R+L=J v 59

[Dead Wolf]

To the fisherman's daughter, it is never actually stated when Ned left her. Borrell's exact words are "They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow she named him, after Arryn." The last part is strange, because why in seven hells should a fisherman's daughter name her child after Lord Arryn, who probably never even visited the Sisters as it's mentioned that the Eyrie's grasp on the Sisters was tenuous at best and the islands are really only loyal to themselves. Ned named Jon, so if the fisherman's daughter was Wylla, either he told her to name the child Jon after finding out she was pregnant, or was with her when Jon was born.

[Ruby Chevrolet]

Because it pertains to the current discussion, I thought I'd repost what I had to say in v.45 about Wylla and the (red) Herring, er... fisherman's daughter:

I still am :blink:

If I didn't say it at the time, I enjoyed reading this post the first time and I enjoyed reading it again here. Thank you for taking my post seriously and for giving a well-reasoned response.

I'll respond to a few of your points in the same spirit.

First, Ned's conversation with Robert about Wylla seems pretty clear on two points:

• His "relationship" with Wylla was brief
  
  
  "She must been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour"Robert's statement implies a fling, not a sustained relationship or camp follower.
  

I interpret this differently. Robert says he is surprised that Eddard had a fling, even if it was a short one. Eddard does not say either way if it was short or long.

• Ned was married when he had the supposed "relationship" with Wylla
  
  
  "I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sights of gods and men...I had taken her to wife. She was carrying my child."
  

This is ambiguous. Did the "dishonor" happen when Jon was conceived or when he was born? If it was when he was conceived, Robb is older than Jon. If it was when he was born, Jon is older than Robb.

The only other mention we get of Wylla is from Edric Dayne

"Jon Snow's mother...She's served us for years and years. Since before I was born."

Conclusion we could draw based on this: about eight or nine months prior to the Sack of KL (based on the SSM fixing Jon's birthdate, Catelyn's observation of his age relative to Robb and Ned's statements quoted above) Ned had a fling with a peasant woman of unknown origin who then gave her son Jon Snow to his father, who was seized with the inexplicable desire to parade the proof of his dishonor before his wife and House, and went to or remained in Dorne to serve House Dayne. Not a hint of a connection to the Vale or White Harbor.

I've given my reasons why I think Wylla is both the fisherman's daughter and Lord Edric's wetnurse, so I won't go over them again. There are a number of reasons why Eddard would bring Jon back to Winterfell. He is one of four children, and two of them are dead. The only other living Starks are his little brother Benjen, who may already be on his way to the Night's Watch, and Robb, who (like Brandon and the other Lords' sons who were killed by Aerys) might not live to inherit the title. The Seven Kingdoms have seen decades of civil war and the most recent one saw the overthrow of a dynasty and the deaths of many lords and knights. Having a second son under Winterfell's protection sounds like a good idea to me.

**Of course, we could also read between the lines and note the confusion in Edric Dayne's story: Ned was simultaneously in love with Ashara Dayne and fathering Jon Snow on Wylla- hardly the behavior of a man who later professes his disgust with himself to his friend Robert. We could also note his stiffness and refusal to discuss the matter with his best friend. We are given the impression he has only ever provided this information to Robert out of the necessity of explaining Jon's origin. This has all been discussed here and will continue to be.

We should not think that this kind of behavior was uncommon in Westeros. Despite what Eddard said to King Robert, Robb Stark is the only one who actually acts like there would be something wrong with that kind of thing.

Of the FD, we know that she originated in the area of the Fingers

"To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite... the fisherman died, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down."

Lord Borrell continues

"They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow she named him, after Arryn."

This is puzzling. Why name the babe after Ned's foster father? Also, while the surname Snow seems to favor her originating on the north side of the Bite, by the logic of equating names with regional origin, the child being named after the Lord of the Eyrie favors the Fingers. If Jon Arryn weren't specified, the name Jon itself gives us no clues: a search of the wiki gives us Jons across the Seven Kingdoms. It is not a regional name, and in fact seems as common as "John" IRL.

Wylla Manderley belongs to a northern family with origins in the Reach. We have no other Wyllas on the text. The characters with "Wy" at the beginning of their names are mostly from White Harbor or the Reach. There are exceptions: men named Wyl in the North, Riverlands and Vale and Wynafrei Whent of the Riverlands. There is a place called Wyl located on the North end of the Boneway. It does not appear that a regional interpretation of the name Wylla, or Wy- names in general clearly favors any one area.

Then we have the timing of the FD. Given the interpretation suggested by Ned's exchange with Robert, how are we to reconcile the FD story with Wylla? Lord Borrell says "he left her... with a bastard in her belly." It seems clear that Ned left the girl before the child was born. In other words, the birth of the FD's son would be about six months earlier than Jon Snow's if the conception occurred during the time of Ned's escape from the Vale and Ned was long gone when it happened. If, as has been suggested, the girl followed Ned around for months during the war, are we supposed to believe that, in addition to willfully dishonoring himself for an extended period of time, he took the time in the middle of the war to return her to her home and "left her" pregnant, months after he was last reported being there? If she was the Wylla who landed in Dorne, he could hardly be said to have "left her with a bastard in her belly"-- Ned (supposedly) took the bastard of Wylla with him. Imo, Lord Borrell's statement implies that the FD's child was born in and remained in the region of the Bite. The camp follower theory (in order to get the FD's Jon to the proper age) also supposes that Ned had this woman in tow when he married Catelyn (Or had her stashed somewhere?) this seems like grasping at straws to me.

It's much more likely the FD is a true red herring and was already pregnant when she met Ned. Thus the statement about him "leaving her" with a bastard is explained.

Wylla is another case altogether. There have been many discussions about her and her role in previous iterations of this thread. I wonder how many of those the proponents of the "Wylla is the Fisherman's Daughter is Jon Snow's mother" theory have read? Or is Ashara the mother? Maybe all three are the same... I have to confess I'm very confused by some of the arguments I've seen here lately.

In the end, what Edric's story does is it reinforces other things we already know. There are only three people in all of the five novels who identify Jon's mother. One is Eddard, he says the mother is Wylla and does not say where she is from or where she went. The next is Edric, he says its Wylla. He doesn't say where she is from but he does say she is at Starfall now. The third is Lord Godric, who knows first-hand exactly how Eddard got from the Vale to the North and who says Jon's mother is a fisherman's daughter from the Fingers who met Eddard during that trip. He doesn't say how long they were together or where the woman is now.

These three stories are easy to reconcile if you say that all three men are talking about the same woman, her name is Wylla, she started out in the Fingers but after her father died and she gave her son to Eddard she moved away to Starfall and made a new home for herself.

[Jory Cassel]

To the fisherman's daughter, it is never actually stated when Ned left her. Borrell's exact words are "They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow she named him, after Arryn." The last part is strange, because why in seven hells should a fisherman's daughter name her child after Lord Arryn, who probably never even visited the Sisters as it's mentioned that the Eyrie's grasp on the Sisters was tenuous at best and the islands are really only loyal to themselves. Ned named Jon, so if the fisherman's daughter was Wylla, either he told her to name the child Jon after finding out she was pregnant, or was with her when Jon was born.

...because Borell assumes that Ned is the father and it was well-known that Jon Arryn was his foster-father. Try again.

[Jon Icefyre]

You know it was months of Jon isn't fire proof and Dany is and now Wylla.

Jon you need to check your future wife, cause she be trippin.

You can blame Alia for this, she started it now you two are practically engaged.

Somewhere in a far away TV land, Al Bundy is reading this and shaking his head........

[Dead Wolf]

Ruby, it's disingenuous to say that there is no supporting evidence for Jon's birth when the entire theory is based on evidence of what took place at the TOJ. Also, of course Wylla is significant to Jon's story. If she was there as a midwife or wetnurse, she's one who knows the truth. At the very least, she played a part in deceiving the country about who Jon's mother is considering she told Ned Dayne (or did not deny) that she was Jon's mother.

Thats me you quoted. Ruby Chevrolet and I are two different ppl

[WhiteOwl18]

Is it possible Varys knows about Jon's Parentage, but is keeping quiet because of his plans for Aegon.

I could see one of his little children bringing supplies to Lyanna during pregnancy.

Or he doesnt see him as a threat to Aegon, since he is in the NW.

I don't think Varys has the slightest idea. And, if you think about it, him not knowing makes the revelation much more delightfull: honorable, upstanding Ned Stark, who everyone thought was terrible at playing the game, was able to make a move that no one saw coming, including Varys, one of the best players! I can't wait to see his reaction when he finds out!

[Alia of the knife]

Somewhere in a far away TV land, Al Bundy is reading this and shaking his head........

:D

[Alia of the knife]

Is it possible Varys knows about Jon's Parentage, but is keeping quiet because of his plans for Aegon.

I could see one of his little children bringing supplies to Lyanna during pregnancy.

Or he doesnt see him as a threat to Aegon, since he is in the NW.

I don't think Varys knows.

I think Rhaegar would have been of all people, wary of him and took pains to hide any of his doings from him.

Having said that, I don't think Varys likes, or dislikes anyone, (with the exception of LF), but is a true believer in his mission. I speculate his mission is undermining the Targaryens because he truly believes the Blackfyres are stronger and better for the realm.

I think Varys is telling the truth when he says he does what he does for the realm. I think he likes Ned, but thinks Ned is not good for the realm because he isn't adept at politics. I think he knows the general whereabouts of Arya, but will never tell- unless it suits his needs in the future.

Rhaegar, who probably would have done much to restore Targaryen credibility needed to be gotten rid of in order to drive the Blackfyre cause. You hear similar sentiments about such things in his conversation with Illyrio, which ironically, Arya overheard.

To this point I have always wondered about a young man named Wyl who was a member of Ned's guard that went from WF to KL. Sadly he was killed by the Lannisters in the ambush outside Chataya's.

You always bring up the most interesting aspects of the story.

I had forgotten this, but I wonder if he could have been Wyllas natural son with her actual husband? I wonder if all she did for Ned, he gave her son a position in his guard?

It's not a lot perhaps, but for a member of the small folk who may have only ever been a farmer, holding a position with the Warden of the North within his guard would have been a step up I would imagine.

I do think of all the heroes in the book in terms of self-sacrifice, Wylla will be right up there with Ned. :crying:

[Ygrain]

I really don't care who Jon's wet nurse was at Winterfell, nor do I think it's all that important. However, someone correct me if I'm wrong, I think women can lactate indefinitely so long as they at least semi-regularl mammary stimulation occurs. One need not have recently had a child in order to produce milk. Most literature I've ever read indicates that it's suckling that induces lactation, though hormones associated with pregnancy help begin lactation initially. I've known adoptive mothers who breastfeed without hormone assistance.

Yep. No suckling, no milk. Once the lactation kicks in after the delivery, it works on the demand-supply principle, as long as you wish. If Wylla was a professional wetnurse prior ToJ, there is no telling how old her own child might have been. However, for her supposed affair with Ned to be convincing, I presume that she was still quite young and so was her child, provided that it did not die.

To the fisherman's daughter, it is never actually stated when Ned left her. Borrell's exact words are "They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow she named him, after Arryn." The last part is strange, because why in seven hells should a fisherman's daughter name her child after Lord Arryn, who probably never even visited the Sisters as it's mentioned that the Eyrie's grasp on the Sisters was tenuous at best and the islands are really only loyal to themselves. Ned named Jon, so if the fisherman's daughter was Wylla, either he told her to name the child Jon after finding out she was pregnant, or was with her when Jon was born.

No. Per GRRM, Ned was the one who named Jon. And he definitely wasn't with her when her child was born, he was busy fighting a war elsewhere - or rather, he was busy around Storms' End and ToJ, because this is when Jon was born, per GRRM again (approximately within a month from the Sack of KL). This time minus 9 months, the fisherman's daughter was no longer in Ned's company, as neither our dear Sisters gossiper nor the Winterfellians know a thing about Ned travelling with a bedwarmer in tow.

- Oh, and once again, remind me: what would be that most grave reason why Ned never tells Jon the name of his mother if she is just a fisherman's daughter?

I interpret this differently. Robert says he is surprised that Eddard had a fling, even if it was a short one. Eddard does not say either way if it was short or long.

Apparently, the two of them had spoken about Jon before and Robert knows that it was a short affair.

This is ambiguous. Did the "dishonor" happen when Jon was conceived or when he was born? If it was when he was conceived, Robb is older than Jon. If it was when he was born, Jon is older than Robb.

Ned dishonoured himself in the eyes of gods, i.e. he broke his vows. Marital vows are broken by an act of infidelity. The birth of a child conceived prior marriage does not affect the validity of the vows.

The third is Lord Godric, who knows first-hand exactly how Eddard got from the Vale to the North and who says Jon's mother is a fisherman's daughter from the Fingers who met Eddard during that trip. He doesn't say how long they were together or where the woman is now.

Gosh, I didn't know that Godric was taken along for a ride, to know first-hand... oh, wait, he wasn't, so his info is, in fact, second hand at best. And, since he was not there, his information whether Eddard and FMD were making out or not, it's not a fact but an opinion.

[FrozenFire3]

- Oh, and once again, remind me: what would be that most grave reason why Ned never tells Jon the name of his mother if she is just a fisherman's daughter?

Good luck on that ;) The best I got is Ned is a disfunctional father and Jon should stop whining about his mum's identity and be thankful his 'dad' didn't kick him out. Or something of the sort LOL

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Yep. No suckling, no milk. Once the lactation kicks in after the delivery, it works on the demand-supply principle, as long as you wish. If Wylla was a professional wetnurse prior ToJ, there is no telling how old her own child might have been. However, for her supposed affair with Ned to be convincing, I presume that she was still quite young and so was her child, provided that it did not die.

No. Per GRRM, Ned was the one who named Jon. And he definitely wasn't with her when her child was born, he was busy fighting a war elsewhere - or rather, he was busy around Storms' End and ToJ, because this is when Jon was born, per GRRM again (approximately within a month from the Sack of KL). This time minus 9 months, the fisherman's daughter was no longer in Ned's company, as neither our dear Sisters gossiper nor the Winterfellians know a thing about Ned travelling with a bedwarmer in tow.

- Oh, and once again, remind me: what would be that most grave reason why Ned never tells Jon the name of his mother if she is just a fisherman's daughter?

Apparently, the two of them had spoken about Jon before and Robert knows that it was a short affair.

Ned dishonoured himself in the eyes of gods, i.e. he broke his vows. Marital vows are broken by an act of infidelity. The birth of a child conceived prior marriage does not affect the validity of the vows.

Gosh, I didn't know that Godric was taken along for a ride, to know first-hand... oh, wait, he wasn't, so his info is, in fact, second hand at best. And, since he was not there, his information whether Eddard and FMD were making out or not, it's not a fact but an opinion.

Correct on all points-- five in a row, that's a BINGO! And just to add to the last-- the quote from Lord Godric was "they say..." indicating second or more likely third-hand information. Not personal knowledge.

Good luck on that ;) The best I got is Ned is a disfunctional father and Jon should stop whining about his mum's identity and be thankful his 'dad' didn't kick him out. Or something of the sort LOL

:lol:

[Ygrain]

Correct on all points-- five in a row, that's a BINGO! And just to add to the last-- the quote from Lord Godric was "they say..." indicating second or more likely third-hand information. Not personal knowledge.

Lol, how much do I win? :D

As for the latter - Lord Godric having first-hand information about Ned's sex life sounds rather disturbing.

[Zorpack]

Ned fought to bring down the Targs, giving the throne to one makes no sense because the Baratheons are the royal family now and Stannis is Robert's heir

But Jon is part Stark.

[Jon Icefyre]

Is it possible Varys knows about Jon's Parentage, but is keeping quiet because of his plans for Aegon.

I could see one of his little children bringing supplies to Lyanna during pregnancy.

Or he doesnt see him as a threat to Aegon, since he is in the NW.

I don't think Varys has the slightest idea. And, if you think about it, him not knowing makes the revelation much more delightfull: honorable, upstanding Ned Stark, who everyone thought was terrible at playing the game, was able to make a move that no one saw coming, including Varys, one of the best players! I can't wait to see his reaction when he finds out!

Ya I think it really depends on how you look at it, and which YG/Varys theory you're leaning more towards. For instance, if you're a believer of the Varys secretly being a Blackfyre loyalist/Faegon actually secretly being a Blackfyre theory like I am, then no, Varys probably doesn't know about R+L=J otherwise he probably would've attempted to have Jon Snow eliminated long before the 5th book in order to clear the way for Faegon by taking out any real male Targaryen heirs that could possible challenge Faegon's claim.

[WhiteOwl18]

Ya I think it really depends on how you look at it, and which YG/Varys theory you're leaning more towards. For instance, if you're a believer of the Varys secretly being a Blackfyre loyalist/Faegon actually secretly being a Blackfyre theory like I am, then no, Varys probably doesn't know about R+L=J otherwise he probably would've attempted to have Jon Snow eliminated long before the 5th book in order to clear the way for Faegon by taking out any real male Targaryen heirs that could possible challenge Faegon's claim.

Exactly. :agree:

[Zorpack]

Indeed :

"He would say that even a million Dothraki are no threat to the realm, so long as they remain on the other side of the narrow sea," Ned replied calmly. "The barbarians have no ships. They hate and fear the open sea."

The king shifted uncomfortably in his saddle. "Perhaps. There are ships to be had in the Free Cities, though. I tell you, Ned, I do not like this marriage. There are still those in the Seven Kingdoms who call me Usurper. Do you forget how many houses fought for Targaryen in the war? They bide their time for now, but give them half a chance, they will murder me in my bed, and my sons with me. If the beggar king crosses with a Dothraki horde at his back, the traitors will join him."

So ya Robert clearly believes and fears that there is still a good portion of Westeros that don't fully accept him as their king and actually still secretly prefer the Targaryens as the ruling monarch over the Baratheons, and that they're just waiting patiently for their chance to strike against the Baratheon monarch by rallying to a Targ that returns to Westeros.....

This is kind of what I was trying to say in my last post. Even thought Ned fought for Robert to take the throne I know there are Targ loyalists that would be happy to have a Stark-Targ on the throne especially since the majority of the Targ supports would be in the South and the Stark supports in the North.

[Jon Icefyre]

Stumbled upon a pretty decent short Rhaegar tribute on Youtube:

[Ruby Chevrolet]

No. Per GRRM, Ned was the one who named Jon. And he definitely wasn't with her when her child was born, he was busy fighting a war elsewhere - or rather, he was busy around Storms' End and ToJ, because this is when Jon was born, per GRRM again (approximately within a month from the Sack of KL). This time minus 9 months, the fisherman's daughter was no longer in Ned's company, as neither our dear Sisters gossiper nor the Winterfellians know a thing about Ned travelling with a bedwarmer in tow.

Mr. Martin said Eddard "probably" named Jon. In other words, he did not answer the question. But that doesn't matter, since my theory is that Eddard told Wylla "if it's a boy I want to name him Jon" and then, when he was born, Wylla complied and named him Jon. There's no contradiction between what Mr. Martin said and what Godric said.

And it seems a little disrespectful to Mr. Martin to say that he would take the time to write this story in the novel, make it a believable answer to one of the mysteries he has crafted, and then give interviews where he tells you its not true. That would just be wierd.

- Oh, and once again, remind me: what would be that most grave reason why Ned never tells Jon the name of his mother if she is just a fisherman's daughter?

There are two answers to this. One is that he does not want Catelyn to find out that the supposed wetnurse was really his mistress. Why would he go to all the trouble to hide this from his wife only to turn around and tell a young child?

The other is that he does not owe Jon any explanations. Lord Eddard is a harsh man. "WInter is coming" and all of that. He gives orders to his wife and expects her to obey without question. He lets people think he killed Arthur Dayne in single combat to enhance his reputation even though it isn't true. He chops people's heads off in front of little children and makes them watch the blood spray all over the place.

He has a bit of a soft spot for his daughters but he doesn't think he has to answer his bastard's questions about his former lovers.

Apparently, the two of them had spoken about Jon before and Robert knows that it was a short affair.

I don't think he told Robert much at all, beyond the name Wylla. I think Robert is fishing for information, not retelling the story.

Ned dishonoured himself in the eyes of gods, i.e. he broke his vows. Marital vows are broken by an act of infidelity. The birth of a child conceived prior marriage does not affect the validity of the vows.

Why do we think that dishonoring means breaking marriage vows? Having a bastard born while his wif was pregnant with another child would be pretty dishonorable, don't you think? That would mean he had two different women pregnant at the same time.

Gosh, I didn't know that Godric was taken along for a ride, to know first-hand... oh, wait, he wasn't, so his info is, in fact, second hand at best. And, since he was not there, his information whether Eddard and FMD were making out or not, it's not a fact but an opinion.

It is sort of annoying to see my post distorted so that the distorted version can be ridiculed. I think you know that I said Godric knows first hand how Eddard traveled, which is true because he came through Godric's hall and they had a conversation while Eddard was there. That does not mean Godric was present when Jon was conceived or that he traveled to the North with Eddard and Wylla.

My theory is that Godric was there when Eddard and Wylla came to Sisterton and he was there when they left, together, to go to the North. He knows this first hand. The reason Godric says "they say" Eddard left her with a bastard in her belly is that Eddard left her some time after she got him back to the North. That is the part he only knows second hand.

[Ygrain]

Stumbled upon a pretty decent short Rhaegar tribute on Youtube:

That's ingenious! They used the Polish TV series The Hexer (better known these days as The Witcher, by the game) and Michal Zebrowski starring as Geralt of Rivia! The series was rather meh, but, the guy... /drool/ I wonder who the actress is, she does have Lyanna vibes.

[Jon Icefyre]

That's ingenious! They used the Polish TV series The Hexer (better known these days as The Witcher, by the game) and Michal Zebrowski starring as Geralt of Rivia! The series was rather meh, but, the guy... /drool/ I wonder who the actress is, she does have Lyanna vibes.

Ya that video had a bit of everything, Ser Barristan's praise, Lyanna's fierceness, I'm pretty sure Aragorn was suppose to be Robert, and that last scene seemed to represent Lyanna waiting for Rhaegar's return to the TOJ, with Ser Jorah's words about Rhaegar's death playing in the background. Simply perfect!