assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I saw your "explanation" for the two Wyllas and found it very weak. You should think that one through some more.How is it weak? We know that Wy- is a root for House Manderly. And there is a Wyl in Dorne. Two similar roots that can result in two identical names that nevertheless have nothing to do with each other. I'm also still curious as to what a fisherman's daughter from the VALE has to do with a girl from White Harbor, which the last time I checked was in the North. You think you've found a link because Wylla Manderly and Wylla in Dorne have the same name, even though 1. nothing links them to each other, much less to this fisherman's daughter, and 2. this fisherman's daughter is from a completely different region.Considering some of what I've seen you spin regarding the blindingly obvious red herring that is the fisherman's daughter, I'm not sure it's prudent for you to call anyone else's logic "weak." You should think it through more, by which I mean, see it for the dead end it so clearly is and discard it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby Chevrolet Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Still no explanation of why Ned should have so cruelly denied the truth to Jon (causing him a very deep emotional wound), if his parentage was anything but R+L...He told Robert but not Jon :shocked: Half of Westeros has a name (be it Wylla or Ashara or the fisherman daughter), Jon must guess - and dread she could be a whore. Talking of functional parenting...I had to smile a little at the idea of Lord Eddard as a functional parent. This is the man who made his seven year old son watch him chop off someone's head. It is significant that Jon is the one who told Brandon how disappointed their father would be if he looked away. The lesson here is that Eddard is not a touchy-feely father. At least, not to his sons. He brought his bastard home when others would have let the boy grow up hungry. As far as Eddard was concerned, Jon should be grateful for what he was given, not questioning his Lord father about embarrassing escapades from his youth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby Chevrolet Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 How is it weak? We know that Wy- is a root for House Manderly. And there is a Wyl in Dorne. Two similar roots that can result in two identical names that nevertheless have nothing to do with each other. I'm also still curious as to what a fisherman's daughter from the VALE has to do with a girl from White Harbor, which the last time I checked was in the North. You think you've found a link because Wylla Manderly and Wylla in Dorne have the same name, even though 1. nothing links them to each other, much less to this fisherman's daughter, and 2. this fisherman's daughter is from a completely different region.Considering some of what I've seen you spin regarding the blindingly obvious red herring that is the fisherman's daughter, I'm not sure it's prudent for you to call anyone else's logic "weak." You should think it through more, by which I mean, see it for the dead end it so clearly is and discard it.I think one of the problems here is that you are thinking of the difference between two places on the Bite like its the difference between Tokyo and Madrid. If you look at the map, you'll see it is more like the difference between Gibralter and Morocco. The Manderlys are the dominant family in the area and the fisherman lived closer to them than to the Arryns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I think one of the problems here is that you are thinking of the difference between two places on the Bite like its the difference between Tokyo and Madrid. If you look at the map, you'll see it is more like the difference between Gibralter and Morocco. The Manderlys are the dominant family in the area and the fisherman lived closer to them than to the Arryns.It's still two different regions, no matter how close they are. And near as I can tell you have still produced exactly squat when it comes to linking Wylla-from-Dorne to this fisherman's daughter, except the Wylla Manderly angle, which doesn't really even work because you still can't link Wylla Manderly to either Wylla-from-Dorne or the fisherman's daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Wolf Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 And it's not nearly as compelling as the case that there isn't any connection. Especially when I've already suggested how two totally unrelated women in different parts of the country can still have the same name.Ruby Chevrolet presented a stronger case, yes the Wyls are a noble House in Dorne and yes, they have the same root Wy, but we don't know anything about the Wyls where we know quite a bit about House Manderly, Wylla's name appearing isn't a coincidence or a red herring to distract us from R+L=J. The women are not unrelated because White Harbor and Dorne are not close to each other. GRRM doesn't do pointless stuff in his books, almost everything has a purpose, and the purpose of Wylla Manderly is to provide with a clue that Wylla is significant and not just a story concocted by Ned.How is it weak? We know that Wy- is a root for House Manderly. And there is a Wyl in Dorne. Two similar roots that can result in two identical names that nevertheless have nothing to do with each other. I'm also still curious as to what a fisherman's daughter from the VALE has to do with a girl from White Harbor, which the last time I checked was in the North. You think you've found a link because Wylla Manderly and Wylla in Dorne have the same name, even though 1. nothing links them to each other, much less to this fisherman's daughter, and 2. this fisherman's daughter is from a completely different region.Considering some of what I've seen you spin regarding the blindingly obvious red herring that is the fisherman's daughter, I'm not sure it's prudent for you to call anyone else's logic "weak." You should think it through more, by which I mean, see it for the dead end it so clearly is and discard it.The Sisters were fought over by the Arryns and the Starks for a long time because the islands were close to both regions. The fisherman's daughter lived on the Sisters very close to White Harbor, so the argument about the fisherman's daughter being Wylla is pretty solid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Ruby Chevrolet presented a stronger case, yes the Wyls are a noble House in Dorne and yes, they have the same root Wy, but we don't know anything about the Wyls where we know quite a bit about House Manderly, Wylla's name appearing isn't a coincidence or a red herring to distract us from R+L=J. The women are not unrelated because White Harbor and Dorne are not close to each other. GRRM doesn't do pointless stuff in his books, almost everything has a purpose, and the purpose of Wylla Manderly is to provide with a clue that Wylla is significant and not just a story concocted by Ned.I have already explained that Wylla is significant to Jon's story ... she's just not his mother. Lyanna Stark is his mother. I don't think Wylla Manderly is a coincidence, just like I don't think LYANNA Mormont is a coincidence.ETA: Speaking of Lyanna Stark, I would also love to hear your thoughts as to what exactly happened to her, what her "bed of blood" was and so on and so forth. That's the thing about getting Jon's parentage wrong: You not only have to explain who works as Jon's mother, but also what happened to Lyanna.The Sisters were fought over by the Arryns and the Starks for a long time because the islands were close to both regions. The fisherman's daughter lived on the Sisters very close to White Harbor, so the argument about the fisherman's daughter being Wylla is pretty solid.You do realize that the timeline for Jon's birth doesn't fit the fisherman's daughter story, right? You also realize that Borrell's story already contains at least one pretty big factual error, right? (He claims the fisherman's daughter named Jon, when we know from GRRM that Ned did.) Meaning, since it has a big error in it right off the bat, why the hell should we take it as fact? Why do you assume Borrell actually knows anything at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Amen.Also, here is this:Michael Huisman who plays in "Nashville," and "Treme" has been cast in a secret role for the fourth season of aGoT.Could it be a flashback of Brandon Stark? :ph34r: http://tvline.com/2013/08/28/game-of-thrones-season-4-cast-michiel-huisman/He's replacing Ed Skrein as Daario. It's been confirmed. http://winteriscomin...joins-the-cast/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I don't know about everybody else, but I find this Ruby Chevrolet + Robb's bannerman pairing to be a match made in heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead Wolf Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I have already explained that Wylla is significant to Jon's story ... she's just not his mother. Lyanna Stark is his mother. I don't think Wylla Manderly is a coincidence, just like I don't think LYANNA Mormont is a coincidence.You do realize that the timeline for Jon's birth doesn't fit the fisherman's daughter story, right? You also realize that Borrell's story already contains at least one pretty big factual error, right? (He claims the fisherman's daughter named Jon, when we know from GRRM that Ned did.) Meaning, since it has a big error in it right off the bat, why the hell should we take it as fact? Why do you assume Borrell actually knows anything at all?I didn't say we should take the fisherman's daughter story as fact, I said it was a possibility. The war raged close to a year and was already technically under way when Ned crossed the Fingers. Wylla being Jon's wetnurse and being at the TOJ doesn't work because when Cat got to Winterfell Jon and his wetnurse had already taken up residence. How would Wylla have gotten to Winterfell from Dorne quicker than Cat did from Riverrun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I don't know about everybody else, but I find this Ruby Chevrolet + Robb's bannerman pairing to be a match made in heaven.An echo chamber of weak textual analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 An echo chamber of weak textual analysis.There is someone out there for everyone. This proves it. Definitively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I didn't say we should take the fisherman's daughter story as fact, I said it was a possibility. The war raged close to a year and was already technically under way when Ned crossed the Fingers.According to the "official" story, Robb is older than Jon. Robb was conceived, according to Catelyn, on their wedding night. If Ned had conceived Jon with some fisherman's daughter, Jon would be older than Robb, noticeably, but he isn't. Ned also would have conceived Jon BEFORE he married Catelyn, in which case, he never would have had to admit he committed adultery, because he wouldn't have. The reason the adultery angle exists at all is because Robb is older than Jon officially, and if Robb is older than Jon, then Ned had to have committed adultery if he is in fact Jon's father. If Jon is older than Robb, then the adultery angle makes no sense because there was never any adultery. Like I said, the fisherman's daughter story can be tossed out pretty much immediately just by virtue of it conflicting with the known timeline of events.Wylla being Jon's wetnurse and being at the TOJ doesn't work because when Cat got to Winterfell Jon and his wetnurse had already taken up residence. How would Wylla have gotten to Winterfell from Dorne quicker than Cat did from Riverrun?Why do you automatically assume that the same wet nurse Catelyn found in Winterfell was Wylla? I've never thought that, nor have I ever argued it. If I'm Ned, I keep Wylla way the hell away from Winterfell, because she knows too much. If Wylla did schlep all the way to Winterfell, she also at some point had to get all the way back down to Starfall. The far more logical conclusion is that she stayed in Dorne and Ned just got another wet nurse. I understand that more than one of them exists at any given time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Icefyre Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 He's replacing Ed Skrein as Daario. It's been confirmed. http://winteriscomin...joins-the-cast/What happened to the other guy? I thought he was pretty good as Daario....An echo chamber of weak textual analysis.They seem to have this notion, that if they bring up a highly unlikely hypothetical situation as a counter argument that has a slight(slight being the key word) chance of being possible, then that somehow trumps all the overwhelming amount of evidence that supports R+L=J, which btw, no other 'valid' counter theory even comes close to matching.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 He's replacing Ed Skrein as Daario. It's been confirmed. http://winteriscomin...joins-the-cast/Really?!Wow, that was fast.After you confirmed this, my nosy self had to look him up to see what gives, but they were pretty mysterious about it.Looks like Tommen has been replaced too. The kid that plays Bran had better stay in a chair, because now he is topping off at 5'8. Hoder will NOT be carrying him around, (or at least the actor who plays him), at least without a raise. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Stargaryen Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 What happened to the other guy? I thought he was pretty good as Daario....They seem to have this notion, that if they bring up a highly unlikely hypothetical situation as a counter argument that has a slight(slight being an understatement) chance of being possible, then that somehow trumps all the overwhelming amount of evidence that supports R+L=J, which btw, no other 'valid' counter theory even comes close to matching....I'm not sure why Ed Skrein was replaced. I don't know if I'm great at judging actors performances, but he seemed alright to me. Btw, did you know they also recast the role of Tommen? It's going to be one of the Lannister boys – Martyn or Willem – that Karstark murdered. :ninja: - AliaETA: Link for the Tommen recasting story.As for the second paragraph, this is a common mistake that people who don't know, or understand, how to construct arguments make. Like I said the other day, it's not a surprise that a decent number of the people who doubt R+L=J are the same ones who don't know how to form logical arguments, or don't know what red herrings are. Because when you can correctly identify these things – logical arguments, red herrings, etc. – it helps you understand just how strong the case is for R+L=J, and how weak the counter case is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruby Chevrolet Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 According to the "official" story, Robb is older than Jon. Robb was conceived, according to Catelyn, on their wedding night. If Ned had conceived Jon with some fisherman's daughter, Jon would be older than Robb, noticeably, but he isn't. Ned also would have conceived Jon BEFORE he married Catelyn, in which case, he never would have had to admit he committed adultery, because he wouldn't have. The reason the adultery angle exists at all is because Robb is older than Jon officially, and if Robb is older than Jon, then Ned had to have committed adultery if he is in fact Jon's father. If Jon is older than Robb, then the adultery angle makes no sense because there was never any adultery. Like I said, the fisherman's daughter story can be tossed out pretty much immediately just by virtue of it conflicting with the known timeline of events.Why do you automatically assume that the same wet nurse Catelyn found in Winterfell was Wylla? I've never thought that, nor have I ever argued it. If I'm Ned, I keep Wylla way the hell away from Winterfell, because she knows too much. If Wylla did schlep all the way to Winterfell, she also at some point had to get all the way back down to Starfall. The far more logical conclusion is that she stayed in Dorne and Ned just got another wet nurse. I understand that more than one of them exists at any given time. Eddard never says he cheated on Catelyn. His comments are ambiguous and may just mean he was married when Jon was born, not when Jon was conceived.And it is never stated where or when Eddard left Wylla the fisherman's daughter except that it was some time after the rebellion started, some time after she got pregnant, and some time before Jon was born. That indicates that he left her with a bastard in her belly any time from before Eddard married Catelyn up to several months after Eddard married Catelyn.Probably, he left her somewhere in the Riverlands, she went from there to Winterfell and she never set foot in Dorne until Eddard sent her to Starfall after Jon was weaned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Eddard never says he cheated on Catelyn. His comments are ambiguous and may just mean he was married when Jon was born, not when Jon was conceived.I think you're underestimating these people's knowledge of where babies come from. The way both Ned and Catelyn think of the events points to Ned having sex with a woman after he married Catelyn. His comments are only ambiguous if you're deadset on a bullshit fisherman's daughter story that is so obviously wrong it baffles me that anyone still publicly takes it seriously.And it is never stated where or when Eddard left Wylla the fisherman's daughter except that it was some time after the rebellion started, some time after she got pregnant, and some time before Jon was born. That indicates that he left her with a bastard in her belly any time from before Eddard married Catelyn up to several months after Eddard married Catelyn.Actually it is explicitly stated where and when Ned allegedly left the fisherman's-daughter-who-absolutely-nothing-suggests-was-named-Wylla. Borrell pretty unambiguously says that Ned "left her" after she helped him get across, and that the bastard she allegedly conceived with him was conceived that night. As in, she helped Ned across, he paid her and left. That's it. And again, given the timeline, whatever baby she may have had, if it was even Ned's, it wouldn't and couldn't have been Jon.Probably, he left her somewhere in the Riverlands, she went from there to Winterfell and she never set foot in Dorne until Eddard sent her to Starfall after Jon was weaned.And why would Ned send her to Starfall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonfish Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 I think one of the problems here is that you are thinking of the difference between two places on the Bite like its the difference between Tokyo and Madrid. If you look at the map, you'll see it is more like the difference between Gibralter and Morocco. What? Not even close. The Strait of Gibraltar is about 9 miles at its narrowest. White Harbor sits at about 300 miles from the Vale, and 200 miles from the Sisters, using the size of the Wall as a scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alia of the knife Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 Crackpot: Wylla Manderly is the twin sister of Jon.She dyes her hair because it's really silver, and she was named Wylla in honor of the woman who helped to smuggle her out along with Jon. She also speaks her mind like Arya and Lyanna without minding the consequences. :ph34r:Okay, going back to my reilsling......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted August 30, 2013 Share Posted August 30, 2013 What? Not even close. The Strait of Gibraltar is about 9 miles at its narrowest. White Harbor sits at about 300 miles from the Vale, and 200 miles from the Sisters, using the size of the Wall as a scale.Stop making sense, damn it.Crackpot: Wylla Manderly is the twin sister of Jon.She dyes her hair because it's really silver, and she was named Wylla for the woman who helped to smuggle her out along with Jon. She also speaks her mind like Arya and Lyanna without minding the consequences. :ph34r:Okay, going back to my reilsling.........This actually, crackpot as it is, still makes substantially more sense than the fucking nonsense fisherman's daughter story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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