R+L=J v 59

[Ygrain]

I am still waiting for someone -- anyone -- to prove the statement made by J. Stargaryen that "We know Rhaegar and Lyanna spent several months together."

I read what Ygrain wrote; it was full of emotional remarks like "Brandon got mad," which prove nothing except that Brandon got mad.

Really, folks. Even if you grant every one of her points, you are still no closer to proving the assertion that Rhaegar and Lyanna spent several months together. It's just a common fallacy of this thread, like so many others -- oft-repeated, oft-believed, and never demonstrated.

It proves, as time and again, your imperfect grasp of the text. Brandon got mad after learned about Lyanna on his way to Riverrun, and whatever he learned, he blamed Rhaegar. Those two events are connected and Brandon considered it such an offence that he demanded the death of the Crown Prince. Apparently, he didn't think that Rhaegar was only singing to Lyanna in the moonlight. Whether he thought it an abduction or eloping, it has dishonour aka sex all over.

Another recent one is that D&D from HBO "correctly figured out" Jon's parents from book one. Here's the truth: GRRM asked them who Jon Snow's mother was, and they gave an answer they considered shocking, and he smiled. Mother. Not parents.

Personally, I interpret this to mean Lyanna Stark is Jon's mother. But hasn't it crossed your mind to wonder why GRRM would ask about the mother, but not the parents?

Because it was a test and if they hadn't figured out R+L, asking about parents would give them a clue.

There is a vast, open logical territory between Lyanna being Jon's mother and Rhaegar being Jon's only possible, proven, it's-a-fact father. The total lack of information we have on Lyanna between her abduction and her reappearance makes any such proof an impossible matter, as well as any proof that "we know" Rhaegar and Lyanna spent several months together.

x+3=10, what is the value of x?

In a RL situation, your objection would be valid. This is a book, though, and the information is there for a reason.

[REVENGE OF THE NORTH]

I've been reading up a lot on this and i really want it to be true, however i did notice something while looking at various interviews with GRRM, Benioff and Weiss

Alright, this is a very, very tiny detail that I noticed but here it goes

When GRRM talked to them about starting the show he asked them one test question to see how well they actually read the books. He asked them who Jon's mother was. Both Benioff and Weiss seemed to get the answer correct and they have mentioned the question that they were asked many times in interviews when people asked why do you think George picked you over other proposals.

Here is my idea, every time both Benioff and Weiss always say we guessed Jon Snows mother's name. Even the question was only about the mother. It would seem to me if the answer was about both parents either Benioff or Weiss would have messed up at least once in the hundreds of interviews that they have had and say that they guessed who the PARENTS were instead of just mother.

Again, this is a very tiny detail just thought was interesting, i do believe in R+L=J though.

[FrozenFire3]

I've been reading up a lot on this and i really want it to be true, however i did notice something while looking at various interviews with GRRM, Benioff and Weiss

Alright, this is a very, very tiny detail that I noticed but here it goes

When GRRM talked to them about starting the show he asked them one test question to see how well they actually read the books. He asked them who Jon's mother was. Both Benioff and Weiss seemed to get the answer correct and they have mentioned the question that they were asked many times in interviews when people asked why do you think George picked you over other proposals.

Here is my idea, every time both Benioff and Weiss always say we guessed Jon Snows mother's name. Even the question was only about the mother. It would seem to me if the answer was about both parents either Benioff or Weiss would have messed up at least once in the hundreds of interviews that they have had and say that they guessed who the PARENTS were instead of just mother.

Again, this is a very tiny detail just thought was interesting, i do believe in R+L=J though.

Have a look here, just two posts back.

And read also Ygrain's brilliant explanation just above your post:

Because it was a test and if they hadn't figured out R+L, asking about parents would give them a clue.

[Jon Icefyre]

I've been reading up a lot on this and i really want it to be true, however i did notice something while looking at various interviews with GRRM, Benioff and Weiss

Alright, this is a very, very tiny detail that I noticed but here it goes

When GRRM talked to them about starting the show he asked them one test question to see how well they actually read the books. He asked them who Jon's mother was. Both Benioff and Weiss seemed to get the answer correct and they have mentioned the question that they were asked many times in interviews when people asked why do you think George picked you over other proposals.

Here is my idea, every time both Benioff and Weiss always say we guessed Jon Snows mother's name. Even the question was only about the mother. It would seem to me if the answer was about both parents either Benioff or Weiss would have messed up at least once in the hundreds of interviews that they have had and say that they guessed who the PARENTS were instead of just mother.

Again, this is a very tiny detail just thought was interesting, i do believe in R+L=J though.

Lyanna was stuck in a tower for the better part of a year, in contact with pretty much no one that we know of other than the three KG guarding her and Rhaegar. So if someone where to say Lyanna was Jon's mother I think it would be more than clear to the vast majority of fans and to the actual characters in the series that Rhaegar is probable the father. Also this was a 'test' from GRRM so of course he's gonna say who is Jon's 'mother' instead of 'parents' for the simple fact that as far as the books go so far, Ned Stark is 'believed' to be Jon's father. So if he's testing D&D he's not going to make it easy for them by giving away a huge plot point with saying 'parents' instead of 'mother'.....

ETA= :ninja: by Ygrain lol

[Ghost's Shadow]

Why do people always end up creating accounts (or using their first post) to say the exact same thing time and time again? :lol:

[REVENGE OF THE NORTH]

Oh wow i didnt even see it was already brought up, thanks

[FrozenFire3]

Why do people always end up creating accounts (or using their first post) to say the exact same thing time and time again? :lol:

Game of Trolls??? :lol:

[FrozenFire3]

Oh wow i didnt even see it was already brought up, thanks

No problem and welcome to the forums.

[REVENGE OF THE NORTH]

Wow the posts are so quick i cant even keep up with them

And this really is my first post.

[sword of the lunchtime]

I believe that R+L=J is too obvious for GRRM, and that Ned really is Jon's father. The mother i am not too sure about but i think it could be ashara. My theory is that lyanna misscarried and that is why she was lying in a pool of blood, and rheagar had kidnapped her to protect her from aerys who was attempting to end the stark line. Lyanna knowing this asked ned to make sure the stark line carried on so made him promise to keep the stark family going as the only other one left alive was benjen who was on the wall so couldnt have children. I believe that ned then intended to keep his promise so produced jon not knowing that soon he would have a legitimate child in robb, but knowing that jon was made from his promise to lyanna, ned took jon back to winterfell to raise him

[Jon Icefyre]

I believe that R+L=J is too obvious for GRRM, and that Ned really is Jon's father. The mother i am not too sure about but i think it could be ashara. My theory is that lyanna misscarried and that is why she was lying in a pool of blood, and rheagar had kidnapped her to protect her from aerys who was attempting to end the stark line. Lyanna knowing this asked ned to make sure the stark line carried on so made him promise to keep the stark family going as the only other one left alive was benjen who was on the wall so couldnt have children. I believe that ned then intended to keep his promise so produced jon not knowing that soon he would have a legitimate child in robb, but knowing that jon was made from his promise to lyanna, ned took jon back to winterfell to raise him

Ya then tell me why Ned thinks there's great 'danger' in keeping the secretes he has for 14 years? What danger could there possibly be in revealing anything you just said?

"Some secrets are safer kept hidden. Some secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust." - Ned Stark GOT

[Ghost's Shadow]

Wow the posts are so quick i cant even keep up with them

And this really is my first post.

Welcome to the forum. :D

[sword of the lunchtime]

That jon is really part dayne, and that arthur is still alive and watching over his nephew somehow

[Jory Cassel]

How and when did Ashara and Ned meet, then, approximately 9 month before the sack, when they were on opposing sides of the war?

[Jon Icefyre]

That jon is really part dayne, and that arthur is still alive and watching over his nephew somehow

How is that dangerous at all? What possible harm could come from Jon knowing his mother was Ashara Dayne? Being a Dayne isn't exactly the same as being a Targ, the Daynes have no claim to the throne whatsoever so why would Robert or anyone for that matter give two cents about Jon being a Dayne?

[sword of the lunchtime]

I cant guess on specifics but that is my general theory

[FrozenFire3]

I believe that R+L=J is too obvious for GRRM, and that Ned really is Jon's father. The mother i am not too sure about but i think it could be ashara. My theory is that lyanna misscarried and that is why she was lying in a pool of blood, and rheagar had kidnapped her to protect her from aerys who was attempting to end the stark line. Lyanna knowing this asked ned to make sure the stark line carried on so made him promise to keep the stark family going as the only other one left alive was benjen who was on the wall so couldnt have children. I believe that ned then intended to keep his promise so produced jon not knowing that soon he would have a legitimate child in robb, but knowing that jon was made from his promise to lyanna, ned took jon back to winterfell to raise him

Jon and Robb are of the same age.

As for too obvious, GRRM's words:

I am aware of the principal Internet forums about A Song of Ice and Fire and I really used to look at the American and English groups. Nowadays, the most important site is Westeros, but I started to feel uncomfortable and I thought it would be a better idea not to get to these sides. The fans use to come up with theories; lots of them are just speculative but some of them are in the right way. Before the Internet, one reader could guess the ending you wanna do for your novel, but the other 10.000 wouldn’t know anything and they would be surprised. However, now, those 10.000 people use the Internet and read the right theories. They say: “Oh God, the butler did it!”, to use an example of a mystery novel. Then, you think: “I have to change the ending! The maiden would be the criminal!” To my mind that way is a disaster because if you are doing well you work, the books are full of clues that point to the butler doing it and help you to figure up the butler did it, but if you change the ending to point the maiden, the clues make no sense anymore; they are wrong or are lies, and I am not a liar.I am aware of the principal Internet forums about A Song of Ice and Fire and I really used to look at the American and English groups. Nowadays, the most important site is Westeros, but I started to feel uncomfortable and I thought it would be a better idea not to get to these sides. The fans use to come up with theories; lots of them are just speculative but some of them are in the right way. Before the Internet, one reader could guess the ending you wanna do for your novel, but the other 10.000 wouldn’t know anything and they would be surprised. However, now, those 10.000 people use the Internet and read the right theories. They say: “Oh God, the butler did it!”, to use an example of a mystery novel. Then, you think: “I have to change the ending! The maiden would be the criminal!” To my mind that way is a disaster because if you are doing well you work, the books are full of clues that point to the butler doing it and help you to figure up the butler did it, but if you change the ending to point the maiden, the clues make no sense anymore; they are wrong or are lies, and I am not a liar.

That jon is really part dayne, and that arthur is still alive and watching over his nephew somehow

And why then denying Jon the truth? Why making him suffer so much for ignoring the identity of his mother?

ETA :ninja: 'd but anyway we can't guess on specifics :rolleyes:

[MtnLion]

That jon is really part dayne, and that arthur is still alive and watching over his nephew somehow

Arthur is dead, his body is in a cairn at the tower's location. Just follow the bouncing blue rose through the story. Rhaegar set it is Lyanna's lap, as an honor. They blew through the air at the tower, and fell from Lyanna's hand as she died. There it is, once again, growing from a chink in a wall of ice. That is how a good story is written, it includes symbols that clearly demonstrate what is happening.

[sword of the lunchtime]

I dont know why, but i believe that R+L=J is not true and is not a big enough supprise and ned would have told jon before he went to the wall if he was not his actual father

[MtnLion]

Look the evidence for L+R=J is strong

However Ned says he dishonours Catelyn in the yes of GODS and MAN.

OK so the Man part is easy - he tells her Jon is his bastard and keeps him

But the Gods part - not so clear. Ned's actions are in no way dishonorable for the GODS who know the truth of his actions. Also there is a part when he thinks on the baby Barra and wonders why if bastards are so bad why do the Gods fill men with lusts.

<snip>

In Ned's oath to Robert did he invoke the gods? I certainly think so, and committing treason by hiding a true-born Jon Targaryen under the king's nose would certainly be an offense to the oath he swore to Robert in the eyes of gods and man.