R+L=J v 59

[Jon Icefyre]

You haven't explained why Cat needed to find it in her heart to forgive Ned, why Howland has remained silent if he knows the truth, why Ghost is white and not grey if Jon's mother was a trueborn Stark, why GRRM chose to make Robb a king if it wasn't to legitimize Jon,

Are actually serious right now? Ppl in including myself have already explained the reason for those things to you, several times on this thread, maybe AM doesn't think she would need to tell you things that have already been told to you repeatedly? You seem to have this notion that if argue a specific point to a R+L=J supporter that another supporter has already answered and offered a logical explanation against, then by bringing it up to another supporter that some how re-validates your argument.....Ya sorry, but it doesn't.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

You haven't explained why Cat needed to find it in her heart to forgive Ned, why Howland has remained silent if he knows the truth, why Ghost is white and not grey if Jon's mother was a trueborn Stark, why GRRM chose to make Robb a king if it wasn't to legitimize Jon, and then there's this: history is repeating itself in ASOIAF, and many characters are essentially reincarnations of other figures in Westerosi history. Ex: (f)Aegon is Daemon Blackfyre, Robb is essentially Theon Stark, Rickon is Brandon, Cersei is Aerys, Arianne was (briefly) Criston Cole, Loras is Leo Longthorn, and Arya is Lyanna. The blue rose could represent her and you also haven't explained how Jon is growing at the Wall. I don't think my battle is lost quite yet Apple Martini :fencing:

1. Because Catelyn thinks Ned committed adultery.

2. If Jon is a Targaryen, his life is at risk and as such Howland would be keeping his mouth shut about it.

3. Ghost's coloring is twofold: he is white with red eyes, like the weirwood trees; Jon keeps the old gods. The wolf is also albino like Bloodraven, who, like Jon, is half-First Men, half-Targaryen and a skinchanger. The direwolf actually bridges both halves of Jon's identity without the "bastard" color even having to be a factor.

4. Jon, even though he's half-Targaryen, will likely get the choice with which house he wants to identity. Robb's will lets him identify with the Starks.

5. Apart from vague comparisons to Lyanna, there is nothing tying Arya directly to the blue rose. Whereas there is repeated imagery tying it to Lyanna, and more importantly, tying it to Lyanna and Rhaegar.

6. Jon is growing as a person on the Wall. He's maturing, becoming a man, coming of age, etc.

I think it's extremely lost, no matter how many fencing emoticons you use.

[J. Stargaryen]

You haven't explained why Cat needed to find it in her heart to forgive Ned, why Howland has remained silent if he knows the truth, why Ghost is white and not grey if Jon's mother was a trueborn Stark, why GRRM chose to make Robb a king if it wasn't to legitimize Jon, and then there's this: history is repeating itself in ASOIAF, and many characters are essentially reincarnations of other figures in Westerosi history. Ex: (f)Aegon is Daemon Blackfyre, Robb is essentially Theon Stark, Rickon is Brandon, Cersei is Aerys, Arianne was (briefly) Criston Cole, Loras is Leo Longthorn, and Arya is Lyanna. The blue rose could represent her and you also haven't explained how Jon is growing at the Wall.

It's not a surprise to me that the people who don't know how to frame valid arguments, – where the burden of proof lies, for example – or don't know what a red herring actually is, are often the same people who doubt R+L=J, or perpetuate nonsense like Aegon being at the ToJ. Because when you actually understand these things, you realize just how few legitimate counter-arguments there are against R+L=J. None of which are contained in the quoted post, btw.

1. Because Catelyn thinks Ned committed adultery.

2. If Jon is a Targaryen, his life is at risk and as such Howland would be keeping his mouth shut about it.

3. Ghost's coloring is twofold: he is white with red eyes, like the weirwood trees; Jon keeps the old gods. The wolf is also albino like Bloodraven, who, like Jon, is half-First Men, half-Targaryen and a skinchanger. The direwolf actually bridges both halves of Jon's identity without the "bastard" color even having to be a factor.

4. Jon, even though he's half-Targaryen, will likely get the choice with which house he wants to identity. Robb's will lets him identify with the Starks.

5. Apart from vague comparisons to Lyanna, there is nothing tying Arya directly to the blue rose. Whereas there is repeated imagery tying it to Lyanna, and more importantly, tying it to Lyanna and Rhaegar.

6. Jon is growing as a person on the Wall. He's maturing, becoming a man, coming of age, etc.

I think it's extremely lost, no matter how many fencing emoticons you use.

:owned:

Also, to point three I would add that Jon has lived his entire life so far as a bastard. Even if R&L were married, it doesn't wipe out that fact.

[Alia of the knife]

You haven't explained why Cat needed to find it in her heart to forgive Ned, why Howland has remained silent if he knows the truth, why Ghost is white and not grey if Jon's mother was a trueborn Stark, why GRRM chose to make Robb a king if it wasn't to legitimize Jon, and then there's this: history is repeating itself in ASOIAF, and many characters are essentially reincarnations of other figures in Westerosi history. Ex: (f)Aegon is Daemon Blackfyre, Robb is essentially Theon Stark, Rickon is Brandon, Cersei is Aerys, Arianne was (briefly) Criston Cole, Loras is Leo Longthorn, and Arya is Lyanna. The blue rose could represent her and you also haven't explained how Jon is growing at the Wall. I don't think my battle is lost quite yet Apple Martini :fencing:

In all seriousness, you are not going to find a lot of diversity on this subject, hence why the thread is what it is.

You have every right to be here, but the arguments you are making have been made before and fleshed out pretty thoroughly. It's not about how clever other people are, but how much more clever Martin is, and he has a template and an intent. Jon, and the relationship of R+L as the parents of Jon, factor heavily into that template.

[Dead Wolf]

1. Because Catelyn thinks Ned committed adultery.

2. If Jon is a Targaryen, his life is at risk and as such Howland would be keeping his mouth shut about it.

3. Ghost's coloring is twofold: he is white with red eyes, like the weirwood trees; Jon keeps the old gods. The wolf is also albino like Bloodraven, who, like Jon, is half-First Men, half-Targaryen and a skinchanger. The direwolf actually bridges both halves of Jon's identity.

4. Jon, even though he's half-Targaryen, will likely get the choice with which house he wants to identity. Robb's will lets him identify with the Starks.

5. Apart from vague comparisons to Lyanna, there is nothing tying Arya directly to the blue rose. Whereas there is repeated imagery tying it to Lyanna, and more importantly, tying it to Lyanna and Rhaegar.

I think it's extremely lost, no matter how many fencing emoticons you use.

Robb held to the old gods and Grey Wind was grey. The reason Jon having a direwolf is not evidence against R+L=J is because Lyanna was a Stark and that would make Jon half a Stark like Ned's other children, but Ghost is an albino, why? Lyanna was trueborn and many R+L=J supporters believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were married so why isn't Ghost grey? To the Howland thing, telling Robb and Cat who Jon was wouldn't put him in danger. The other kings have closed their eyes to Dany and Stannis knew who Maester Aemon was, and did nothing with the information. Jon is in the NW and his looks shield him because people like Cersei, who saw Jon briefly, would dismiss it as a ridiculous rumor if they found out about it, no different than someone claiming Rhaegar himself had returned from the dead. Ned lied to Robert about who Lyanna truly loved and didn't ask forgiveness from the gods, he lied to Robert about Joffrey's parentage and never asked the gods to forgive him for that. Point 4, why would him being a Targ be included if he chose to be a Stark? Point 5, the flower in Dany's vision is growing from the wall of ice, how is Jon growing at the Wall?

[Jon Icefyre]

Point 5, the flower in Dany's vision is growing from the wall of ice, how is Jon growing at the Wall?

Umm idk, maybe because when Dany initially sees the vision in ACOK, Jon had barely been initiated into the NW from GOT, and by the fifth book he is LC of the NW? 'Growing' doesn't have to mean physically, it can also mean growing in terms of someone's official status or position in office. So ya, ppl could definitely say that Jon becoming LC of the NW was him 'growing' within the NW who's headquarters are located at the wall, not to mention the fact that he'll grow even more if he ends up becoming the KINT that helps the NW take on the Others. And again, the blue rose relates to him because of his mother Lyanna.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

The fact that GRRM put this in ADWD when Wynafred could have been the willful one and Leonette just take over the whole "Hush child" act. That Wylla would be the child's name and that she would be preaching total loyalty to the Starks is not a coincidence. We wouldn't have to hear all the talk about becoming a woman between Cersei and Sansa if it wasn't significant. The blue flower vision is a blue flower growing from a chink in a wall of ice. Which is very subtle foreshadowing that Arya could have her first flowering at the Wall. How is Jon growing at the Wall? Ghost is white. The Strark sigil is a grey direwolf on a white field. Bastards reverse their House colors as we've been told. So if Jon chose to display the direwolf of Stark, it would be a white direwolf on a grey field. Robb became a king and kings have the power to legitimize bastards, as we've been told at least three times. Robb's will legitimizes Jon as a Stark, which is what he has wanted since the beginning of ASOIAF. Jon is more likely to find out about Wylla and Ned or Ashara and Ned from Arya than he is to find out about R+L=J form Howland Reed, who hasn't revealed it to anyone. Robb would've been okay with it because Jon had grown up with him as his brother, Cat would've been overjoyed, and Robert was dead so where is the harm in this? Jojen who has greensight hasn't said one damn thing that points to R+L=J. Ned asked the gods for Cat to find it in her heart to forgive him and Ned wasn't above lying to Robert about Rhaegar or even Joffrey. Again, the spear thing was a cold rage like the one Ned was in when he went to the TOJ. If that was a waking the dragon moment why does he seem so calm and collected? Arya and Jon both had moments where they lost it and attacked somebody and couldn't stop attacking until they were pulled off, and to whoever wants to attribute the Tickler incident to trauma from listening to him torture people, Arya also beat the shit out of Hot Pie at the beginning of ACOK and wouldn't stop until Yoren pulled her off him. After visiting Barra Ned thinks about Jon and wonders "why the gods would fill men with such lusts if bastards were bad" what does that imply, if not that Ned is Jon's father and ashamed of how he dishonored Cat?

These are excellent ideas!

What do you think the relationship is between Lady Wylla Manderly and the Wylla that Lord Eddard talks about to King Robert in the Winterfell crypts?

I've been looking at the idea Wylla is the name of the fisherman's daughter that Davos learns about in Dance with Dragons. The theory goes that Wylla is a name used by the Manderlys, who are the most powerful family living in the area around the Bite. So people in that area might use Manderly names for their children. The fisherman plied his trade in and around the Bite, so it shouldn't surprise us if his daughter was named Wylla.

So Eddard got together with Wylla-the-fisherman's daughter early in Robert's Rebellion. She traveled with him until she started showing signs of pregnancy. Eddard then left her with a bastard in her belly and a bag of silver and told her to head for Winterfell. He went on with his army.

Wylla went back to Winterfell and by the time Lady Catelyn arrived she was all set up and passing herself off as Jon's wetnurse. After he saw Catelyn's reaction to Jon, Eddard realized he had to send Wylla as far away as he could, so he set her up with new employment as a wetnurse to his friends in House Dayne. He's very afraid that Catelyn will find out that he brought his mistress home from the war, so he lies about Wylla being the wetnurse and never tells Jon that his mother was right there in Winterfell with him when he was a baby. Lord Edric Dayne is telling the truth when he tells Arya that Wylla has been at Starfall since before he (Edric) was born because Edric was born a few years after Wylla got there from Winterfell.

If this is right, Wylla Manderly's name is there to get us thinking that Wylla is a name used around the Bite. But if you have another idea about what we ought to make of the name Wylla Manderly I'm very interested.

[Jon Icefyre]

These are excellent ideas!

What do you think the relationship is between Lady Wylla Manderly and the Wylla that Lord Eddard talks about to King Robert in the Winterfell crypts?

I've been looking at the idea Wylla is the name of the fisherman's daughter that Davos learns about in Dance with Dragons. The theory goes that Wylla is a name used by the Manderlys, who are the most powerful family living in the area around the Bite. So people in that area might use Manderly names for their children. The fisherman plied his trade in and around the Bite, so it shouldn't surprise us if his daughter was named Wylla.

So Eddard got together with Wylla-the-fisherman's daughter early in Robert's Rebellion. She traveled with him until she started showing signs of pregnancy. Eddard then left her with a bastard in her belly and a bag of silver and told her to head for Winterfell. He went on with his army.

Wylla went back to Winterfell and by the time Lady Catelyn arrived she was all set up and passing herself off as Jon's wetnurse. After he saw Catelyn's reaction to Jon, Eddard realized he had to send Wylla as far away as he could, so he set her up with new employment as a wetnurse to his friends in House Dayne. He's very afraid that Catelyn will find out that he brought his mistress home from the war, so he lies about Wylla being the wetnurse and never tells Jon that his mother was right there in Winterfell with him when he was a baby. Lord Edric Dayne is telling the truth when he tells Arya that Wylla has been at Starfall since before he (Edric) was born because Edric was born a few years after Wylla got there from Winterfell.

If this is right, Wylla Manderly's name is there to get us thinking that Wylla is a name used around the Bite. But if you have another idea about what we ought to make of the name Wylla Manderly I'm very interested.

Oh god, Ruby are we really gonna do this again? :bang:

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Oh god, Ruby are we really gonna do this again? :bang:

Well, if you really want to!

No, seriously, I want to hear what Robb's bannerman thinks about the two Wyllas, especially if it's something new.

[Alia of the knife]

Oh god, Ruby are we really gonna do this again? :bang:

LOL, you sound like a married man. :)

[Jon Icefyre]

LOL, you sound like a married man. :)

:lmao: I totally just had a premonition of future married life... :uhoh:

[LadyMary]

You haven't explained why Cat needed to find it in her heart to forgive Ned, why Howland has remained silent if he knows the truth, why Ghost is white and not grey if Jon's mother was a trueborn Stark, why GRRM chose to make Robb a king if it wasn't to legitimize Jon, and then there's this: history is repeating itself in ASOIAF, and many characters are essentially reincarnations of other figures in Westerosi history. Ex: (f)Aegon is Daemon Blackfyre, Robb is essentially Theon Stark, Rickon is Brandon, Cersei is Aerys, Arianne was (briefly) Criston Cole, Loras is Leo Longthorn, and Arya is Lyanna. The blue rose could represent her and you also haven't explained how Jon is growing at the Wall.

I think some of those comparisons are rather superficial and we don't have enough information to compare Rickon to anyone yet. He was basically an abandoned child who lost his parents and his home and set off on a journey to Skagos with a barely tame direwolf and a wildling spear wife. He's feral, whereas Brandon was just a bit of a hothead.

In any case, the blue flowers are significant.

Bael the Bard takes a blue rose from Winterfell's garden and leaves it in place of the daughter of Lord Stark whom he stole. Some time later, she reappears with a baby boy who becomes the next Lord Stark.

Rhaegar Targaryen was a reader and musician and it is reasonable to assume, he was acquainted with the legends and folk tales of the Seven Kingdoms, including of the North. He presents the daughter of Lord Stark with a wreath of blue roses and some time later, steals her. In both stories the man who steals Lord Stark's daughter is also the father of her son. That's where the comparison ends, but it may have some bearing on Rhaegar's poetic methods of wooing Lyanna. Then there's the blue flower growing from the chink in the Wall of ice, which ties into Rhaegar and his love for Lyanna, and the blue flowers that are a symbol of his love for her. What remains of that love is Jon Snow, but I also think it's tied to Danaerys as well, since they are kin. She'll go to the Wall and find her brother's son.

I think the connection between Arya and Lyanna is physical and to some degree, temperamental. Both have the blood of the wolf and similar looks. And we know that Arya most resembles the Stark side of her family, especially Jon. Jon and Arya and Lyanna have similar Stark features, and I would contend that Jon's temperament is as much due to his wolf's blood as his dragon blood. He's got a long fuse but watch out when it gets lit, he has a very strong sense of justice and takes action against bullies, just like his cousin Arya and his Mother, Lyanna. It doesn't mean he's not Rhaegar's son. Rhaegar has been called a "true dragon" but he was not known to fly into rages, unlike Viserys. Quite the contrary. He was known to fight only out of necessity. I think Jon's introversion and broodiness come from Rhaegar.

[Ser Creighton]

So what was Rhaegar like? I mean we have a few comments about him, but no POV save for a brief glimps from Dany. Conflicting reports to his character, only a brief history of him. I don't thinl anyone can actually say what Rhaegar was really like because as readers we have never gotten to no him. We have gossip and word of mouth, much like Gatsby.

Sme goes for Lyanna.

A debate of what is Dragons blood and wolfs blood? Oh they had tempers so they are clearly Blood of the dragon and wolf but it's not the same. So a temper, that only narrows it down to a massive number of people.

Jon is Jon and nobody can safely say what Rhaegar and Lyanna were like and who he is like. Which is fine Jon's Jon he didn't have Rhaegars life or his family, he has his own experiences, his own life, and he is his own person. Sure he has some Stark qualities at least some Eddard qualites but Eddard raised of course he is going to have some of his traits.

At what point did rumors, word of mouth and gossip mean that anyone new anyone enough to tell them what their kids are like?

What are the five major blood of the dragon characteristics as defined by the books? Not speculation, defined. What was Rhaegars sense of humor like, what kind of jokes did like, how did you cheer him up when he was down, favorite color, favorite wine, favorite song, what did he look for in his friends, what did he think of his father, what did he think of his mother, favorite fruit, favorite food, what type of horse did he like, what was his favorite feature on Lyanna's face, what did he think of the Stark in general? Same questions for Lyanna.

The are by and large enigmas much like their story. It don't matter if Jon is like Rhaegar or not, Stannis, Renly, and Robert were nothing alike, did they have different parents? No, and none of it changes the fact they were brother and the sons of their parents.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Robb held to the old gods and Grey Wind was grey. The reason Jon having a direwolf is not evidence against R+L=J is because Lyanna was a Stark and that would make Jon half a Stark like Ned's other children, but Ghost is an albino, why?

I already explained this, that it's symbolic of Bloodraven as much as it's symbolic of the old gods. The coloring works on multiple levels.

Lyanna was trueborn and many R+L=J supporters believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were married so why isn't Ghost grey?

Because I don't think the wolf's color has anything to do with being a bastard. It's the color of the weirwood and the colors of a fellow Targaryen skinchanger.

To the Howland thing, telling Robb and Cat who Jon was wouldn't put him in danger. The other kings have closed their eyes to Dany and Stannis knew who Maester Aemon was, and did nothing with the information.

Aemon had already taken the Watch oath and had proved that he wouldn't act based on his family allegiances.

As for the idea that telling Robb and Catelyn wouldn't put Jon in any danger, think back to what Ned thinks when he confronts Cersei. What would Catelyn do, if it was Jon's life against her own children's. If she knows he's a Targ, would she sell him out to the Lannisters to save her own kids? That's why he can't tell her.

Jon is in the NW and his looks shield him because people like Cersei, who saw Jon briefly, would dismiss it as a ridiculous rumor if they found out about it, no different than someone claiming Rhaegar himself had returned from the dead. Ned lied to Robert about who Lyanna truly loved and didn't ask forgiveness from the gods, he lied to Robert about Joffrey's parentage and never asked the gods to forgive him for that.

Now you're just rambling. Ned is not going to take any risks with Jon's safety. Period. He's not going to break a promise to his sister. Period.

Point 4, why would him being a Targ be included if he chose to be a Stark?

Prophecy. The Song of Ice and Fire. Jon is both ice and fire.

Point 5, the flower in Dany's vision is growing from the wall of ice, how is Jon growing at the Wall?

Jon is growing as a person on the Wall. He's becoming a man, coming of age, maturing, flourishing.

[Alia of the knife]

:lmao: I totally just had a premonition of future married life... :uhoh:

Just look at it as marital "boot camp, " because it will come down to whether Ben Affleck should be Batman, or not, LOL.

[Ygrain]

So the blue flower on the Wall means that Arya will get her first period on the Wall?

:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Sorry but that totally made my morning.

That flower is a rose, Jorah says it when talking about Dany's visions a few chapters later. It has nothing to do with flowering but GRRM used flower instead of rose to muddy the connection. He does that often, using a description or a less specific term, not to give away too much.

[Ser Creighton]

Oh god, Ruby are we really gonna do this again? :bang:

Hahahaha next time keep the seat down.

[Ser Creighton]

Just look at it as marital "boot camp, " because it will come down to whether Ben Affleck should be Batman, or not, LOL.

No, just no, dude has been on fire, but Snyder movies have no substance and Ben is not Batman. 60 million Bale, 60 million? You know why he turned it down? Snyder. Both the last director of Batman and Affleck are far better directors than Snyder who is all style and no substance. :thumbsdown:

Not a boot camp a warning, Jon... Run!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4F4qzPbcFiA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D4F4qzPbcFiA

[Jon Icefyre]

Just look at it as marital "boot camp, " because it will come down to whether Ben Affleck should be Batman, or not, LOL.

No, just no, dude has been on fire, but Snyder movies have no substance and Ben is not Batman. 60 million Bale, 60 million? You know why he turned it down? Snyder. Both the last director of Batman and Affleck are far better directors than Snyder who is all style and no substance. :thumbsdown:

Not a boot camp a warning, Jon... Run!

http://m.youtube.com...h?v=4F4qzPbcFiA

Haha I love Christian Bale, but since he's out, my first choice to replace him was actually Michael Fassbender.

[Ser Creighton]

Haha I love Christian Bale, but since he's out, my first choice to replace him was actually Michael Fassbender.

Yeah he is excellent and could pull off Bruce, which while Ben can be Batman he just isn't Bruce. Fassbender however is under the X standard. Jackman could also pull it off. Still I heard at one point they were looking at some guy from teen wolf which is on MTV. Hell and no.