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R+L=J v 59


Stubby

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I actually have Twinslayer on ignore so I don't really have any idea what he said.

I also sincerely hope that you're not hinging your "R+L=/=J" hopes on wolf blood vs. waking the dragon. Because that's just sad.

Knowing who Jon's parents really are, being told what "waking the dragon" constitutes and then seeing what Jon does, it's pretty clear to me that that's what it is. Wolf blood always seemed to point more to impulse control (Lyanna going off with Rhaegar, Brandon riding down to King's Landing), not so much "strength" or even necessarily "anger." When Ned mentions "wolf blood," that's to what he's referring.

Wolf blood also points to wild rages like Arya's stabbing of the or Lyanna beating up those squires single handedly, or Brandon shouting for Prince Rhaegar to "come out and die", and Rickon slashing at the guards of WF with a sword.No I don't rest my R+L=/=J hopes on wolf blood alone, they rest on Ghost's coloring, Arya's similarity to Lyanna and the meaning of the word "flowering", Robb becoming a king and legitimizing Jon, Wylla's involvement with the Daynes and her namesake in White Harbor, and many other things

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In terms of Jons resemblance to his father, I think it's in the subtleties, and it won't be noticed until the people who knew Rhaegar know Jon.

"Aegon" may "look" like Rhaegar, but again, his resemblance stops there.

Elia was known for her sweetness of temper, and Rhaegar for his reserve.

So far, "Aegon" has displayed neither as we see him callously remark upon the "some pisswater boy" who died in his place.

As for the Daynes and their appearance, perhaps they married into Aurane Waters house over the centuries, married a Lyceni, or even a Blackfyre.

EDIT: Michael Huisman who plays in "Nashville," and "Treme" has been cast in a secret role for the fourth season of aGoT.

Could it be a flashback of Brandon Stark? :ph34r:

http://tvline.com/2013/08/28/game-of-thrones-season-4-cast-michiel-huisman/

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Wolf blood also points to wild rages like Arya's stabbing of the or Lyanna beating up those squires single handedly, or Brandon shouting for Prince Rhaegar to "come out and die", and Rickon slashing at the guards of WF with a sword.No I don't rest my R+L=/=J hopes on wolf blood alone, they rest on Ghost's coloring, Arya's similarity to Lyanna and the meaning of the word "flowering", Robb becoming a king and legitimizing Jon, Wylla's involvement with the Daynes and her namesake in White Harbor, and many other things

Even the stuff your R+L=/=J rests on is pretty damn weak compared with what it's up against. So Ghost is albino; so is Bloodraven. So Arya is similar to Lyanna; doesn't mean Lyanna isn't Jon's mother. If anything the Arya likeness is meant to link Jon and Lyanna: Arya looks like Lyanna and Jon looks like Arya, so Jon also looks like Lyanna. No evidence at all that Wylla in Dorne has anything to do with Wylla Manderly (there's a Wyl in Dorne and the Wy- root in House Manderly; two easily identical yet independent names).

Wild rages are not necessarily the same as fits of inhuman strength. Jon wrenching the spear out of the ground, a job that took two men to do and they struggled at it, was not accompanied by any "wild rage."

Do better please.

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Wolf blood also points to wild rages like Arya's stabbing of the or Lyanna beating up those squires single handedly, or Brandon shouting for Prince Rhaegar to "come out and die", and Rickon slashing at the guards of WF with a sword.No I don't rest my R+L=/=J hopes on wolf blood alone, they rest on Ghost's coloring, Arya's similarity to Lyanna and the meaning of the word "flowering", Robb becoming a king and legitimizing Jon, Wylla's involvement with the Daynes and her namesake in White Harbor, and many other things

Boy, I hope the "...and many other things" stuff is a lot more convincing than what you listed.

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Wolf blood also points to wild rages like Arya's stabbing of the or Lyanna beating up those squires single handedly, or Brandon shouting for Prince Rhaegar to "come out and die", and Rickon slashing at the guards of WF with a sword.No I don't rest my R+L=/=J hopes on wolf blood alone, they rest on Ghost's coloring, Arya's similarity to Lyanna and the meaning of the word "flowering", Robb becoming a king and legitimizing Jon, Wylla's involvement with the Daynes and her namesake in White Harbor, and many other things

Yes, and weasel soup, and Ned staring at Jaime until he climbed off the Iron Throne, or looking at Cat in a way that frightens her, etc. I am inclined to think Jon gets his temper from his mother (Lyanna) and not from his father (Rhaegar) but of course I can see the argument that he gets it from Ned. Either way, like a lot of ideas that get floated here, I don't think Jon's temper supports the R+L=J theory.

I should give you a heads up, if you prove "Apple Martini" wrong a few times she'll pretend she's ignoring you. Once in a while she'll forget and respond to one of your posts. If you do it again, she'll go back to ignoring you for a while. Don't let that put you off the R+L=J thread, though. Most of the other regulars here are polite and open-minded and the discussion can be a lot of fun even if you don't subscribe to all (or even any) of the details.

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Even the stuff your R+L=/=J rests on is pretty damn weak compared with what it's up against. So Ghost is albino; so is Bloodraven. So Arya is similar to Lyanna; doesn't mean Lyanna isn't Jon's mother. If anything the Arya likeness is meant to link Jon and Lyanna: Arya looks like Lyanna and Jon looks like Arya, so Jon also looks like Lyanna. No evidence at all that Wylla in Dorne has anything to do with Wylla Manderly (there's a Wyl in Dorne and the Wy- root in House Manderly; two easily identical yet independent names).

Wild rages are not necessarily the same as fits of inhuman strength. Jon wrenching the spear out of the ground, a job that took two men to do and they struggled at it, was not accompanied by any "wild rage."

Do better please.

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

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I think Arya started showing these signs before Ned died, like when she threw the Crown Prince's sword in the river in AGOT.

Or she has an aversion to bullying the same way that Lyanna did with the squires and Howland Reed.

There is a difference between passion and righteous anger, and blind, falling-down-chewing-at-the-rushes, frothing-at-the-mouth rages.

Emotional response isn't going to be the evidence to tie Jon to the Targaryens, but it is a subtlety, and the Starks are more known for their reserve and being "grim."

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Yes, and weasel soup, and Ned staring at Jaime until he climbed off the Iron Throne, or looking at Cat in a way that frightens her, etc.

I should give you a heads up, if you prove "Apple Martini" wrong a few times she'll pretend she's ignoring you. Once in a while she'll forget and respond to one of your posts. If you do it again, she'll go back to ignoring you for a while.

Don't let that put you off the R+L=J thread, though. Most of the regulars here are pretty open-minded and the discussion can be a lot of fun even if you don't subscribe to all (or even any) of the details.

This R+L=J is widely known to have a vast amount of member that support R+L=J. So if any R+L=J doubters want to place their opinion on this thread and then have a problem with supporters vehemently disagreeing with them, then they shouldn't come on this thread. Just because this is a public thread doesn't mean R+L=J supporters absolutely have to be open minded if they've clearly been shown and display a vast amount of logistical reasons in the text, along with SSM/GRRM interviews, that point to one specific theory aka R+L=J......

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This R+L=J is widely known to have a vast amount of member that support R+L=J. So if anyone R+L=J doubters want to place their opinion on this thread and then have a problem with supporters vehemently disagreeing with them, then they shouldn't come on this thread. Just because this is a public thread doesn't mean R+L=J supporters absolutely have to be open minded if they have clearly been shown and display a vast amount of logistical reasons in the text that point to one specific theory......

I seem to remember Ygrain sharing a quote about how not all opinions are created equal. Which is true. R+L=J and R+L=/=J are both technically opinions at this point. But one is empirically of higher value than the other.

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Or she has an aversion to bullying the same way that Lyanna did with the squires and Howland Reed.

There is a difference between passion and righteous anger, and blind, falling-down-chewing-at-the-rushes, frothing-at-the-mouth rages.

That is a fair point, but with Arya it builds over time. It starts with the Joffrey incident, which I think is like Lyanna's incident with the squires, and it escalates through to the Tickler, which is the most vivid description of berserker rage I think there is in the books -- more frothing at the mouth than anything we see from Jon, since she stabs the guy over and over and all Jon does is to give someone a good beating.

I'm not saying that this disproves R+L=J. I'm just saying that Jon's temper isn't an R+L=J clue.

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I seem to remember Ygrain sharing a quote about how not all opinions are created equal. Which is true. R+L=J and R+L=/=J are both technically opinions at this point. But one is empirically of higher value than the other.

:agree: Indeed

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That is a fair point, but with Arya it builds over time. It starts with the Joffrey incident, which I think is like Lyanna's incident with the squires, and it escalates through to the Tickler, which is the most vivid description of berserker rage I think there is in the books -- more frothing at the mouth than anything we see from Jon, since she stabs the guy over and over and all Jon does is to give someone a good beating.

I'm not saying that this disproves R+L=J. I'm just saying that Jon's temper isn't an R+L=J clue.

But, I think hers is born of the inward helplessness of a frightened child; there is a reason for her terrible rage, and I think that Martin ties a historical significance to "waking the dragon" with the rage reminiscent of the legendary Angevin/Plantaganet tempers.

I think the reason why Jon and Dany's tempers are clues to the meaning "waking the dragon," is the Authors intent to connect their pseudo-historical, familial counterparts.

Elizabeth Tudor didn't mind to take a swipe at some of her advisors, but it wasn't the same rage as her Plantaganet forebears.

Having said that, I also think that "waking the dragon" also means finding inward truth as well.

As for Arya:

http://i.huffpost.co...SKIES-570.jpg?5

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Even the stuff your R+L=/=J rests on is pretty damn weak compared with what it's up against. So Ghost is albino; so is Bloodraven. So Arya is similar to Lyanna; doesn't mean Lyanna isn't Jon's mother. If anything the Arya likeness is meant to link Jon and Lyanna: Arya looks like Lyanna and Jon looks like Arya, so Jon also looks like Lyanna. No evidence at all that Wylla in Dorne has anything to do with Wylla Manderly (there's a Wyl in Dorne and the Wy- root in House Manderly; two easily identical yet independent names).

Wild rages are not necessarily the same as fits of inhuman strength. Jon wrenching the spear out of the ground, a job that took two men to do and they struggled at it, was not accompanied by any "wild rage."

Do better please.

The fact that GRRM put this in ADWD when Wynafred could have been the willful one and Leonette just take over the whole "Hush child" act. That Wylla would be the child's name and that she would be preaching total loyalty to the Starks is not a coincidence. We wouldn't have to hear all the talk about becoming a woman between Cersei and Sansa if it wasn't significant. The blue flower vision is a blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice. Which is very subtle foreshadowing that Arya could have her first flowering at the Wall. How is Jon growing at the Wall? Ghost is white. The Strark sigil is a grey direwolf on a white field. Bastards reverse their House colors as we've been told. So if Jon chose to display the direwolf of Stark, it would be a white direwolf on a grey field. Robb became a king and kings have the power to legitimize bastards, as we've been told at least three times. Robb's will legitimizes Jon as a Stark, which is what he has wanted since the beginning of ASOIAF. Jon is more likely to find out about Wylla and Ned or Ashara and Ned from Arya than he is to find out about R+L=J form Howland Reed, who hasn't revealed it to anyone. Robb would've been okay with it because Jon had grown up with him as his brother, Cat would've been overjoyed, and Robert was dead so where is the harm in this? Jojen who has greensight hasn't said one damn thing that points to R+L=J. Ned asked the gods for Cat to find it in her heart to forgive him and Ned wasn't above lying to Robert about Rhaegar or even Joffrey. Again, the spear thing was a cold rage like the one Ned was in when he went to the TOJ. If that was a waking the dragon moment why does he seem so calm and collected? Arya and Jon both had moments where they lost it and attacked somebody and couldn't stop attacking until they were pulled off, and to whoever wants to attribute the Tickler incident to trauma from listening to him torture people, Arya also beat the shit out of Hot Pie at the beginning of ACOK and wouldn't stop until Yoren pulled her off him. After visiting Barra Ned thinks about Jon and wonders "why the gods would fill men with such lusts if bastards were bad" what does that imply, if not that Ned is Jon's father and ashamed of how he dishonored Cat?

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The fact that GRRM put this in ADWD when Wynafred could have been the willful one and Leonette just take over the whole "Hush child" act. That Wylla would be the child's name and that she would be preaching total loyalty to the Starks is not a coincidence. We wouldn't have to hear all the talk about becoming a woman between Cersei and Sansa if it wasn't significant. The blue flower vision is a blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice. Which is very subtle foreshadowing that Arya could have her first flowering at the Wall. How is Jon growing at the Wall? Ghost is white. The Strark sigil is a grey direwolf on a white field. Bastards reverse their House colors as we've been told. So if Jon chose to display the direwolf of Stark, it would be a white direwolf on a grey field. Robb became a king and kings have the power to legitimize bastards, as we've been told at least three times. Robb's will legitimizes Jon as a Stark, which is what he has wanted since the beginning of ASOIAF. Jon is more likely to find out about Wylla and Ned or Ashara and Ned from Arya than he is to find out about R+L=J form Howland Reed, who hasn't revealed it to anyone. Robb would've been okay with it because Jon had grown up with him as his brother, Cat would've been overjoyed, and Robert was dead so where is the harm in this? Jojen who has greensight hasn't said one damn thing that points to R+L=J. Ned asked the gods for Cat to find it in her heart to forgive him and Ned wasn't above lying to Robert about Rhaegar or even Joffrey. Again, the spear thing was a cold rage like the one Ned was in when he went to the TOJ. If that was a waking the dragon moment why does he seem so calm and collected? Arya and Jon both had moments where they lost it and attacked somebody and couldn't stop attacking until they were pulled off, and to whoever wants to attribute the Tickler incident to trauma from listening to him torture people, Arya also beat the shit out of Hot Pie at the beginning of ACOK and wouldn't stop until Yoren pulled her off him. After visiting Barra Ned thinks about Jon and wonders "why the gods would fill men with such lusts if bastards were bad" what does that imply, if not that Ned is Jon's father and ashamed of how he dishonored Cat?

Considering that given R+L=J, Jon is still half-Stark, I'm not sure what it is exactly that you think the Stark imagery is supposed to prove. Seeing as I think Wylla probably was Jon's wet nurse at the Tower of Joy and concocted a story with Ned to protect him, I also don't see how the Wylla-at-White Harbor thing means anything for your argument. I've actually said before that it's fitting for Wylla Manderly and LYANNA Mormont to be the two strongest proponents for the Starks' claim to the northern kingship, Jon's probable kingship, when they were also the names of the two women who protected him most in his infancy: his wet nurse and his mother. It bookends well. I do think it was intentional on GRRM's part, just not in the way you think it is.

The blue flower at the Wall's symbolism is blindingly obvious. Rhaegar gave Lyanna the blue roses at the tournament and the blue rose symbolizes their union. The blue rose growing out of the Wall symbolizes Jon. It's easily one of the more straighforward bits of symbolism in the story.

You're fighting a losing battle here, sorry.

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Considering that given R+L=J, Jon is still half-Stark, I'm not sure what it is exactly that you think the Stark imagery is supposed to prove. Seeing as I think Wylla probably was Jon's wet nurse at the Tower of Joy and concocted a story with Ned to protect him, I also don't see how the Wylla-at-White Harbor thing means anything for your argument. I've actually said before that it's fitting for Wylla Manderly and LYANNA Mormont to be the two strongest proponents for the Starks' claim to the northern kingship, Jon's probable kingship, when they were also the names of the two women who protected him most in his infancy: his wet nurse and his mother. It bookends well. I do think it was intentional on GRRM's part, just not in the way you think it is.

The blue flower at the Wall's symbolism is blindingly obvious. Rhaegar gave Lyanna the blue roses at the tournament and the blue rose symbolizes their union. The blue rose growing out of the Wall symbolizes Jon. It's easily one of the more straighforward bits of symbolism in the story.

You're fighting a losing battle here, sorry.

This is probably one of the best R+L=J posts you'll ever see on this thread.

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Considering that given R+L=J, Jon is still half-Stark, I'm not sure what it is exactly that you think the Stark imagery is supposed to prove. Seeing as I think Wylla probably was Jon's wet nurse at the Tower of Joy and concocted a story with Ned to protect him,

Thats a pretty big secret to entrust to a wet nurse, I don't think Ned told ANYONE about Jon.

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Thats a pretty big secret to entrust to a wet nurse, I don't think Ned told ANYONE about Jon.

I don't think Ned chose to tell her. I think she was already there — as in, at the Tower as the midwife/wet nurse — and as such was in on it from the ground floor. The fact that Edric Dayne thinks Wylla is Jon's mother and Ned implies the same to Robert implies collusion; their independent stories have to line up. Obviously Wylla knows she's not really his mother, and she would need a plausible reason to hold onto Jon's secret. If she bonded with him and became protective of him when he was an infant, and possibly even delivered him, that could explain it.

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Thats a pretty big secret to entrust to a wet nurse, I don't think Ned told ANYONE about Jon.

He wouldn't have had a choice if she was already there before and during the time when he finally got there, which is the general theory....

Edit- :ninja: by Apple

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Considering that given R+L=J, Jon is still half-Stark, I'm not sure what it is exactly that you think the Stark imagery is supposed to prove. Seeing as I think Wylla probably was Jon's wet nurse at the Tower of Joy and concocted a story with Ned to protect him, I also don't see how the Wylla-at-White Harbor thing means anything for your argument. I've actually said before that it's fitting for Wylla Manderly and LYANNA Mormont to be the two strongest proponents for the Starks' claim to the northern kingship, Jon's probable kingship, when they were also the names of the two women who protected him most in his infancy: his wet nurse and his mother. It bookends well. I do think it was intentional on GRRM's part, just not in the way you think it is.

The blue flower at the Wall's symbolism is blindingly obvious. Rhaegar gave Lyanna the blue roses at the tournament and the blue rose symbolizes their union. The blue rose growing out of the Wall symbolizes Jon. It's easily one of the more straighforward bits of symbolism in the story.

You're fighting a losing battle here, sorry.

You haven't explained why Cat needed to find it in her heart to forgive Ned, why Howland has remained silent if he knows the truth, why Ghost is white and not grey if Jon's mother was a trueborn Stark, why GRRM chose to make Robb a king if it wasn't to legitimize Jon, and then there's this: history is repeating itself in ASOIAF, and many characters are essentially reincarnations of other figures in Westerosi history. Ex: (f)Aegon is Daemon Blackfyre, Robb is essentially Theon Stark, Rickon is Brandon, Cersei is Aerys, Arianne was (briefly) Criston Cole, Loras is Leo Longthorn, and Arya is Lyanna. The blue rose could represent her and you also haven't explained how Jon is growing at the Wall. I don't think my battle is lost quite yet Apple Martini :fencing:

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