R+L=J v 59

[The guy from the Vale]

Theseus was the son of the king of Athens, and ascended the throne after his father's demise (y'know, the story about switching black sails for white if he managed to defeat Minotaurus - he forgot, and when his father saw the black sails on horizon, he threw himself down the Acropolis). He did go pirating because it was something like badass fun those days.

As for Caesar, I'm afraid your history needs a bit of dusting, becoming a dictator was what basically got him killed.

Add to that that Siegfried is actually king of the Netherlands, and it's precisely that position coupled with his status as vassal of Burgundry that raises suspicions and ultimately gets him killed.

[Dead Wolf]

Fixed that for you.

Jon's manner is similar to Ned's and remember Ned's own words "For a moment he was as melancholy as a Stark" about Robert? So I still don't think any of those lords would guess R+L=J from that.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Wait a second :dunno: , Jon being seated away from the royal family at the feast was Cat's idea. She didn't want to offend the royal family by seating a bastard among them.

According to Jon. How does he know what private words passed between Ned and Catelyn? Do you?

How would anyone connect Rhaegar to Jon? Jon looks like Ned and has the melancholy of the Starks, I don't think there's anything to connect in any of their minds

To echo what others have said, Jon has been shown to have a number of Rhaegar's personality traits. Also children seldom look like just one parent. Both of mine strongly resemble one parent, yet have moments when they seem to channel the other-- through expressions, eye shape, scowls, smiles and mannerisms. Someone who knew Rhaegar well (Jaime Lannister, for instance) could certainly be struck by some ineffable resemblance, could begin to wonder, put two and two together, ask awkward questions... Much safer to keep the boy well out of notice by those whose knowledge may prove dangerous.

[finger]

Smh, which is why I've given multiple page long posts on these threads detailing why Jon becoming king of the North is the best way he'll be able to help the NW defeat the Others. Don't try to put words in my mouth, I've never once suggested the Others aren't the true enemy in fact, pretty much every post I've made about why I think Jon will be king also mentions how him being king directly correlates with the war against the Others...And no, I'm not sold Tyrion is the third head... Also in case you've forgotten the original three-headed dragon, in which the Targ house sigil is based off of, had a member that actually was king and that man was Aegon l, so there's nothing that says being a head of the dragon means Jon can't be king.....

I don't. Try not to take it so personal.

I take you agree that the main action is the fight against the others. Tywin's strategy neglects them and he's focused in the fight for the IT.

When the real danger shows up, the IT won't be important.

There are many clues pointing to Tyrion, but we're not talking about that.

[finger]

Theseus was the son of the king of Athens, and ascended the throne after his father's demise (y'know, the story about switching black sails for white if he managed to defeat Minotaurus - he forgot, and when his father saw the black sails on horizon, he threw himself down the Acropolis). He did go pirating because it was something like badass fun those days.

As for Caesar, I'm afraid your history needs a bit of dusting, becoming a dictator was what basically got him killed.

Indeed. He took the title as dictator in 49 BC and kept it until his death in 44. In 47 BC he also got the title of imperator. Basically an absolute monarch.

Back to mythology, a hero can or cannot be a king. Very often his parentage is divine or partially divine and the origins stay undisclosed until the hero is ready to come to his full potential.

I see my memory is no more what it used to be and also that you'd liked te topic.

I was browsing the Theseus thing and found out some details I'd forgotten long ago. He was a son of Aegeus, king of Athens, by a foreign princess, out of marriage. We was raised by her mother's family. With time his parentage was discovered, and he was given his father's tokens, hidden under a stone.

He went to his father and lived many adventures.

He reunited different lordships and the sort in an only "kingdom", he welcomed foreigners into it, and he gave up his crown and regal rights.

Well, some details remind me of someone

[Dead Wolf]

According to Jon. How does he know what private words passed between Ned and Catelyn? Do you?

To echo what others have said, Jon has been shown to have a number of Rhaegar's personality traits. Also children seldom look like just one parent. Both of mine strongly resemble one parent, yet have moments when they seem to channel the other-- through expressions, eye shape, scowls, smiles and mannerisms. Someone who knew Rhaegar well (Jaime Lannister, for instance) could certainly be struck by some ineffable resemblance, could begin to wonder, put two and two together, ask awkward questions... Much safer to keep the boy well out of notice by those whose knowledge may prove dangerous.

Robert's bastards were also kept out of sight to avoid offending Cersei or Tywin. Cersei's pride was said to grow with each passing year so it's safe to assume that the sight of a bastard even near her children would have offended her. And the rumor about Ashara is widespread is it not? That would explain any noticeable Targ features Jon might display.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Robert's bastards were also kept out of sight to avoid offending Cersei or Tywin. Cersei's pride was said to grow with each passing year so it's safe to assume that the sight of a bastard even near her children would have offended her. And the rumor about Ashara is widespread is it not? That would explain any noticeable Targ features Jon might display.

Ashara is not a Targ.

[Dead Wolf]

Ashara is not a Targ.

The Dayne's have features similar to the Targs. Ser Barristan remarks how Dany looks like Ashara's daughter

[King of Winters]

The Dayne's have features similar to the Targs. Ser Barristan remarks how Dany looks like Ashara's daughter

GRRM has said the Daynes have no Valyrian blood in them.

[Dead Wolf]

GRRM has said the Daynes have no Valyrian blood in them.

That doesn't change the fact that the Daynes and Targs have similar features

[King of Winters]

That doesn't change the fact that the Daynes and Targs have similar features

The Daynes are First Men, so they were around before the Valyrian Empire came about. And GRRM has said that purple eyes aren't uncommon.

[Jon Icefyre]

I don't. Try not to take it so personal.

I take you agree that the main action is the fight against the others. Tywin's strategy neglects them and he's focused in the fight for the IT.

When the real danger shows up, the IT won't be important.

There are many clues pointing to Tyrion, but we're not talking about that.

Ya the Iron Throne 'probably' won't be important but that's never been my main argument, my argument from day 1 has been that Jon will be KITN not that he'll sit on the Iron Throne, and yes the Northern kingdom will be very relevant in the war against the Others for obvious reasons. So again, my belief is and has always been that Jon being KITN will directly correlate with the War against the Others.

[Dead Wolf]

The Daynes are First Men, so they were around before the Valyrian Empire came about. And GRRM has said that purple eyes aren't uncommon.

So if Jon displayed any Targ features, anyone would assume that his mother was Ashara and that he got it from her.

[King of Winters]

So if Jon displayed any Targ features, anyone would assume that his mother was Ashara and that he got it from her.

If Jon had purple eyes, or pale blonde/silvery hair, then Ned would say he was son of Ashara. But he wouldn't say "Targ" features because Robert would probably try to kill Jon or try and have him killed.

[the_one_who_was_promised]

Speaking of that flaming sword... I wonder if he *had* to burn his hand so he could wield it later on, if all that wasn't a coincidence, but fate.

That got me thinking... I'm probably way off the mark, but perhaps the original AA was a Targ? After all, we don't know what his heritage was at this point in time and although Dany surviving the pyre was a one-off, there does seem to be some kind of association between Targs and fire. According to Jaime's PoV for instance, Aerys thought he would survive the fire in KL and rise from the ashes as a dragon, so I wonder if it's possible that this allusion to certain Targs occasionally overcoming fire is due to one of their ancestors having been AA?

[the_one_who_was_promised]

According to Jon. How does he know what private words passed between Ned and Catelyn? Do you?

To echo what others have said, Jon has been shown to have a number of Rhaegar's personality traits. Also children seldom look like just one parent. Both of mine strongly resemble one parent, yet have moments when they seem to channel the other-- through expressions, eye shape, scowls, smiles and mannerisms. Someone who knew Rhaegar well (Jaime Lannister, for instance) could certainly be struck by some ineffable resemblance, could begin to wonder, put two and two together, ask awkward questions... Much safer to keep the boy well out of notice by those whose knowledge may prove dangerous.

I agree with you. I had a conversation with someone not so long ago about whether baseline personality traits can be hereditary, and although the science in this respect is inconclusive, I don't think it a foregone conclusion that GRRM would have ruled out Jon displaying any of Rhaegar's traits. In real life, we have many instances of children resembling one parent more than the other despite the fact that they have been raised with other siblings, adopted children exhibiting certain traits not shared with their adoptive parents etc. and identical twins exhibiting similar baseline personal traits despite having been raised apart.

Indeed, my personal take on this is that Jon is quite similar to Rhaegar in a number of ways, but his courage and sense of integrity can be easily (and conveniently) explained away by having been raised by Ned.

Likewise, I think he may also share certain resemblances to Rhaegar in his physical appaearance too. In a recent re-read of GoT, it is quite startling that when Ned is thinking of Jon, he often thinks of Lyanna and Rhaegar as well, so the question beckons, is there something within Jon that makes Ned also think of Rhaegar? Like I've said before, had Aemon not been blind, I am sure he would have noticed a possible resemblance himself.

[Dead Wolf]

If Jon had purple eyes, or pale blonde/silvery hair, then Ned would say he was son of Ashara. But he wouldn't say "Targ" features because Robert would probably try to kill Jon or try and have him killed.

I din't say he would say Targ features I said if any lords who knew Rhaegar thought they could see similarities in their appearances, Ned could say he got them from Ashara

[King of Winters]

I din't say he would say Targ features I said if any lords who knew Rhaegar thought they could see similarities in their appearances, Ned could say he got them from Ashara

Yes, I'm saying that. I was just saying why he wouldn't say Targ features.

[Ghost's Shadow]

I agree with you. I had a conversation with someone not so long ago about whether baseline personality traits can be hereditary, and although the science in this respect is inconclusive, I don't think it a foregone conclusion that GRRM would have ruled out Jon displaying any of Rhaegar's traits. In real life, we have many instances of children resembling one parent more than the other despite the fact that they have been raised with other siblings, adopted children exhibiting certain traits not shared with their adoptive parents etc. and identical twins exhibiting similar baseline personal traits despite having been raised apart.

Indeed, my personal take on this is that Jon is quite similar to Rhaegar in a number of ways, but his courage and sense of integrity can be easily (and conveniently) explained away by having been raised by Ned.

Likewise, I think he may also share certain resemblances to Rhaegar in his physical appaearance too. In a recent re-read of GoT, it is quite startling that when Ned is thinking of Jon, he often thinks of Lyanna and Rhaegar as well, so the question beckons, is there something within Jon that makes Ned also think of Rhaegar? Like I've said before, had Aemon not been blind, I am sure he would have noticed a possible resemblance himself.

I've said this in here once before, but I'll say it again ( :lol:): I once said in a thread that I thought the Ned and Rhaegar were alike, definitely if you consider the middle-man in this to be Jon. He seems to have some of Ned's traits, but then you can easily see Rhaegar had them too. Whether it's DNA in George's world or not I'll leave in the middle (could be a bit of both), as I don't think we'll ever get the answer to that question.

About Maester Aemon and seeing Jon Snow: has it ever been said that Aemon met Rhaegar? They wrote each other, but the Maester had been on the Wall for so long and Rhaegar died young. If it's indeed true Aemon had been made blind as to not being able to see Jon, it might just be general Targ traits and not specifically Rhaegar ones? Unless Aemon had an inkling of things, he wouldn't be comparing personalities yet. (Not that the difference between the things is that important. ;))

[Dead Wolf]

I agree. It's Ned's way of hiding Jon in plain sight, but it has consequences in his relationship with Catelyn.

I'm interested in the older characters that were at Harrenhal for that Tourney and how many are still about that could visualise Rhaegar from memory and connect that with Jon.

In the north are we talking possibly Lord Manderley and Howland Reed?

Maybe the Blackfish, who has made a statement about Jon and Theon being false and maybe Jon being false meant he was never a bastard. Roose would possibly too.

Would Jaime Lannister make the connection? He didn't when visiting Winterfell, but Ned kept Jon away too.

Barristan Selmy would possibly. I'm not sure if Jorah Mormont would though.

Would Randyll Tarly? Mace Tyrell?

The Blackfish just said that Cat never trusted Jon or Theon. Also, I think it was in this thread that someone remarked about Jon having a few "waking the dragon" moments. To that I would respond that Ned had a moment where he snapped and almost killed Littlefinger, similar to how Jon almost throttled Alliser Thorne.