R+L=J v 59

[J. Stargaryen]

It's a unique situation that doesn't point to him being a Targ. There is no evidence to say Jon's actions are the result of dragon blood because no Targ has ever done anything like this.

It doesn't matter if any Targaryen in history has ever really woken the dragon. It's meant to provide a clue that Jon is a Targaryen. Here's how it works:

His anger was a terrible thing when roused. Viserys called it “waking the dragon.”

- AGoT, Daenerys I

GRRM sets up the concept of "waking the dragon." Then, later on in the story, Jon does some pretty remarkable shit when he's angry; i.e., when he "wakes the dragon."

Certainly Alliser Thorne and Iron Emmett would agree that Jon's anger was a terrible thing when roused.

Read this thread.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

This idea has probably been batted around before so if anyone can fill me in. It's not even an idea really more like dots on a board.

Duncan the Small the sometimes crown Prince to Egg.

Jenny of Oldstones married Duncan against his fathers wishes. Political fallout seemed to be a problem.

Jenny referred to by Robb as Jenny with flowers in her hair

Oldestones an ancient castle ruin in the Riverlands, the place where Robb talked about making Jon his Heir.

Summerhall where Jenny and Duncan died in a tragedy. Presumably at least.

Summerhall possible dragon egg and an attempt to wake them

Wood Witch Jenny's friend prophesied the return of the one who would wake the Dragons made the match of Rhaegars parents.

The Ghost of High Heart more than likely the wood witch as she talks about her Jenny and Summerhall.

Jenny has a song which is suppose to be tragic and sad.

Rhaegar Targaryen Crown Prince To Aerys Targaryen

Lyanna Stark her and Rhaegar said by many to be a love story, but would clearly have political backlash I doudt Rhaegars dad was pro this.

Lyanna famed for good or for bad for her crown of blue roses, flowers in her hair.

Harrenhall an castle ruin in the river lands

Rhaegar had an ossesion with Summerhall went there multiple times by himself.

Rhaegar believes he is the prince that was promised from the prophecy the prophecy about waking the dragons from stone something Duncan the small, Jenny and the others may have attempted.

Rhaegar was known to sing sad songs

At Harrenhall Rhaegar sang a very sad song that made Lyanna cry, could it have been Jenny's song?

Rhaegar and Lyanna both die

There seem to be some very similar elements and themes to these two stories and they seem to be connected at a few points. History repeating itself, Martin dropping clues, me grasping at straws? Robb, Cat and Jon connected to Oldstones, the Ghost of High Heart connected to Arya right around the time Jons parents are discussed, the Riverlands, ruined castles, summerhall, waking the dragons. It seems 3 generations are connected to Jenny and Duncans story. Rheagar and Lyanna seem to have a large connection mostly Rhaegar though. Is it just me or are the two stories similar in a lot of ways? Obviously not perfect in all aspects but... like the opposite side of the same coin I guess.

Rumors of betrayel at Summerhall, something really odd missing from the Rhaegar and Lyanna story. Cause I think most agree that something isn't right with the just going missing for almsot a year, Brandons freak out etc...

Very nicely drawn parallels. I agree, there is definitely a connection here, more than one actually, and its very much in GRRM's style to give us this shadow story. Trouble is, both stories have such huge gaps in them. We've done analysis on the tomb at Oldstones here before and there is a lot to be said about that- roses, a warhammer, his very name- Tristifer, related to the Latin word for sad. One other connection-- when Merrett Frey rides into the BwB ambush at Oldstones, Tom o' Sevens is playing Jenny's sad song.

[J. Stargaryen]

Robb doesn't have the same sort of anger moments as Jon for the most part. Also what you don't seem to realize is that the difference between having wolf's blood like Brandon had and having a waking the dragon moment. Is that one is a general demeanor, and the other is a spur of the moment emotional reaction that doesn't necessarily reflect someone's general mood. Arya, Brandon, and Lyanna are all described as having wolf's blood in a way that strongly suggests that this is their general demeanor, and in Arya's case we know that's true lol. Jon OTOH has more of a melancholic general demeanor, therefore when he has those random spurs of anger that are considered to be exceptions to his overall general behavior, it's much more likely that they are, "waking the dragon" moments instead of him just simply being wolf-blooded.

:agree:

Me too. I meant to quote this earlier but got sidetracked watching UFC. It's a really good post breaking down the difference between "wolf's blood" and "waking the dragon."

[Ser Creighton]

Very nicely drawn parallels. I agree, there is definitely a connection here, more than one actually, and its very much in GRRM's style to give us this shadow story. Trouble is, both stories have such huge gaps in them. We've done analysis on the tomb at Oldstones here before and there is a lot to be said about that- roses, a warhammer, his very name- Tristifer, related to the Latin word for sad. One other connection-- when Merrett Frey rides into the BwB ambush at Oldstones, Tom o' Sevens is playing Jenny's sad song.

Oh yeah I forgot about the tomb. That's wierd about Tristifer, wasn't he one of the characters in Legends of the Fall. Nope, nope, nope. Lets see I just don't know the name Tristifer is ringing a bell, where have I heard soomething like that before? And why is Lady Gwynhyfvar reminding me of it? Lets see Gwynhyfvar, Tristifer, Legends of the fall, well that's like two love triangles and a guy named Tristifer. What could a Tristifer have to do with a love triangle???? Now if the guys name was Tristan like in legends of the fall then I would totally think Tristan and Iseult the famed celtic romance from the 12th century the Prose Tristan. But the names are totally different. But IF i was to let it go I am going to go ahead and say that maybe just maybe this might be one of your favorite subject and you probably covered the hell out of it.

So yeah Martin dropped a huge clue bomb with that tomb. I mean Tristan and Iseult. Next thing you know Tristan will have played a harp, not likely though. Or maybe he totally did.

[Twinslayer]

Brandon's mirths were as wild as his rages and Jon had been bottling up that anger for a long time. He snaps in ways that are similar to Robb's anger. For exampl, when he puts Bowen in his place on top of the Wall, which is similar to Robb's cold raction when Cat suggests that Jon would murder his children to get Winterfell

When Arya killed the Tickler ("Is there gold in the village?") and the Hound had to drag her off, with her hands all sticky with blood, that reminded me of Jon's wolf bood moments. It definitely wasn't a waking the dragon moment.

[Dead Wolf]

It doesn't matter if any Targaryen in history has ever really woken the dragon. It's meant to provide a clue that Jon is a Targaryen. Here's how it works:

- AGoT, Daenerys I

GRRM sets up the concept of "waking the dragon." Then, later on in the story, Jon does some pretty remarkable shit when he's angry; i.e., when he "wakes the dragon."

Certainly Alliser Thorne and Iron Emmett would agree that Jon's anger was a terrible thing when roused.

Read this thread.

Beating Dany isn't all that remarkable. It's cruel, but not remarkable.

[Dead Wolf]

When Arya killed the Tickler ("Is there gold in the village?") and the Hound had to drag her off, with her hands all sticky with blood, that reminded me of Jon's wolf bood moments. It definitely wasn't a waking the dragon moment.

This

[Dead Wolf]

It doesn't matter if any Targaryen in history has ever really woken the dragon. It's meant to provide a clue that Jon is a Targaryen. Here's how it works:

- AGoT, Daenerys I

GRRM sets up the concept of "waking the dragon." Then, later on in the story, Jon does some pretty remarkable shit when he's angry; i.e., when he "wakes the dragon."

Certainly Alliser Thorne and Iron Emmett would agree that Jon's anger was a terrible thing when roused.

Read this thread.

Jon was fed up with Alliser's shit and the lies about Ned. Janos Slynt's arrogance is enough to make anyone angry. Jaime lost his shit with Red Ronnet and smacked him across the face with a golden hand, because he didn't like the way Connington was talking about Brienne. Alliser had said that Ben Stark was a traitor and Slynt was judging him for being an oathbreaker

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Beating Dany isn't all that remarkable. It's cruel, but not remarkable.

I think the idea might be that Viserys was never really a "dragon" in the "proper" sense (not because he was flammable, but rather, he didn't have the strength of character, personality, whatever), and as such his "waking the dragon" moments, despite his claims, were actually pretty weak and pathetic. Jon is, however, an "actual dragon," and as such displays actual "waking the dragon" moments — throttling Emmett, single-handedly lifting Thorne by his throat, wrenching the spear out of the ice. I believe we're meant to recognize Viserys's "waking the dragon" claims in Jon.

[Alia of the knife]

Very nicely drawn parallels. I agree, there is definitely a connection here, more than one actually, and its very much in GRRM's style to give us this shadow story. Trouble is, both stories have such huge gaps in them. We've done analysis on the tomb at Oldstones here before and there is a lot to be said about that- roses, a warhammer, his very name- Tristifer, related to the Latin word for sad. One other connection-- when Merrett Frey rides into the BwB ambush at Oldstones, Tom o' Sevens is playing Jenny's sad song.

:agree:

[Dead Wolf]

I think the idea might be that Viserys was never really a "dragon" in the "proper" sense (not because he was flammable, but rather, he didn't have the strength of character, personality, whatever), and as such his "waking the dragon" moments, despite his claims, were actually pretty weak and pathetic. Jon is, however, an "actual dragon," and as such displays actual "waking the dragon" moments — throttling Emmett, single-handedly lifting Thorne by his throat, wrenching the spear out of the ice. I believe we're meant to recognize Viserys's "waking the dragon" claims in Jon.

As Twinslayer said, The thing with Iron Emmet was similar to Arya stabbing the Tickler in ASOS and could very well be a result of wolf blood, the spear thing is cold rage not unlike Ned's rage after Tywin's "gift" is presented to Robert. Waking the dragon is often followed by a threat of some kind, and lasts a few minutes at least and Jon gets his shit together pretty quickly after finding the spears

[J. Stargaryen]

Beating Dany isn't all that remarkable. It's cruel, but not remarkable.

Reading comprehension failure.

[Alia of the knife]

This

I think there is a difference though.

Arya's behavior and reaction are largely brought on by trauma and the underlying pressure of fearing tickler, whereas Jon's behavior is more of the extreme temper most associated with the Targaryens, (i.e., historically Angivin/Plantaganet temperaments).

“Popular gossip told of the Plantagenet's descent from the daughter of the Devil himself. It was a convenient explanation for their demonic energy, their ferocious ruthlessness, and their sometimes wicked deeds. The violent temper of the Angivins, their vicious reaction to being thwarted or crossed, was almost pathological in its intensity, so there were many who agreed with this assessment.”

[Ser Creighton]

I think the idea might be that Viserys was never really a "dragon" in the "proper" sense (not because he was flammable, but rather, he didn't have the strength of character, personality, whatever), and as such his "waking the dragon" moments, despite his claims, were actually pretty weak and pathetic. Jon is, however, an "actual dragon," and as such displays actual "waking the dragon" moments — throttling Emmett, single-handedly lifting Thorne by his throat, wrenching the spear out of the ice. I believe we're meant to recognize Viserys's "waking the dragon" claims in Jon.

I actually thought those moments were all about Azor Ahai. Dany had a moment with fire, but all in all she runs hot and cold. Martin refers to his own books as fantasy historical fiction, in the blood has been tossed about for centuries. He is evil because of his blood, they come from good stock, the blood knows. The blood being blamed or credited for actions. But Martins characters by and large tend to be productts of their enviroments. So far the most of the Targs we know about were all very different people, same for the Starks. Sure they had certain traits they grew up with but personality wise from what we have been given, they were all unique characters.

i figure Dany had her once in a lifetime magic moment, and Jon will have his, Just like Brans near death woke his powers. You know in this moment in time magic is not limited to Targs, the starks are all Wargs, and Bran is an X-Men. Jojen, hints about Howland, Mel, the Blackflame, etc... That's just what is going on. I guess Rhaegar wasn't a dragon cause Robert beat him.

[Jon Icefyre]

Me too. I meant to quote this earlier but got sidetracked watching UFC. It's a really good post breaking down the difference between "wolf's blood" and "waking the dragon."

Thanks man, and btw may I ask what UFC action in specific you were watching, I happen to be a fan lol :box:

When Arya killed the Tickler ("Is there gold in the village?") and the Hound had to drag her off, with her hands all sticky with blood, that reminded me of Jon's wolf bood moments. It definitely wasn't a waking the dragon moment.

Yes no one denies Arya's wolf blood which the text also strongly suggests is her general demeanor by her overall behavior in thoughts and actions throughout the series, but the difference is Jon's demeanor does not suggest the same, and no matter how you try to spin it, you can't escape that simple fact....

[Twinslayer]

I think there is a difference though.

Arya's behavior and reaction are largely brought on by trauma and the underlying pressure of fearing tickler, whereas Jon's behavior is more of the extreme temper most associated with the Targaryens, (i.e., historically Angivin/Plantaganet temperaments).

“Popular gossip told of the Plantagenet's descent from the daughter of the Devil himself. It was a convenient explanation for their demonic energy, their ferocious ruthlessness, and their sometimes wicked deeds. The violent temper of the Angivins, their vicious reaction to being thwarted or crossed, was almost pathological in its intensity, so there were many who agreed with this assessment.”

I think Arya started showing these signs before Ned died, like when she threw the Crown Prince's sword in the river in AGOT.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

As Twinslayer said, The thing with Iron Emmet was similar to Arya stabbing the Tickler in ASOS and could very well be a result of wolf blood, the spear thing is cold rage not unlike Ned's rage after Tywin's "gift" is presented to Robert. Waking the dragon is often followed by a threat of some kind, and lasts a few minutes at least and Jon gets his shit together pretty quickly after finding the spears

I actually have Twinslayer on ignore so I don't really have any idea what he said.

I also sincerely hope that you're not hinging your "R+L=/=J" hopes on wolf blood vs. waking the dragon. Because that's just sad.

Knowing who Jon's parents really are, being told what "waking the dragon" constitutes and then seeing what Jon does, it's pretty clear to me that that's what it is. Wolf blood always seemed to point more to impulse control (Lyanna going off with Rhaegar, Brandon riding down to King's Landing), not so much "strength" or even necessarily "anger." When Ned mentions "wolf blood," that's to what he's referring.

[Jon Icefyre]

Very nicely drawn parallels. I agree, there is definitely a connection here, more than one actually, and its very much in GRRM's style to give us this shadow story. Trouble is, both stories have such huge gaps in them. We've done analysis on the tomb at Oldstones here before and there is a lot to be said about that- roses, a warhammer, his very name- Tristifer, related to the Latin word for sad. One other connection-- when Merrett Frey rides into the BwB ambush at Oldstones, Tom o' Sevens is playing Jenny's sad song.

Well said Lady G, always nice to here your perspective on things, and Ser Creighton awesome catch!

[J. Stargaryen]

Thanks man, and btw may I ask what UFC action in specific you were watching, I happen to be a fan lol :box:

Yes no one denies Arya's wolf blood which the text also strongly suggests is her general demeanor buy her overall behavior in thoughts and actions throughout the series, but the difference is Jon's demeanor does not suggest the same, and no matter how you try to spin it, you can't escape that simple fact....

At the time it was the prelims for the Condit-Kampmann. Now it's the main card on Fox Sports 1.

[Jon Icefyre]

At the time it was the prelims for the Condit-Kampmann. Now it's the main card on Fox Sports 1.

Oh yes this is gonna be an epic match, I got Condit, but anyways back to R+L=J lol.