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R+L=J v 59


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Robb, on Today, 08:40 AM, said:

You haven't explained why Cat needed to find it in her heart to forgive Ned, why Howland has remained silent if he knows the truth, why Ghost is white and not grey if Jon's mother was a trueborn Stark

Posted Today, 08:52 AM

1. Because Catelyn thinks Ned committed adultery.

2. If Jon is a Targaryen, his life is at risk and as such Howland would be keeping his mouth shut about it.

3. Ghost's coloring is twofold: he is white with red eyes, like the weirwood trees; Jon keeps the old gods. The wolf is also albino like Bloodraven, who, like Jon, is half-First Men, half-Targaryen and a skinchanger. The direwolf actually bridges both halves of Jon's identity without the "bastard" color even having to be a factor.

4. Jon, even though he's half-Targaryen, will likely get the choice with which house he wants to identity. Robb's will lets him identify with the Starks.

5. Apart from vague comparisons to Lyanna, there is nothing tying Arya directly to the blue rose. Whereas there is repeated imagery tying it to Lyanna, and more importantly, tying it to Lyanna and Rhaegar.

6. Jon is growing as a person on the Wall. He's maturing, becoming a man, coming of age, etc.

I agree with Apple Martini's points. Also I want to add my thoughs on Ghost: Other than his resemblance to a heart tree, its also possible that the original Stark sigil was a white direwolf on a grey background. The citadel uses white ravens to signal the arrival of winter so why not a white direwolf for a house so associated with winter and the old gods? According to Old Nan, the Long Night was not literally a night that lasted a generation. Instead the days were very short and sun hid for years at a time. The grey might represent the long night.

Ned was clad in a white linen doublet with the direwolf of Stark on the breast; his black wool cloak was fastened at the collar by his silver hand of office. Black and white and grey, all the shades of truth.

When bastards inherit, they usually invert the colours of their house. So if in the past a bastard Stark was legitimised and inherited, he might have inverted the Stark colours to their present form of a grey direwolf on a field of white.

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When bastards inherit, they usually inverse the colours of their house. So if in the past a bastard Stark was legitimised and inherited, he might have inverted the Stark colours to their present form of a grey direwolf on a field of white.

Which actually might have been a case, with the son of Bael the Bard. A good catch.

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Which actually might have been a case, with the son of Bael the Bard. A good catch.

It's something to ponder, but grey is a normal color for a wolf and white is a normal color for snow. :)

Also, I doubt it's a coincidence that the background colors of the Stark and Targaryen sigils are white and black.

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You haven't explained why Cat needed to find it in her heart to forgive Ned, why Howland has remained silent if he knows the truth, why Ghost is white and not grey if Jon's mother was a trueborn Stark, why GRRM chose to make Robb a king if it wasn't to legitimize Jon, and then there's this: history is repeating itself in ASOIAF, and many characters are essentially reincarnations of other figures in Westerosi history. Ex: (f)Aegon is Daemon Blackfyre, Robb is essentially Theon Stark, Rickon is Brandon, Cersei is Aerys, Arianne was (briefly) Criston Cole, Loras is Leo Longthorn, and Arya is Lyanna. The blue rose could represent her and you also haven't explained how Jon is growing at the Wall. I don't think my battle is lost quite yet Apple Martini :fencing:

And you haven't explained why Ned should have so cruelly denied the truth to Jon (causing him a very deep emotional wound), if his parentage was anything but R+L.

6. Jon is growing as a person on the Wall. He's maturing, becoming a man, coming of age, etc.

In Maester Aemon's word 'kill the boy and let the man be born'.

Oh yeah I forgot about the tomb. That's wierd about Tristifer, wasn't he one of the characters in Legends of the Fall. Nope, nope, nope. Lets see I just don't know the name Tristifer is ringing a bell, where have I heard soomething like that before? And why is Lady Gwynhyfvar reminding me of it? Lets see Gwynhyfvar, Tristifer, Legends of the fall, well that's like two love triangles and a guy named Tristifer. What could a Tristifer have to do with a love triangle???? Now if the guys name was Tristan like in legends of the fall then I would totally think Tristan and Iseult the famed celtic romance from the 12th century the Prose Tristan. But the names are totally different. But IF i was to let it go I am going to go ahead and say that maybe just maybe this might be one of your favorite subject and you probably covered the hell out of it.

So yeah Martin dropped a huge clue bomb with that tomb. I mean Tristan and Iseult. Next thing you know Tristan will have played a harp, not likely though. Or maybe he totally did.

Have a look at our ravings starting from here and here, with the brilliant contributions of Ygrain, Lady G and many other 'veterans' of this board :)

But, I think hers is born of the inward helplessness of a frightened child; there is a reason for her terrible rage, and I think that Martin ties a historical significance to "waking the dragon" with the rage reminiscent of the legendary Angevin/Plantaganet tempers.

I think the reason why Jon and Dany's tempers are clues to the meaning "waking the dragon," is the Authors intent to connect their pseudo-historical, familial counterparts.

Elizabeth Tudor didn't mind to take a swipe at some of her advisors, but it wasn't the same rage as her Plantaganet forebears.

Having said that, I also think that "waking the dragon" also means finding inward truth as well.

:agree: What some people fail to see in the Iron Emmett episode is Jon's out of body detachment that Arya did NOT experience while stabbing the Tickler (she was oh-so-very present though in a frenzied rage). What strikes me is not only the violence of Jon's 'berserk trip', but the peculiar detachment he experiences during it. He disconnects entirely from reality (as often happens with schizofrenia) and only realises what he's doing when Halder and Horse pulls him away. If this is not a touch of Targaryen madness...

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Well, if you really want to!

No, seriously, I want to hear what Robb's bannerman thinks about the two Wyllas, especially if it's something new.

You pretty much already said what I was thinking

I think some of those comparisons are rather superficial and we don't have enough information to compare Rickon to anyone yet. He was basically an abandoned child who lost his parents and his home and set off on a journey to Skagos with a barely tame direwolf and a wildling spear wife. He's feral, whereas Brandon was just a bit of a hothead.

In any case, the blue flowers are significant.

Bael the Bard takes a blue rose from Winterfell's garden and leaves it in place of the daughter of Lord Stark whom he stole. Some time later, she reappears with a baby boy who becomes the next Lord Stark.

Rhaegar Targaryen was a reader and musician and it is reasonable to assume, he was acquainted with the legends and folk tales of the Seven Kingdoms, including of the North. He presents the daughter of Lord Stark with a wreath of blue roses and some time later, steals her. In both stories the man who steals Lord Stark's daughter is also the father of her son. That's where the comparison ends, but it may have some bearing on Rhaegar's poetic methods of wooing Lyanna. Then there's the blue flower growing from the chink in the Wall of ice, which ties into Rhaegar and his love for Lyanna, and the blue flowers that are a symbol of his love for her. What remains of that love is Jon Snow, but I also think it's tied to Danaerys as well, since they are kin. She'll go to the Wall and find her brother's son.

I think the connection between Arya and Lyanna is physical and to some degree, temperamental. Both have the blood of the wolf and similar looks. And we know that Arya most resembles the Stark side of her family, especially Jon. Jon and Arya and Lyanna have similar Stark features, and I would contend that Jon's temperament is as much due to his wolf's blood as his dragon blood. He's got a long fuse but watch out when it gets lit, he has a very strong sense of justice and takes action against bullies, just like his cousin Arya and his Mother, Lyanna. It doesn't mean he's not Rhaegar's son. Rhaegar has been called a "true dragon" but he was not known to fly into rages, unlike Viserys. Quite the contrary. He was known to fight only out of necessity. I think Jon's introversion and broodiness come from Rhaegar.

In the story, Lord Stark's daughter is described as the "rose of Winterfell" and that she is very beautiful, Arya is coming into her natural beauty at the end of ADWD so not only Lyanna can be represented by blue roses. It could be a reference to Arya being the "rose of Winterfell" if Sansa doesn't come back from the Vale and Arya seeks Jon out.

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I already explained this, that it's symbolic of Bloodraven as much as it's symbolic of the old gods. The coloring works on multiple levels.

Because I don't think the wolf's color has anything to do with being a bastard. It's the color of the weirwood and the colors of a fellow Targaryen skinchanger.

Aemon had already taken the Watch oath and had proved that he wouldn't act based on his family allegiances.

As for the idea that telling Robb and Catelyn wouldn't put Jon in any danger, think back to what Ned thinks when he confronts Cersei. What would Catelyn do, if it was Jon's life against her own children's. If she knows he's a Targ, would she sell him out to the Lannisters to save her own kids? That's why he can't tell her.

Now you're just rambling. Ned is not going to take any risks with Jon's safety. Period. He's not going to break a promise to his sister. Period.

Prophecy. The Song of Ice and Fire. Jon is both ice and fire.

Jon is growing as a person on the Wall. He's becoming a man, coming of age, maturing, flourishing.

Cat was in no position to do anything that would endanger Jon. Robb was KitN and both the northern and river lords would obey him if he decreed that Jon was not to be harmed. Cat was a prisoner guilty of treason and she was well aware that Arya was likely dead and the Lannisters would never let go of Sansa, so selling Jon to the Lannisters wouldn't have accomplished anything

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Cat was in no position to do anything that would endanger Jon. Robb was KitN and both the northern and river lords would obey him if he decreed that Jon was not to be harmed. Cat was a prisoner guilty of treason and she was well aware that Arya was likely dead and the Lannisters would never let go of Sansa, so selling Jon to the Lannisters wouldn't have accomplished anything

You're losing focus, why yould Howland tell Catelyn or Robb in the first place? If he is going to be responsible for the reveal, it will very likely be according to an agreement with or an order by Ned.

And even neglecting the above, Catelyn still could put him in danger, she already released the Kingslayer with a small chance of success, if she could've found a way to trade the information for the safety of her daughters, she might've done it.

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Cat was in no position to do anything that would endanger Jon. Robb was KitN and both the northern and river lords would obey him if he decreed that Jon was not to be harmed. Cat was a prisoner guilty of treason and she was well aware that Arya was likely dead and the Lannisters would never let go of Sansa, so selling Jon to the Lannisters wouldn't have accomplished anything

IF is a conditional. WOULD in an if-clause is a second conditional, or irreal condition. A hypothetical situation, illustrating that Cat would place her children's safety over that of Jon.

In the story, Lord Stark's daughter is described as the "rose of Winterfell" and that she is very beautiful, Arya is coming into her natural beauty at the end of ADWD so not only Lyanna can be represented by blue roses. It could be a reference to Arya being the "rose of Winterfell" if Sansa doesn't come back from the Vale and Arya seeks Jon out.

In the five books published so far, there is zero reference to Arya or Sansa in connection with a blue rose while the references to Lyanna and blue roses are multiple and still keep resurfacing long after the PoV which introduced the reference is gone. Arya is NOT represented by blue roses.

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Still no explanation of why Ned should have so cruelly denied the truth to Jon (causing him a very deep emotional wound), if his parentage was anything but R+L...

He told Robert but not Jon :shocked: Half of Westeros has a name (be it Wylla or Ashara or the fisherman daughter), Jon must guess - and dread she could be a whore. Talking of functional parenting...

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I wasn't sure whether to start a new topic somewhere (in the TV series) but I'll just post it here and see what happens.

I tend to follow this theory having read the books and seen a lot of convincing arguments on the forum.

As I was re-watching the first series of GoT the other day, in the episode 'Cripples, Bastards, and Broken Things' I noticed something (a little crackpot) that the production designers might have added as a clue.

As Ser Alliser is talking to Jon and Sam when they are cleaning tables, I'm almost certain that carved on the post right behind Jon Snow are the letters R L...possible recognition of these theories? :P

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Lol, really?

But, yeah, al lot of clues are coming from the shows, not the least of them "if I were Jon's father" (SB) or "Jon doesn't know who his parents are - who his mother is" (KT), and, of course, the famous test question for the producers.

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Is there any record of Ashara daynes parents having targaryan blood? Selmy recalls that danys eyes resembles ashara daynes eyes.

Ashara dayne being the sister of the sword of the morning.

It is said that she was dishonored in the tournament in harrenhal and danced with both Brandon and Ned.

We don't have proof that lyanna actually gave birth to jon? That she was pregnant right? She died of a fever?

After the tower of joy, ned went down with the sword Dawn to starfall, and left off with a child aka Jon.

So perhaps it is Neds son? Bastard with Ashara....but i dunno.

Ned says in AGOT "Jon is my blood! and that is the end of it" And not his son. So perhaps it's not his son after all...

I also belive that Measter Luwin knew about Jons parantage. He hints to that when he talks about Jon going to the NW in AGOT when he shows ned and catlyn the letter form Lysa. Thereafter Ned assures him that he will tell jon, when the time comes.

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Why is Shaggydog black if Rickon's father was a trueborn Stark?

Shaggydog wasn't always black, when Jon and Robb found the pups he was grey. Shaggydog's fur turning black was a result of his connection with Rickon, who is dark and angry about being abandoned. And there is a clear parallel between Rickon and the Blackfish, only Rickon is the Black Wolf of the Starks

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Is there any record of Ashara daynes parents having targaryan blood? Selmy recalls that danys eyes resembles ashara daynes eyes.

Ashara dayne being the sister of the sword of the morning.

It is said that she was dishonored in the tournament in harrenhal and danced with both Brandon and Ned.

We don't have proof that lyanna actually gave birth to jon? That she was pregnant right? She died of a fever?

After the tower of joy, ned went down with the sword Dawn to starfall, and left off with a child aka Jon.

So perhaps it is Neds son? Bastard with Ashara....but i dunno.

Ned says in AGOT "Jon is my blood! and that is the end of it" And not his son. So perhaps it's not his son after all...

I also belive that Measter Luwin knew about Jons parantage. He hints to that when he talks about Jon going to the NW in AGOT when he shows ned and catlyn the letter form Lysa. Thereafter Ned assures him that he will tell jon, when the time comes.

No, the Daynes don't have Targ blood - they don○t even have Valyrian blood, which could mean that their origin is proto-Valyrian.

Lyanna is twice mentioned by Ned "in bed of blood". Towards the end of AGOT, Mirri Maz Duur uses a phrase "bloody bed" as a synonym for "birthing bed", and later in AFFC we even have the exact "bed of blood" again as a reference to childbirth.

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood. (AGOT

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses (AGOT)

“Before,” Dany said to the ugly Lhazareen woman, “I heard you speak of birthing songs …”

“I know every secret of the bloody bed, Silver Lady, nor have I ever lost a babe,” Mirri Maz Duur replied. (AGOT)

“The Lamb Woman knows the secrets of the birthing bed,” Irri said. “She said so, I heard her.” (AGOT)

That was the way of this cold world, where men fished the sea and dug in the ground and died, whilst women brought forth short-lived children from beds of blood and pain. (Damphair, AFFC)

The part about Ned leaving Starfall with Jon, while plausible, is not supported by the text (yet), we do not know if he took Jon to Starfall. Given Wylla's presence there, it is well possible, but it cannot be claimed as a fact.

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I already explained this, that it's symbolic of Bloodraven as much as it's symbolic of the old gods. The coloring works on multiple levels.

Because I don't think the wolf's color has anything to do with being a bastard. It's the color of the weirwood and the colors of a fellow Targaryen skinchanger.

Aemon had already taken the Watch oath and had proved that he wouldn't act based on his family allegiances.

As for the idea that telling Robb and Catelyn wouldn't put Jon in any danger, think back to what Ned thinks when he confronts Cersei. What would Catelyn do, if it was Jon's life against her own children's. If she knows he's a Targ, would she sell him out to the Lannisters to save her own kids? That's why he can't tell her.

Now you're just rambling. Ned is not going to take any risks with Jon's safety. Period. He's not going to break a promise to his sister. Period.

Prophecy. The Song of Ice and Fire. Jon is both ice and fire.

Jon is growing as a person on the Wall. He's becoming a man, coming of age, maturing, flourishing.

A possibiltity for the Ice and Fire prophecy: Ice=Bran, Fire=Dany

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A possibiltity for the Ice and Fire prophecy: Ice=Bran, Fire=Dany

A song of Ice and Fire is supposed to be PTWP from the line of Rhaella and Aerys, i.e. one person. None of the known Targs possesses the ice element.

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bloodraven

`bloodraven?

??What do you mean??

It's not Bloodraven's prophecy but one that Rhaegar read somewhere, and it is not about Bloodraven as he is not a descendant of this lineage.

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