repeating what blood Raven has thought.

2. We saw the entire Robb Stark conversation already we already know what is in the will. Sure we don't know the wording but we as the reader were already told he is going to legitimize Jon, and make him his heir. We know the will was written out and we know it was sent out. We know Robb died already, the Raven does not need to tell the reader anything, we already been told in a much more sentient and official way.

3. Jon basically has two options with the will. 1. He can keep his vows stay Jon Snow and Winterfell passes to whoever Bran, Rickard, Arya, Sansa someone else whoever. 2. He can except the will become Jon Stark lord of Winterfell and Westeros Politics ensue, conflicts with his vows, conflicts with the will of the King of Westeros, conflict within his family, LF wants Winterfell, in order to become King he would have actually declear he is King and succeed from the Kingdom and start another war. It's to much to write down but basically saying yes to the will is a hornets nest.

4. So in the scene in the books if we assume that Martin is using the raven to communicate with the reader then wouldn't be either foreshadowing about eithert Bloodraven being alive (this is swords) or Jon being King of Westeros, or both? There exists zero need for him to communicate King of the North, we were just told that by Robb and then saw Robb die and we know he got his will sent off. The Raven is not a device used to deliver a King in the North message, we already got the message from a much more reliable source. So that really only leaves the other two reasons.

5. Putting aside all laws and confusion over Westeros laws and politics. It seems a man can leave the watch if offered Kingship, Aemon was offered it, but declined to keep his oath. So not really getting into the political aspect of the crazy that is Westeros, Jon is not the heir to Winterfell, this is a Monarchy Jon is currently the actual Lord of Winterfell and legitimized by Robb, he just doesn't know it. He can turn all that down and pass it on to the next in line, but succession doesn't happen when he gets the will, it happened when Robb died. Technically people should be working on his behalf right now at least those that support him and know, and they should be trying to get to him. Well at least by Southern westeros law he is Lord of Winterfell, even legally, but the Vows can probably block that.

6. Now when it comes to the vows, I am thinking there are probably a few rear exceptions to them, being releaved from your watch by the King which Stannis offered to do seems to be one. Inheriting the title of King or maybe even another major title where the LC deems it's more important for you to be there then the Wall and the King is ok with it of course if you are the King you can pretty much do what you want.

7. The title given to Jon by Robb was king in the North right? And Jon has not surrendered even though most of the north has bent the knee. So Technically Bowen Marsh did one of two things. He either platted and attempted to assasinate the LC of the Watch, Lord of Winterfell and King in the North. Or He plotted and attempted to assasinate the LC of the Watch, Lord of Winterfell, King in the North, the Prince of Dragonstone, and rightful Heir to the Iron Throne and Nephew to one of the most hot tempered military rulers in the world who happens to have an army, 3 dragons and is desperate for a family to love, a 1st cousin who is faceless, another first cousin who is about to become lady of the Vale, another Cousin may be the second most powerful being alive, and a great, great, great, Uncle who is basically an earth bound god.

8. So how fucked is Marsh?

Actually Aemon wasn't part of the Watch yet when he was offered the throne, just a Maester. He joined the Watch so Egg-who wanted his help-wouldn't have him for people to use him (Aemon) to undercut his rule.
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