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R+L=J v 59


Stubby

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Stop making sense, damn it.

This actually, crackpot as it is, still makes substantially more sense than the fucking nonsense fisherman's daughter story.

And she's the right age- fifteen.

(One of my crackpots have to pan out). :laugh:

Can I offer you a Riesling?

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Agree with you both on the Batman.

When I suggested to my husband he give Ben a chance, he basically had the same reaction that you had to Ruby. :laugh:

LMFAO, he must really be against Ben as Batman huh?

I'm not sure why Ed Skrein was replaced. I don't know if I'm great at judging actors performances, but he seemed alright to me. Btw, did you know they also recast the role of Tommen? It's going to be one of the Lannister boys – Martyn or Willem – that Karstark murdered. :ninja: - Alia

ETA: Link for the Tommen recasting story.

As for the second paragraph, this is a common mistake that people who don't know, or understand, how to construct arguments make. Like I said the other day, it's not a surprise that a decent number of the people who doubt R+L=J are the same ones who don't know how to forum logical arguments, or don't know what red herrings are. Because when you can correctly identify these things – logical arguments, red herrings, etc. – it helps you understand just how strong the case is for R+L=J, and how weak the counter case is.

Amen, and no I didn't know Tommen was getting replaced! Although I actually liked the two Lannister boys that were killed off and I highly doubt the average viewer will even notice the switch. I bet the original Tommen actor is headed towards the TOJ this very moment! :laugh:

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LMFAO, he must really be against Ben as Batman huh?

Amen, and no I didn't know Tommen was getting replaced! Although I actually liked the two Lannister boys that were killed off and I highly doubt the average viewer will even notice the switch. I bet the original Tommen actor is headed towards the TOJ this very moment! :laugh:

To be cast as Aegon, I take it. :cool4:

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LMFAO, he must really be against Ben as Batman huh?

Amen, and no I didn't know Tommen was getting replaced! Although I actually liked the two Lannister boys that were killed off and I highly doubt the average viewer will even notice the switch. I bet the original Tommen actor is headed towards the TOJ this very moment! :laugh:

LMFAO, he must really be against Ben as Batman huh?

Amen, and no I didn't know Tommen was getting replaced! Although I actually liked the two Lannister boys that were killed off and I highly doubt the average viewer will even notice the switch. I bet the original Tommen actor is headed towards the TOJ this very moment! :laugh:

LMFAO, he must really be against Ben as Batman huh?

Amen, and no I didn't know Tommen was getting replaced! Although I actually liked the two Lannister boys that were killed off and I highly doubt the average viewer will even notice the switch. I bet the original Tommen actor is headed towards the TOJ this very moment! :laugh:

Like Stannis, you can almost hear his teeth grind at the thought, though we LOVED him in "The Town."

Edit: Woops, don't know what happened here, so time to put up the wine and head to bed. :drunk:

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It brings me joy, actually, to see people taking the fisherman's daughter story seriously. I chuckle to myself and think, "Well done, George. Well done."

I've heard it said that herring isn't palatable for those with more refined tastes.

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It brings me joy, actually, to see people taking the fisherman's daughter story seriously. I chuckle to myself and think, "Well done, George. Well done."

"They fell for it." But really, I think we're meant to see it for the transparent nonsense gossip it is. Like I don't think he wrote it thinking anyone would read it and think, "Jon's mother, solved." Which just makes this situation that much sadder.

I've heard it said that herring isn't palatable for those with more refined tastes.

Indeed. I mean come on — it's a fisherman's daughter. Fisherman. Fish. Herring. Red herring. I can practically see his shit-eating grin when he wrote it.

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According to the "official" story, Robb is older than Jon. Robb was conceived, according to Catelyn, on their wedding night. If Ned had conceived Jon with some fisherman's daughter, Jon would be older than Robb, noticeably, but he isn't. Ned also would have conceived Jon BEFORE he married Catelyn, in which case, he never would have had to admit he committed adultery, because he wouldn't have. The reason the adultery angle exists at all is because Robb is older than Jon officially, and if Robb is older than Jon, then Ned had to have committed adultery if he is in fact Jon's father. If Jon is older than Robb, then the adultery angle makes no sense because there was never any adultery. Like I said, the fisherman's daughter story can be tossed out pretty much immediately just by virtue of it conflicting with the known timeline of events.

Why do you automatically assume that the same wet nurse Catelyn found in Winterfell was Wylla? I've never thought that, nor have I ever argued it. If I'm Ned, I keep Wylla way the hell away from Winterfell, because she knows too much. If Wylla did schlep all the way to Winterfell, she also at some point had to get all the way back down to Starfall. The far more logical conclusion is that she stayed in Dorne and Ned just got another wet nurse. I understand that more than one of them exists at any given time.

So you're saying Wylla is significant to Jon because you believe she delivered him at the TOJ. A theory that is all speculation and has no supporting evidience whatsoever?

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So you're saying Wylla is significant to Jon because you believe she delivered him at the TOJ. A theory that is all speculation and has no supporting evidience whatsoever?

It actually makes quite a bit of intuitive sense, far more so than any bunk you and/or Ruby (I'm guessing one of you might be the other's sock account ...) have been slinging.

Wylla is employed at Starfall in the service of the Daynes. Arthur Dayne ends up protecting a very pregnant Lyanna Stark at the Tower of Joy, but they need a midwife and a wet nurse for her. Arthur needs someone he can trust, so he retrieves his own family servant from Starfall and brings her to the Tower. Wylla helps deliver Jon and acts as his wet nurse. Ned and his men show up. Ned finds Lyanna's body and THEY — as in, Wylla and Howland — find him with her body. This is crucial because at this point, everyone but Ned and Howland should be dead. So someone else had to be at the Tower, or else there's no they.

Ned has to cover for Jon's identity. Wylla, who helped deliver him and has nursed him, feels bonded to him and wants to protect him. She agrees to pretend she's his mother and she and Ned work out a story saying as much. Wylla goes back to Starfall, where she eventually nurses Edric Dayne (so he and Jon are milk brothers) and propagates the fiction that she's Jon's mother. Ned takes Jon back up to Winterfell.

So yes, Wylla is significant to Jon's story — she protected him from the very early stages of his life. But she is not his mother.

I am still waiting for anything — anything at all — that points to this fisherman's daughter being named Wylla, let alone her being the Wylla.

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Amen.

Also, here is this:

Michael Huisman who plays in "Nashville," and "Treme" has been cast in a secret role for the fourth season of aGoT.

Could it be a flashback of Brandon Stark? :ph34r:

http://tvline.com/2013/08/28/game-of-thrones-season-4-cast-michiel-huisman/

I doubt it, they are saying he is replacing another actor. I see people sayign Tommen is being replaced. Therefore this much older man will be playing a 10 year old as HBO wants an older edgier version of Tommen, he will also be a vampire. Or maybe the guy playing Darrio, or someone from the Brotherhood. But no Tommen seems the best fit.

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So you're saying Wylla is significant to Jon because you believe she delivered him at the TOJ. A theory that is all speculation and has no supporting evidience whatsoever?

Ruby, it's disingenuous to say that there is no supporting evidence for Jon's birth when the entire theory is based on evidence of what took place at the TOJ. Also, of course Wylla is significant to Jon's story. If she was there as a midwife or wetnurse, she's one who knows the truth. At the very least, she played a part in deceiving the country about who Jon's mother is considering she told Ned Dayne (or did not deny) that she was Jon's mother.

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It actually makes quite a bit of intuitive sense, far more so than any bunk you and/or Ruby (I'm guessing one of you might be the other's sock account ...) have been slinging.

Wylla is employed at Starfall in the service of the Daynes. Arthur Dayne ends up protecting a very pregnant Lyanna Stark at the Tower of Joy, but they need a midwife and a wet nurse for her. Arthur needs someone he can trust, so he retrieves his own family servant from Starfall and brings her to the Tower. Wylla helps deliver Jon and acts as his wet nurse. Ned and his men show up. Ned finds Lyanna's body and THEY — as in, Wylla and Howland — find him with her body. This is crucial because at this point, everyone but Ned and Howland should be dead. So someone else had to be at the Tower, or else there's no they.

Ned has to cover for Jon's identity. Wylla, who helped deliver him and has nursed him, feels bonded to him and wants to protect him. She agrees to pretend she's his mother and she and Ned work out a story saying as much. Wylla goes back to Starfall, where she eventually nurses Edric Dayne (so he and Jon are milk brothers) and propagates the fiction that she's Jon's mother. Ned takes Jon back up to Winterfell.

So yes, Wylla is significant to Jon's story — she protected him from the very early stages of his life. But she is not his mother.

I am still waiting for anything — anything at all — that points to this fisherman's daughter being named Wylla, let alone her being the Wylla.

House Dayne is also significant to this story as the story they tell Edric contradicts anything a normal family would do. They say Jon is Wylla's but say Ned was in love with Ashara, and that Ned is the father of Jon. No way you keep the woman who is one of the biggest reasons for Ashara's suicide as a wet nurse unless it's a lie. They have to be complicit in something and it's not protecting Wylla. Although as a nobody that is her greatest protection.

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House Dayne is also significant to this story as the story they tell Edric contradicts anything a normal family would do. They say Jon is Wylla's but say Ned was in love with Ashara, and that Ned is the father of Jon. No way you keep the woman who is one of the biggest reasons for Ashara's suicide as a wet nurse unless it's a lie. They have to be complicit in something and it's not protecting Wylla. Although as a nobody that is her greatest protection.

:agree: This pretty much perfectly sums up, the shadyness of the whole Starfall, Ashara, Ned, and Wylla ordeal, well said.

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These are excellent ideas!

What do you think the relationship is between Lady Wylla Manderly and the Wylla that Lord Eddard talks about to King Robert in the Winterfell crypts?

I've been looking at the idea Wylla is the name of the fisherman's daughter that Davos learns about in Dance with Dragons. The theory goes that Wylla is a name used by the Manderlys, who are the most powerful family living in the area around the Bite. So people in that area might use Manderly names for their children. The fisherman plied his trade in and around the Bite, so it shouldn't surprise us if his daughter was named Wylla.

So Eddard got together with Wylla-the-fisherman's daughter early in Robert's Rebellion. She traveled with him until she started showing signs of pregnancy. Eddard then left her with a bastard in her belly and a bag of silver and told her to head for Winterfell. He went on with his army.

Wylla went back to Winterfell and by the time Lady Catelyn arrived she was all set up and passing herself off as Jon's wetnurse. After he saw Catelyn's reaction to Jon, Eddard realized he had to send Wylla as far away as he could, so he set her up with new employment as a wetnurse to his friends in House Dayne. He's very afraid that Catelyn will find out that he brought his mistress home from the war, so he lies about Wylla being the wetnurse and never tells Jon that his mother was right there in Winterfell with him when he was a baby. Lord Edric Dayne is telling the truth when he tells Arya that Wylla has been at Starfall since before he (Edric) was born because Edric was born a few years after Wylla got there from Winterfell.

If this is right, Wylla Manderly's name is there to get us thinking that Wylla is a name used around the Bite. But if you have another idea about what we ought to make of the name Wylla Manderly I'm very interested.

Oh dear, this ummm, wow. Ok.

Lets try a little logic.

1. Eddard Stark to the fishermans Daughter with him to? Eddard Stark sent her to Winterfell where she lived with Jon till Catlyne arrived which was well after the war and After Eddard returned to Winterfell. So he set her up for over a year at Winterfell she had his baby and Jon was there for months and nobody noticed this?

2. He sent his mistress to Winterfell? Really?

3. After Catlyne arrived he sent Wylla off to his good friends the Daynes? So she could find employment there. So he was cool with his Mistress at Winterfell till Cat arrived but then needed to find her a job far away? A job? One of the richest most powerful men in the country needed to find a job for Jon's mother who he supposedly loved very much. Couldn't just set her up in a place considering he is the equivalent of a trillionaire, he owns half of Westeros. His good friends the Daynes? How did that conversation go? "Sorry about Arthur and Ashara here is a painful remainder of my issues, laters."

The Daynes are not keeping the secret for Ned, they are keeping it for Jon. Ned is a painful reminder to one of the worst moments in Dayne history.

Now if you said Arthur hooked up with Lyanna and Rhaegar was trying to protect his best friend and it turned into a giant mess I could of batted the idea around a little for shits and giggles. But really Wylle, the most obvious ploy in the books? 2 Words, Grasping, straws.

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:agree: This pretty much perfectly sums up, the shadyness of the whole Starfall, Ashara, Ned, and Wylla ordeal, well said.

You know it was months of Jon isn't fire proof and Dany is and now Wylla.

Jon you need to check your future wife, cause she be trippin.

You can blame Alia for this, she started it now you two are practically engaged.

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Ruby, it's disingenuous to say that there is no supporting evidence for Jon's birth when the entire theory is based on evidence of what took place at the TOJ. Also, of course Wylla is significant to Jon's story. If she was there as a midwife or wetnurse, she's one who knows the truth. At the very least, she played a part in deceiving the country about who Jon's mother is considering she told Ned Dayne (or did not deny) that she was Jon's mother.

Wasn't that poster named Robb.

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