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R+L=J v 59


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This conclusively demonstrates that the raven believes Jon Snow will one day be a piece of corn.

The raven also called him king, along with calling him by his full name Jon Snow, which is odd to Jon seeing as though the raven had never called Jon by his full name before that moment. I guess it's definitely simply just one huge coincidence that this happens immediately after the raven wakes him up from having a dream about him fighting the others, wielding a flaming sword, covered in black ice armor? Seriously if you want to be cheeky as the R+L=J detractor most long time members of this thread know you to be, then fine that's your prerogative, but no matter how much you want to disprove R+L=J, the supporters here will continue to brush your weak counter arguments aside, and yes I'm fully aware of the past detracting arguments you've 'attempted' to make on R+L=J in previous threads, and no, I don't think they're very convincing to say the least. :P

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2. We saw the entire Robb Stark conversation already we already know what is in the will. Sure we don't know the wording but we as the reader were already told he is going to legitimize Jon, and make him his heir. We know the will was written out and we know it was sent out. We know Robb died already, the Raven does not need to tell the reader anything, we already been told in a much more sentient and official way.[...]

6. Now when it comes to the vows, I am thinking there are probably a few rear exceptions to them, being releaved from your watch by the King which Stannis offered to do seems to be one. Inheriting the title of King or maybe even another major title where the LC deems it's more important for you to be there then the Wall and the King is ok with it of course if you are the King you can pretty much do what you want.

7. The title given to Jon by Robb was king in the North right? And Jon has not surrendered even though most of the north has bent the knee. So Technically Bowen Marsh did one of two things. He either platted and attempted to assasinate the LC of the Watch, Lord of Winterfell and King in the North. Or He plotted and attempted to assasinate the LC of the Watch, Lord of Winterfell, King in the North, the Prince of Dragonstone, and rightful Heir to the Iron Throne and Nephew to one of the most hot tempered military rulers in the world who happens to have an army, 3 dragons and is desperate for a family to love, a 1st cousin who is faceless, another first cousin who is about to become lady of the Vale, another Cousin may be the second most powerful being alive, and a great, great, great, Uncle who is basically an earth bound god.

8. So how fucked is Marsh?

Is it at all possible that Jon is already released of his vows when he becomes LC? We don't know the content of Robb's will, but, Robb did intend to have Jon freed of his vows...IMO, it makes sense for the will to containt that kind of information as well, something along the line of:

"I, Robb Stark King in the North and the Riverlands, hereby release Jon Snow, son of Eddard Stark of his vows to the Night's Watch and name him my heir."

If it has been decreed by the King in the North before his death, couldn't it be that Jon is in fact, no longer bound to the NW by the laws of Westeros?

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Sound the horn of Ygrain!

We need her.

Don't speak my name lest you might summon me :P

- Seriously, I'm supposed to be working now, but I have seen it all and I can only support what Dragonfish and Jon Icefyre have already said to the "arguments".

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Mormont's raven/Bloodraven first calls Jon king long before Robb's death in ACOK I believe :

"King," croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," it said again, strutting back and forth.

"He likes that word," Jon said, smiling.

"An easy word to say. An easy word to like."

"King," the bird said again.

"I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord."

"The realm has three kings already, and that's two too many for my liking." Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.

It made him feel odd.

Then he does it again in ADWD, whether he means KITN or the Iron Throne I'm not quite sure yet.

not that scene the other time the raven called him king after Robb died. That scene works just fine for me.

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Here's a question for the scholarly R+L=J peeps: If Robb's will as KitN legitimized Jon as a Stark and his heir, would Jon care about being a Targareyan after that? He wants to be a Stark, it seems, more than anything. Could he bring himself to give up the Stark name he craves and was his cousin/raised as brother's wish? Can he carry both names? Will both truths be revealed simultaneously or will the order of the reveal affect...idk everything? And will he have a shock of silver hair mixed with his dark when he wakes from his death/near death experience? (Hehe!)

Please forgive me and just provide me some links if this has been discussed before. I have skimmed a few pages o this thread and the FAQs before posting. There's A LOT so I need a MAP! I await your enlightenments, opinions, educated guesses and guidance forthwith!

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Ok define legal in Westeros cause i am still trying to figure it out. So far it falls in line with the law of total fucking corruption. "I have rights", stab, stab, stab. Hey look a will stab, stab, stab. Lannisters, I swear this time we will be honest, really, what? I'm a king I claim this realm, everyone else, burning leeches, shadow babies, Faceless men, poison, shredded documents, war, murder, and mayhem. We are your banner men, we are totally with you, hey how about a nice wedding. House Tyrell, hey have you met our daughter? Oh look a bunch of poor children stab, stab, stab. Hey thanks for this glass of wi...gaaak!! Hey a child wants me to open a wooden ball how cute, lets see what's iinside. I'm the king my will is law, rip, tear, shred. As the 997 lord commander I command you to stab, stab, stab. As the 998 Lord Commander I am going stab, stab, stab. Would anyone like some honeyed locust? Let's make this little girl a Queen, Darkstar "slice" I totally promise to bend the knee until such time as I choose not to. Robert they are totally your children, totally. Ned Stark, I am totally going to do the right thing, slice. Peaches, I love peaches. I'm a king no I'm the king, No I'm the king, I thought I was the king, war, war, war, war. The North Remembers, we remember southerns are crazy and to stay the fuck away from them.

best post ever !!!

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But the TV show hasn't been entirely without foreshadowing either.

Personally, I found the HOTU scene at the end of episode 2, with the falling snow in the throne room to be highly significant IMO. When I conversed with a few other viewers on the HBO threads, it was revealed that a blue rose was encrysted within the emblem of the seven kingdoms in the throne room.

Hmmm, I had forgot about the HOTU scenes.

However,we readers, of course know the significance of the blue roses, but I doubt TV viewers know it and as we all know the differences between TV/Film and Books, while the mentioning of blue roses in the books is more memorable in a way to readers, a blue rose in the background of a scene might not be noticed.That's why I am worried.

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This conclusively demonstrates that the raven believes Jon Snow will one day be a piece of corn.

I bow to your wit. And here I thought corn was phonetically related to the Latin word cornu, which means and is etymologically related to the English word horn. A phonetic trick pointing to the raven issuing a warning of sort and resonating beautifully with NW symbolism and lore (the Horn of Joramun, the three horn blasts etc.).

Alas, I'll have to rethink my deductions.

Don't speak my name lest you might summon me :P

- Seriously, I'm supposed to be working now, but I have seen it all and I can only support what Dragonfish and Jon Icefyre have already said to the "arguments".

LOL For once I don't regret timezone differences or else I'd have material enough for a mass psychology thesis on denial :lol:

It's good to have Dragonfish back on (R+L=J) board btw :bowdown:

Here's a question for the scholarly R+L=J peeps: If Robb's will as KitN legitimized Jon as a Stark and his heir, would Jon care about being a Targareyan after that? He wants to be a Stark, it seems, more than anything. Could he bring himself to give up the Stark name he craves and was his cousin/raised as brother's wish? Can he carry both names? Will both truths be revealed simultaneously or will the order of the reveal affect...idk everything? And will he have a shock of silver hair mixed with his dark when he wakes from his death/near death experience? (Hehe!)

Please forgive me and just provide me some links if this has been discussed before. I have skimmed a few pages o this thread and the FAQs before posting. There's A LOT so I need a MAP! I await your enlightenments, opinions, educated guesses and guidance forthwith!

To answer your questions we would need Melisandre's fires ;)

We don't really know how Jon will react to the big revelation. Up to this moment he has been living a farce of his self-perception and denied all the relevant informations (ancestry, dynamics of events, intent and motivations of the people involved etc.). Therefore we can only hypotesize his reaction on the base of the textual description of his character. My two cents, in chronological order of reaction lol:

- shock

- betrayal

- sadness/grief (for all the parties involved lost something in the process: Lyanna and Rhaegar, their life; Ned his honour and his peace of mind; Jon, his parents and identity)

- acceptance, a doleful but responsible acceptance

As for the shock of silver hair... imagine the reaction of Alliser Thorne :leer:

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I bow to your wit. And here I thought corn was phonetically related to the Latin word cornu, which means and is etymologically related to the English word horn. A phonetic trick pointing to the raven issuing a warning of sort and resonating beautifully with NW symbolism and lore (the Horn of Joramun, the three horn blasts etc.).

Alas, I'll have to rethink my deductions.

LOL For once I don't regret timezone differences or else I'd have material enough for a mass psychology thesis on denial :lol:

It's good to have Dragonfish back on (R+L=J) board btw :bowdown:

To answer your questions we would need Melisandre's fires ;)

We don't really know how Jon will react to the big revelation. Up to this moment he has been living a farce of his self-perception and denied all the relevant informations (ancestry, dynamics of events, intent and motivations of the people involved etc.). Therefore we can only hypotesize his reaction on the base of the textual description of his character. My two cents, in chronological order of reaction lol:

- shock

- betrayal

- sadness/grief (for all the parties involved lost something in the process: Lyanna and Rhaegar, their life; Ned his honour and his peace of mind; Jon, his parents and identity)

- acceptance, a doleful but responsible acceptance

As for the shock of silver hair... imagine the reaction of Alliser Thorne :leer:

And I think this is the main function and the Authors intent of the Gilly baby switch.

It's the pivotal event for Jon to look back to Neds actions and understand why he did it. Without Jon's being set up in this manner, the character response would not be so bittersweet or so understanding.

And to the list of his mother and father, I would also add the knowledge of the brutal deaths of his true half-siblings- Rhaenys and Aegon. If he finds out who he is before Dany and Aegon do, (Danys already been given hints), that may drive him to one, or the other.

Also, he must find out who he is before he fathers a child. Had he and Ygritte produced a child with silver hair, and purple eyes............. :shocked:

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Hmmm, I had forgot about the HOTU scenes.

However,we readers, of course know the significance of the blue roses, but I doubt TV viewers know it and as we all know the differences between TV/Film and Books, while the mentioning of blue roses in the books is more memorable in a way to readers, a blue rose in the background of a scene might not be noticed.That's why I am worried.

That's true, but the blue rose in the background scenes (as depicted on the stained glass window), I think is more for the true fan than the casual viewer. The casual viewer may never be moved to pick up a history book and research all the connections between aSoIaF and historical accounts, (i.e., the Red Wedding vs. the Black Dinner).

But, for that nod to the viewer who understands the importance of the blue rose, I am not worried, and I'm sure it will be spelled out for casual, TV viewer.

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Anyone have any thoughts as to why Ned didn't nurture & acknowledge the Ashara Dayne rumor? It seems a good cover story.

Jon's age dictates that he had to have been conceived after Ned was married. Fine. "Yeah, Cat, I met up w Ashara while I was fighting in the south. Old flames were rekindled, etc".

It's a ready made explanation in case Jon later develops physical Targ features, Robert can't begrudge Ned for fraternizing w a Targ loyal house since Ned killed Author Dayne, Ashara is dead & can't contradict the claim, it makes plenty of sense for Ned to embrace the story. What am I missing?

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Anyone have any thoughts as to why Ned didn't nurture & acknowledge the Ashara Dayne rumor? It seems a good cover story.

Jon's age dictates that he had to have been conceived after Ned was married. Fine. "Yeah, Cat, I met up w Ashara while I was fighting in the south. Old flames were rekindled, etc".

It's a ready made explanation in case Jon later develops physical Targ features, Robert can't begrudge Ned for fraternizing w a Targ loyal house since Ned killed Author Dayne, Ashara is dead & can't contradict the claim, it makes plenty of sense for Ned to embrace the story. What am I missing?

Well you could say when he stopped the servants of Winterfell talking about Ashara Dayne that made people believe Ashara was Jon's as he didn't want people talking about Jon's mother in Winterfell. He doesn't say she is or she isn't Jon's mother, but because he stopped people talking about her, that only fuelled people's belief she is Jon's mother.

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The raven also called him king, along with calling him by his full name Jon Snow, which is odd to Jon seeing as though the raven had never called Jon by his full name before that moment. I guess it's definitely simply just one huge coincidence that this happens immediately after the raven wakes him up from having a dream about him fighting the others, wielding a flaming sword, covered in black ice armor?

Oh dear, you need to relax.

First of all, it was a joke!

Second, even if you assume that Jon will become a king, there are still other forms of king that Jon might become, quite aside from King of Westeros and King in the North.

Third, the dream is not about being king at all; it's about defending the Wall. The case that Jon will continue to defend the Wall does indeed appear very strong.

Fourth, R+L=J is an intrinsically problematic theory that doesn't need attacks; it needs defense.

I am still waiting for someone -- anyone -- to prove the statement made by J. Stargaryen that "We know Rhaegar and Lyanna spent several months together."

I read what Ygrain wrote; it was full of emotional remarks like "Brandon got mad," which prove nothing except that Brandon got mad.

Really, folks. Even if you grant every one of her points, you are still no closer to proving the assertion that Rhaegar and Lyanna spent several months together. It's just a common fallacy of this thread, like so many others -- oft-repeated, oft-believed, and never demonstrated.

Another recent one is that D&D from HBO "correctly figured out" Jon's parents from book one. Here's the truth: GRRM asked them who Jon Snow's mother was, and they gave an answer they considered shocking, and he smiled. Mother. Not parents.

Personally, I interpret this to mean Lyanna Stark is Jon's mother. But hasn't it crossed your mind to wonder why GRRM would ask about the mother, but not the parents?

There is a vast, open logical territory between Lyanna being Jon's mother and Rhaegar being Jon's only possible, proven, it's-a-fact father. The total lack of information we have on Lyanna between her abduction and her reappearance makes any such proof an impossible matter, as well as any proof that "we know" Rhaegar and Lyanna spent several months together.

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Anyone have any thoughts as to why Ned didn't nurture & acknowledge the Ashara Dayne rumor? It seems a good cover story.

Jon's age dictates that he had to have been conceived after Ned was married. Fine. "Yeah, Cat, I met up w Ashara while I was fighting in the south. Old flames were rekindled, etc".

It's a ready made explanation in case Jon later develops physical Targ features, Robert can't begrudge Ned for fraternizing w a Targ loyal house since Ned killed Author Dayne, Ashara is dead & can't contradict the claim, it makes plenty of sense for Ned to embrace the story. What am I missing?

Firstly, it does not fit Ned's character, the honorable and honest man that he is avoids lying whenever possible. And the mother being a highborn Lady (as opposed to a commoner) would give Catelyn reason to be jealous (all the rumour about Ashara's beauty) and to fear for her children's place in succession, as a bastard who is completely highborn is maybe more likely legitimized, so from this aspect, it would be salt in Cat's wound.

If anything, inventing a lowborn affair would attract far less attention, hence he gives Wylla's name to Robert when he asks, but for the reason why he does not do so publicly, we're back with Ned's character. Add to that the unknown promise(s), and the fact that the extent of the Dayne's involvement is unclear and they might be offended if he made the supposed dishonour of Ashara by him public, and there you are ;)

eta: and of course I forgot the most apparent reason, the scenario does not survive scrutiny, Eddard and Ashara would have to meet during the war when they were on opposite sides, so passing off Ashara as Jon's mother would be doubted universally and attract unwanted attention, as one could easily figure out the flaws of said scenario. And even the rumour going around at Winterfell does not even involve Jon being her son.

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The example of the raven calling Jon king in ADWD comes literally right after Jon has the dream where he's fighting the Others, here's the whole passage:

That night he dreamt of wildlings howling from the woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums. Boom DOOM boom DOOM

boom DOOM came the sound, a thousand hearts with a single beat. Some had spears and some had bows and some had axes. Others rode on chariots made of bones, drawn by teams of dogs as big as ponies. Giants lumbered amongst them, forty feet tall, with mauls the size of oak trees.

"Stand fast," Jon Snow called. "Throw them back." He stood atop the Wall, alone. "Flame," he cried, "feed them flame," but there was no one to pay heed.

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. "Snow, " an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist. As the dead men reached the top of the Wall he sent them down to die again. He slew a greybeard and a beardless boy, a giant, a gaunt man with filed teeth, a girl with thick red hair. Too late he recognized Ygritte. She was gone as quick as she'd appeared. The world dissolved into a red mist. Jon stabbed and slashed and cut. He hacked down Donal Noye and gutted Deaf Dick Follard. Qhorin Halfhand stumbled to his knees, trying in vain to staunch the flow of blood from his neck. "I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off. Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly by the shoulder. He whirled …

… and woke with a raven pecking at his chest. "Snow, " the bird cried. Jon swatted at it. The raven shrieked its displeasure and flapped up to a bedpost to glare down balefully at him through the predawn gloom. The day had come. It was the hour of the wolf. Soon enough the sun would rise, and four thousand wildlings would come pouring through the Wall. Madness. Jon Snow ran his burned hand through his hair and wondered once again what he was doing. Once the gate was opened there would be no turning back. It should have been the Old Bear to treat with Tormund. It should have been Jaremy Rykker or Qhorin Halfhand or Denys Mallister or some other seasoned man. It should have been my uncle. It was too late for such misgivings, though. Every choice had its risks, every choice its consequences. He would play the game to its conclusion. He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont's raven muttered across the room. "Corn, " the bird said, and, "King, " and, "Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow. " That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.

So you see the fact that the Raven does it again in ADWD is what leads ppl to believe the Raven was actually the one looking at Jon in ACOK. Also, the fact that the Raven out of all possible times chooses to do this in ADWD literally right after Jon has the AA/nightmarish sort of dream, in fact the raven actually seems to purposely wake Jon up from the nightmarish dream and then later calls Jon by his full time for the first time ever, is what leads many to suspect the Raven knew what Jon was dreaming about, because the Raven is actually Bloodraven, who as we already know, can see other ppl's dreams.

Yes, thank you. That is the passage I was thinking about. It's this bit here that makes me think it's about him becoming King in the North (a/k/a Lord of Winterfell, which, per AGOT, was an interchangeable title pre- Aegon's Conquest):

"I am the Lord of Winterfell," Jon screamed. It was Robb before him now, his hair wet with melting snow. Longclaw took his head off.

So you have Robb's death tied with Jon becoming Lord of Winterfell.

That point is open to interpretation.

I don't, however, think the ACOK passage can fairly be read as having the raven staring at Jon while saying "king." Here's why:

"King," croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the solar to land on Mormont's shoulder. "King," IT said.

So the raven is "it."

Here's a description of Mormont, from the same chapter, speaking to Sam:

"If you have something to say, say it. Otherwise, beware of weasels." He waved a brusque dismissal.

So Mormont is "he."

Here's the key part, after the raven says "king" and Mormont and Jon exchange more words:

"Mormont stroked the raven under the beak with a finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow."

I think it is pretty obvious from the structure of that sentence that "his" refers to Mormont and not the raven. But the use of the pronoun puts this beyond dispute. Mormont's eyes are "his eyes." If it was talking about the raven's eyes, it would say "its eyes."

So the raven says "king", but there is nothing to indicate that it is looking at Jon when it says it.

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Another recent one is that D&D from HBO "correctly figured out" Jon's parents from book one. Here's the truth: GRRM asked them who Jon Snow's mother was, and they gave an answer they considered shocking, and he smiled. Mother. Not parents.

Personally, I interpret this to mean Lyanna Stark is Jon's mother. But hasn't it crossed your mind to wonder why GRRM would ask about the mother, but not the parents?

I'm afraid the 'facts' are bit more controversial:

The first was winning over Mr. Martin in a lunchtime meeting that was mostly collegial, but where Mr. Weiss and Mr. Benioff were quizzed about the parents of Jon Snow, a “Game of Thrones” character of mysterious lineage. (“We had a whole conversation about it,” Mr. Benioff said, “and George was pleased that we got the answer right.”)

Source

ETA Interesting little slip

too, round 1:30, courtesy of Kit Harington:

He's got this mystery about him. He doesn't know who his parents are, where is mother is.

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