R+L=J v 59

[Jon Icefyre]

If it eases your mind, I think stubborn someone who refuses to reason or discuss, not the one who defends a viewpoint.

Jon's fate is not a throne, he's one of the dragon's heads. The very night Danaerys gave up Rhaego: "She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames." She found a new destiny, tied to Jon and Tyrion, None of them will sit the IT, but they'll defeat the Others.

I'm seing some think like Tywin Lannister. Haven't you noticed who is the enemy? We were introduced to them in the first prologue.

Smh, which is why I've given multiple page long posts on these threads detailing why Jon becoming king of the North is the best way he'll be able to help the NW defeat the Others. Don't try to put words in my mouth, I've never once suggested the Others aren't the true enemy in fact, pretty much every post I've made about why I think Jon will be king also mentions how him being king directly correlates with the war against the Others...And no, I'm not sold Tyrion is the third head... Also in case you've forgotten the original three-headed dragon, in which the Targ house sigil is based off of, had a member that actually was king and that man was Aegon l, so there's nothing that says being a head of the dragon means Jon can't be king.....

[Twinslayer]

No, the first four dead men he encounters he doesn't know, it isn't until he slays Ygritte that he starts seeing ppl he knows, which is when the nightmarish part of the dream starts. Also the fact that he's wielding a flaming sword while he's battling in the snow is a reference to original AA in the battle for Dawn against the Others

The original AA wasn't a Targ, was he?

[Ghost's Shadow]

No, the first four dead men he encounters he doesn't know, it isn't until he slays Ygritte that he starts seeing ppl he knows, which is when the nightmarish part of the dream starts. Also the fact that he's wielding a flaming sword while he's battling in the snow is a reference to original AA in the first Battle for Dawn against the Others.

Speaking of that flaming sword... I wonder if he *had* to burn his hand so he could wield it later on, if all that wasn't a coincidence, but fate.

[Jon Icefyre]

The original AA wasn't a Targ, was he?

Nope, at least not that I know of, I don't think he was a Stark either though...

[Ghost's Shadow]

Maybe it was a pre-version of that combo? Who knows after so many millennia, if that date is even correct.

Looking forward to hearing more of that, though, and the first Long Night, though I guess the next one won't take 20 years?

[Jon Icefyre]

Maybe it was a pre-version of that combo? Who knows after so many millennia, if that date is even correct.

Ya that's what I was thinking.

[J. Stargaryen]

Oh dear, you need to relax.

First of all, it was a joke!

Second, even if you assume that Jon will become a king, there are still other forms of king that Jon might become, quite aside from King of Westeros and King in the North.

Third, the dream is not about being king at all; it's about defending the Wall. The case that Jon will continue to defend the Wall does indeed appear very strong.

Fourth, R+L=J is an intrinsically problematic theory that doesn't need attacks; it needs defense.

I am still waiting for someone -- anyone -- to prove the statement made by J. Stargaryen that "We know Rhaegar and Lyanna spent several months together."

I read what Ygrain wrote; it was full of emotional remarks like "Brandon got mad," which prove nothing except that Brandon got mad.

Really, folks. Even if you grant every one of her points, you are still no closer to proving the assertion that Rhaegar and Lyanna spent several months together. It's just a common fallacy of this thread, like so many others -- oft-repeated, oft-believed, and never demonstrated.

Another recent one is that D&D from HBO "correctly figured out" Jon's parents from book one. Here's the truth: GRRM asked them who Jon Snow's mother was, and they gave an answer they considered shocking, and he smiled. Mother. Not parents.

Personally, I interpret this to mean Lyanna Stark is Jon's mother. But hasn't it crossed your mind to wonder why GRRM would ask about the mother, but not the parents?

There is a vast, open logical territory between Lyanna being Jon's mother and Rhaegar being Jon's only possible, proven, it's-a-fact father. The total lack of information we have on Lyanna between her abduction and her reappearance makes any such proof an impossible matter, as well as any proof that "we know" Rhaegar and Lyanna spent several months together.

Coming from the guy who thinks that Rhaegar could have been in Essos the whole time! Or that we need to account for every prick within riding distance before we can conclude that Rhaegar is Jon's father, I suppose that no amount of circumstantial evidence will satisfy your unreasonable standards.

We don't need, and we'll never get, day-to-day reports of R&L's time together. I mean, unless you imagine that we'll find a diary in Lyanna's tomb:

Dear diary, last night Rhae-Rhae had me try something he called "dragonstyle." I didn't think I'd like it, but before you know it I was howling at the moon like the she-wolf that I am.

The rest of us realize that we are meant to connect the dots. Like, for example:

• R&L simultaneously disappear and both are "off the grid" during the same time until;
  
• Ser Gerold Hightower summons Rhaegar back to KL on behalf of Aerys.
  
• Hightower is not heard from again until Ned finds him at the ToJ with Lyanna and his KG brothers.
  

Or:

• Rhaegar crowns Lyanna QoLaB with a laurel of blue roses, then;
  
• Ned finds Lyanna clutching roses in the ToJ, and;
  
• Ned thinks or dreams of Lyanna and blue roses on a number of occasions.
  

[MtnLion]

Isn't the dream about fighting wildlings and his brothers?

He sends them down to die, again.

[Dead Wolf]

He sends them down to die, again.

My thought was that these were people Jon had seen die or knew had died, none of them have blue eyes like the wights

[Jon Icefyre]

Coming from the guy who thinks that Rhaegar could have been in Essos the whole time! Or that we need to account for every prick within riding distance before we can conclude that Rhaegar is Jon's father, I suppose that no amount of circumstantial evidence will satisfy your unreasonable standards.

We don't need, and we'll never get, day-to-day reports of R&L's time together. I mean, unless you imagine that we'll find a diary in Lyanna's tomb:

Dear diary, last night Rhae-Rhae had me try something he called "dragonstyle." I didn't think I'd like it, but before you know it I was howling at the moon like the she-wolf that I am.

The rest of us realize that we are meant to connect the dots. Like, for example:

• R&L simultaneously disappear and both are "off the grid" during the same time until;
  
• Ser Gerold Hightower summons Rhaegar back to KL on behalf of Aerys.
  
• Hightower is not heard from again until Ned finds him at the ToJ with Lyanna and his KG brothers.
  

Or:

• Rhaegar crowns Lyanna QoLaB with a laurel of blue roses, then;
  
• Ned finds Lyanna clutching roses in the ToJ, and;
  
• Ned thinks or dreams of Lyanna and blue roses on a number of occasions.
  

"Dear diary, last night Rhae-Rhae had me try something he called "dragonstyle." I didn't think I'd like it, but before you know it I was howling at the moon like the she-wolf that I am." LMFAO!

:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I agree. It's Ned's way of hiding Jon in plain sight, but it has consequences in his relationship with Catelyn.

I'm interested in the older characters that were at Harrenhal for that Tourney and how many are still about that could visualise Rhaegar from memory and connect that with Jon.

In the north are we talking possibly Lord Manderley and Howland Reed?

Maybe the Blackfish, who has made a statement about Jon and Theon being false and maybe Jon being false meant he was never a bastard. Roose would possibly too.

Would Jaime Lannister make the connection? He didn't when visiting Winterfell, but Ned kept Jon away too.

Barristan Selmy would possibly. I'm not sure if Jorah Mormont would though.

Would Randyll Tarly? Mace Tyrell?

I think Jaime and Cersei definitely could, Jon being kept away from them in the great hall at WF is a perfect example. Others would be Barristan, JonCon, Lady Olenna, maybe Doran, Tarly and Tyrell possibly (they're old enough) and Blackfish is a very interesting one. There might be the odd lord from the South who's old enough, but I think most of the northern lords would either be too young or wouldn't have known Rhaegar well enough, which is why Jon has spent his life hidden under all that, well... Snow ;)

[Dead Wolf]

I think Jaime and Cersei definitely could, Jon being kept away from them in the great hall at WF is a perfect example. Others would be Barristan, JonCon, Lady Olenna, maybe Doran, Tarly and Tyrell possibly (they're old enough) and Blackfish is a very interesting one. There might be the odd lord from the South who's old enough, but I think most of the northern lords would either be too young or wouldn't have known Rhaegar well enough, which is why Jon has spent his life hidden under all that, well... Snow ;)

Wait a second :dunno: , Jon being seated away from the royal family at the feast was Cat's idea. She didn't want to offend the royal family by seating a bastard among them. How would anyone connect Rhaegar to Jon? Jon looks like Ned and has the melancholy of the Starks, I don't think there's anything to connect in any of their minds

[MtnLion]

My thought was that these were people Jon had seen die or knew had died, none of them have blue eyes like the wights

And, perhaps you saw some with some color eyes?

[MtnLion]

Wait a second :dunno: , Jon being seated away from the royal family at the feast was Cat's idea. She didn't want to offend the royal family by seating a bastard among them. How would anyone connect Rhaegar to Jon? Jon looks like Ned and has the melancholy of the Starks Rhaegar, I don't think there's anything to connect in any of their minds

Fixed that for you.

[Pero the first of His name]

I heard Kit Harrington will be in the movie called How to train a dragon 2.

[FrozenFire3]

We don't need, and we'll never get, day-to-day reports of R&L's time together. I mean, unless you imagine that we'll find a diary in Lyanna's tomb:

Dear diary, last night Rhae-Rhae had me try something he called "dragonstyle." I didn't think I'd like it, but before you know it I was howling at the moon like the she-wolf that I am.

Azor Rhae-Rhae and his flaming sword :lmao:

I'll never get rid of the mental picture :blushing:

p.s. excellent dot connecting btw ;)

[Pero the first of His name]

Dragonstyle?

I liked someone in another thread suggesting the reverse dragonlord.

[Ygrain]

Theseus, a king? Are you sure? I mean the one who killed the Mynotaurus, or whatever you spell it. Those myths tend to get blurred, but he was more an outlaw than a king, as far as I remember. He had a partner when raiding the countryside, what was his name? I can't remember.

Caesar was not a dictator, just a Consul.

The botom line is still the same: a hero needs not be a king.

Theseus was the son of the king of Athens, and ascended the throne after his father's demise (y'know, the story about switching black sails for white if he managed to defeat Minotaurus - he forgot, and when his father saw the black sails on horizon, he threw himself down the Acropolis). He did go pirating because it was something like badass fun those days.

As for Caesar, I'm afraid your history needs a bit of dusting, becoming a dictator was what basically got him killed.

[FrozenFire3]

Theseus was the son of the king of Athens, and ascended the throne after his father's demise (y'know, the story about switching black sails for white if he managed to defeat Minotaurus - he forgot, and when his father saw the black sails on horizon, he threw himself down the Acropolis). He did go pirating because it was something like badass fun those days.

As for Caesar, I'm afraid your history needs a bit of dusting, becoming a dictator was what basically got him killed.

Indeed. He took the title as dictator in 49 BC and kept it until his death in 44. In 47 BC he also got the title of imperator. Basically an absolute monarch.

Back to mythology, a hero can or cannot be a king. Very often his parentage is divine or partially divine and the origins stay undisclosed until the hero is ready to come to his full potential.

[Greymoon]

Wait a second :dunno: , Jon being seated away from the royal family at the feast was Cat's idea. She didn't want to offend the royal family by seating a bastard among them. How would anyone connect Rhaegar to Jon? Jon looks like Ned and has the melancholy of the Starks, I don't think there's anything to connect in any of their minds

Jon and melancholy....I perceive him as serious and dutiful. He certainly isn’t like Theon Greyjoy, but I never saw him as particularly melancholic. Anyway...that’s another topic.

It always struck me as telling that Ned, knowing what the Watch is, didn't really try to make Jon reconsider joining. He didn't argue, unlike Benjen. Yes, the Starks have manned the wall for thousands of years, but Jon was 14. Ned could have told him to wait a few years, but didn't. He didn't object to it, and IMO, it's evident that Ned felt some degree of relief because 1) Catelyn wouldn't have wanted Jon to stay in Winterfell, and 2) Ned couldn't have come up with a proper reason for not allowing Jon to go south with him. Even if bastards are not well liked in KL - though we have yet to have any evidence that this is the case, I’m thinking about Aurane Waters, for ex. - Jon, as the son of the King's Hand, could have had great opportunities down south. He could have become a squire at the very least. It's also telling to some degree that no matter how much Catelyn wanted to see Jon go, Ned never send him away to be fostered.

As for the look...What child looks like a carbon copy of the one, and only one parent? I mean, truly ? Jon has the Stark coloring, the Stark long face and that's enough to make him 'look like Ned', because these are the more obvious Stark traits. But we don't know all about Jon's look. It would be ridiculous to assume that he only has Stark features and is basically Ned's clone.

Besides, often when you know only 1 parent + child, you think 'Hey, that kid looks just like his dad' then, when you get to know the other parent, sometimes you reconsider, and think 'Hey, that kid looks quite a lot like his mum, actually'. Further different people might notice different traits/resemblances. I think that it's often easier to compare father/son and mother/daughter even if the son looks more like the mother, and the daughter more like the father....

Jon's darker eye color is already a hint, that he looks not only a Stark. His body, muscle and bone structure might be another. "Two brothers couldn't have looked more different": Robb has a stocky build, Jon has a lean build. Yes, Ned seems to have a leaner build than Brandon, but the last generation of Targaryens appears rather very slender, too.

For all we know, Jon has Rhaeagr’s eye shape. It’s been mentioned here before. I doubt that just the eye shape would be enough to determine anything, however, because honestly, how many people in the world have a similar eye shape? But, eye shape + the way his lip curls if he smiles/scowls, or + cheekbones or + the slightly crooked edge of his nose or + the pointy chin or... :dunno:

We have no idea, actually how Jon looks - besides that he’s probably not bad looking based on Ygritte's, Val's, Alys’s and Melisandre’s interactions with him.