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R+L=J v 59


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The Blackfish just said that Cat never trusted Jon or Theon. Also, I think it was in this thread that someone remarked about Jon having a few "waking the dragon" moments. To that I would respond that Ned had a moment where he snapped and almost strangled Littlefinger, similar to how Jon almost throttled Alliser Thorne.

geez, show=/=book. Ned puts a dagger at Littlefinger's throat.

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About Maester Aemon and seeing Jon Snow: has it ever been said that Aemon met Rhaegar? They wrote each other, but the Maester had been on the Wall for so long and Rhaegar died young. If it's indeed true Aemon had been made blind as to not being able to see Jon, it might just be general Targ traits and not specifically Rhaegar ones? Unless Aemon had an inkling of things, he wouldn't be comparing personalities yet. (Not that the difference between the things is that important. ;))

When I read GoT, I had the impression that they were well acquainted, seeing as it was quite obvious that Rhaegar had shared the PtwP prophecy with him, with both believing it was first Rhaegar, then Aegon but now that I think of it, it isn't clear whether or not they have met, however I can't think why not. For one, as far as I can see, he doesn't explicitly state that they haven't met and we have instances when Benjen goes to Winterfell to see the Starks when Robert lands North, and Sam is sent to the old Citadel so I do think that it is plausible that they could have met at some point. As GRRM has a reason for virtually everything in the series, it may be curious why Aemon is blind.

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The Blackfish just said that Cat never trusted Jon or Theon. Also, I think it was in this thread that someone remarked about Jon having a few "waking the dragon" moments. To that I would respond that Ned had a moment where he snapped and almost strangled Littlefinger, similar to how Jon almost throttled Alliser Thorne.

Sorry, the 'false is all you ever were' quote is the hooded man to Theon in ADWD.

The blackfish quote was:-

'The Blackfish narrowed his eyes "Did your father arrange that as well? Catelyn never trusted the boy, as I recall, no more than she ever trusted Theon Greyjoy. It would seem that she was right about them both"'

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The Blackfish just said that Cat never trusted Jon or Theon. Also, I think it was in this thread that someone remarked about Jon having a few "waking the dragon" moments. To that I would respond that Ned had a moment where he snapped and almost strangled Littlefinger, similar to how Jon almost throttled Alliser Thorne.

Ya but the difference is there was nothing out of the ordinary with Ned's actions. Most high lords in Westeros regardless of how calm their demeanor usually is, would most likely snap on the man that's suggesting their wife and mother of their children who is suppose to half a world away, is actually laying low in one this man's whore houses. Especially considering Ned's awareness of Littlefingers desires towards Cat. Jon has had some "waking the dragon" moments where he snapped in a way most ppl never would. For instance when he's training and he has the Robb calling him a bastard flashback, so he then goes absolutely ape shit on the poor comrade he's training with, to the point where ppl actually had to pull Jon off of him, even though the one he was training with didn't really do anything to provoke this overly aggressive, and down right angry reaction from Jon.

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Ya but the difference is there was nothing out of the ordinary with Ned's actions. Most high lords in Westeros regardless of how calm their demeanor usually is, would most likely snap on the man that's suggesting their wife and mother of their children who is suppose to half a world away, is actually laying low in a whore house. Especially considering Ned's awareness of Littlefingers desires towards Cat. Jon has had some "waking the dragon" moments where he snapped in a way most ppl never would. For instance when he's training and he has the Robb calling him a bastard flashback, so he then goes absolutely ape shit on the poor comrade he's training with, to the point where ppl actually had to pull Jon off of him, even thought the one he was training with didn't really do anything to provoke this overly aggressive, and down right angry reaction from Jon.

^this.

also, Jon's moments displayed almost inhumane strength, he lifted a grown man at the throat and beat down a far more experienced fighter who defeated him plenty of times in advance, Ned simply draws a dagger on an unarmed man.

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Ya but the difference is there was nothing out of the ordinary with Ned's actions. Most high lords in Westeros regardless of how calm their demeanor usually is, would most likely snap on the man that's suggesting their wife and mother of their children who is suppose to half a world away, is actually laying low in one this man's whore houses. Especially considering Ned's awareness of Littlefingers desires towards Cat. Jon has had some "waking the dragon" moments where he snapped in a way most ppl never would. For instance when he's training and he has the Robb calling him a bastard flashback, so he then goes absolutely ape shit on the poor comrade he's training with, to the point where ppl actually had to pull Jon off of him, even thought the one he was training with didn't really do anything to provoke this overly aggressive, and down right angry reaction from Jon.

Brandon's mirths were as wild as his rages and Jon had been bottling up that anger for a long time. He snaps in ways that are similar to Robb's anger. For example, when he puts Bowen in his place before making plans for the Hardhome ranging, which is similar to Robb's cold raction when Cat suggests that Jon would murder his children to get Winterfell

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^this.

also, Jon's moments displayed almost inhumane strength, he lifted a grown man at the throat and beat down a far more experienced fighter who defeated him plenty of times in advance, Ned simply draws a dagger on an unarmed man.

All Viserys ever did when angry was hurt Dany. Jon has Stark blood so this could be wolf blood taking over.

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Brandon's mirths were as wild as his rages and Jon had been bottling up that anger for a long time. He snaps in ways that are similar to Robb's anger. For exampl, when he puts Bowen in his place on top of the Wall, which is similar to Robb's cold raction when Cat suggests that Jon would murder his children to get Winterfell

Robb doesn't have the same sort of anger moments as Jon for the most part. Also what you don't seem to realize is that the difference between having wolf's blood like Brandon had and having a waking the dragon moment. Is that one is a general demeanor, and the other is a spur of the moment emotional reaction that doesn't necessarily reflect someone's general mood. Arya, Brandon, and Lyanna are all described as having wolf's blood in a way that strongly suggests that this is their general demeanor, and in Arya's case we know that's true lol. Jon OTOH has more of a melancholic general demeanor, therefore when he has those random spurs of anger that are considered to be exceptions to his overall general behavior, it's much more likely that they are, "waking the dragon" moments instead of him just simply being wolf-blooded.

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This idea has probably been batted around before so if anyone can fill me in. It's not even an idea really more like dots on a board.

Duncan the Small the sometimes crown Prince to Egg.

Jenny of Oldstones married Duncan against his fathers wishes. Political fallout seemed to be a problem.

Jenny referred to by Robb as Jenny with flowers in her hair

Oldestones an ancient castle ruin in the Riverlands, the place where Robb talked about making Jon his Heir.

Summerhall where Jenny and Duncan died in a tragedy. Presumably at least.

Summerhall possible dragon egg and an attempt to wake them

Wood Witch Jenny's friend prophesied the return of the one who would wake the Dragons made the match of Rhaegars parents.

The Ghost of High Heart more than likely the wood witch as she talks about her Jenny and Summerhall.

Jenny has a song which is suppose to be tragic and sad.

Rhaegar Targaryen Crown Prince To Aerys Targaryen

Lyanna Stark her and Rhaegar said by many to be a love story, but would clearly have political backlash I doudt Rhaegars dad was pro this.

Lyanna famed for good or for bad for her crown of blue roses, flowers in her hair.

Harrenhall an castle ruin in the river lands

Rhaegar had an ossesion with Summerhall went there multiple times by himself.

Rhaegar believes he is the prince that was promised from the prophecy the prophecy about waking the dragons from stone something Duncan the small, Jenny and the others may have attempted.

Rhaegar was known to sing sad songs

At Harrenhall Rhaegar sang a very sad song that made Lyanna cry, could it have been Jenny's song?

Rhaegar and Lyanna both die

There seem to be some very similar elements and themes to these two stories and they seem to be connected at a few points. History repeating itself, Martin dropping clues, me grasping at straws? Robb, Cat and Jon connected to Oldstones, the Ghost of High Heart connected to Arya right around the time Jons parents are discussed, the Riverlands, ruined castles, summerhall, waking the dragons. It seems 3 generations are connected to Jenny and Duncans story. Rheagar and Lyanna seem to have a large connection mostly Rhaegar though. Is it just me or are the two stories similar in a lot of ways? Obviously not perfect in all aspects but... like the opposite side of the same coin I guess.

Rumors of betrayel at Summerhall, something really odd missing from the Rhaegar and Lyanna story. Cause I think most agree that something isn't right with the just going missing for almsot a year, Brandons freak out etc...

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Or maybe Viserys wasn't a true dragon.

No Viserys was a dragon, he was just messed up from a really messed up life, like a lot of the characters. Jon has his issues, Dany hers, and they are products of their life experiences just like most of us. Ned had issues, Cat, Tyrion, look no further than Arya if you want to see how experiences change the characters.

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This idea has probably been batted around before so if anyone can fill me in. It's not even an idea really more like dots on a board.

Duncan the Small the sometimes crown Prince to Egg.

Jenny of Oldstones married Duncan against his fathers wishes. Political fallout seemed to be a problem.

Jenny referred to by Robb as Jenny with flowers in her hair

Oldestones an ancient castle ruin in the Riverlands, the place where Robb talked about making Jon his Heir.

Summerhall where Jenny and Duncan died in a tragedy. Presumably at least.

Summerhall possible dragon egg and an attempt to wake them

Wood Witch Jenny's friend prophesied the return of the one who would wake the Dragons made the match of Rhaegars parents.

The Ghost of High Heart more than likely the wood witch as she talks about her Jenny and Summerhall.

Jenny has a song which is suppose to be tragic and sad.

Rhaegar Targaryen Crown Prince To Aerys Targaryen

Lyanna Stark her and Rhaegar said by many to be a love story, but would clearly have political backlash I doudt Rhaegars dad was pro this.

Lyanna famed for good or for bad for her crown of blue roses, flowers in her hair.

Harrenhall an castle ruin in the river lands

Rhaegar had an ossesion with Summerhall went there multiple times by himself.

Rhaegar believes he is the prince that was promised from the prophecy the prophecy about waking the dragons from stone something Duncan the small, Jenny and the others may have attempted.

Rhaegar was known to sing sad songs

At Harrenhall Rhaegar sang a very sad song that made Lyanna cry, could it have been Jenny's song?

Rhaegar and Lyanna both die

There seem to be some very similar elements and themes to these two stories and they seem to be connected at a few points. History repeating itself, Martin dropping clues, me grasping at straws? Robb, Cat and Jon connected to Oldstones, the Ghost of High Heart connected to Arya right around the time Jons parents are discussed, the Riverlands, ruined castles, summerhall, waking the dragons. It seems 3 generations are connected to Jenny and Duncans story. Rheagar and Lyanna seem to have a large connection mostly Rhaegar though. Is it just me or are the two stories similar in a lot of ways? Obviously not perfect in all aspects but... like the opposite side of the same coin I guess.

Rumors of betrayel at Summerhall, something really odd missing from the Rhaegar and Lyanna story. Cause I think most agree that something isn't right with the just going missing for almsot a year, Brandons freak out etc...

No, you're right, the similarity has been brought up before. I'm more than curious to find out what happened at Summerhall and who and how was involved, it might have given us quite a couple of clues about R+L.

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Has Dany ever tried to beat anyone senseless? Another brilliant argument from you.

I'm saying there's a difference between Dany's anger and Jon's. Just because he displayed remarkable strength doesn't necessarily mean it was a waking the dragon moment. It was a different situation than anything we've seen from Dany or Viserys. Prove me wrong before implying that every point I've made is stupid. Once you've done that go right ahead.

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I'm saying there's a difference between Dany's anger and Jon's. Just because he displayed remarkable strength doesn't necessarily mean it was a waking the dragon moment. It was a different situation than anything we've seen from Dany or Viserys. Prove me wrong before implying that every point I've made is stupid. Once you've done that go right ahead.

You can say X doesn't necessarily mean Y to almost any example. But what have you accomplished? Nothing. It's a statement without any value.

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You can say X doesn't necessarily mean Y to almost any example. But what have you accomplished? Nothing. It's a statement without any value.

It's a unique situation that doesn't point to him being a Targ. There is no evidence to say Jon's actions are the result of dragon blood because no Targ has ever done anything like this.

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The Dayne's have features similar to the Targs. Ser Barristan remarks how Dany looks like Ashara's daughter

I think you've lost sight of the fact that we were discussing family resemblances that are beyond the superficial (ie hair and eye color) things like mannerisms, eye shape, expressions...

Ashara Dayne having violet eyes does not make her a Targ and she could not therefore pass on those type of family traits.

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Robb doesn't have the same sort of anger moments as Jon for the most part. Also what you don't seem to realize is that the difference between having wolf's blood like Brandon had and having a waking the dragon moment. Is that one is a general demeanor, and the other is a spur of the moment emotional reaction that doesn't necessarily reflect someone's general mood. Arya, Brandon, and Lyanna are all described as having wolf's blood in a way that strongly suggests that this is their general demeanor, and in Arya's case we know that's true lol. Jon OTOH has more of a melancholic general demeanor, therefore when he has those random spurs of anger that are considered to be exceptions to his overall general behavior, it's much more likely that they are, "waking the dragon" moments instead of him just simply being wolf-blooded.

:agree:

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