R+L=J v 59

[Dead Wolf]

double post, sorry

[Dead Wolf]

And all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow. Pretty blatant clue, methinks.

Sure, but I never said Howland would reveal it now. No telling how things might change in future books, though.

Aemon was mostly forgotten by the time of AGOT.

Only due to the intervention of Jon Arryn. Without him, Robert would've tried to have them killed long ago.

And Ned's intervention and reasoning that the NW takes no part would also have convinced Robert to leave Jon alive, as well as the love Robert had for Ned and Lyanna. Maester Aemon could have written some of Mormont's letters and written "done in the hand of Maester Aemon" or something.

[Dead Wolf]

And all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow. Pretty blatant clue, methinks.

Sure, but I never said Howland would reveal it now. No telling how things might change in future books, though.

Aemon was mostly forgotten by the time of AGOT.

Only due to the intervention of Jon Arryn. Without him, Robert would've tried to have them killed long ago.

Bloodraven could have been warging the raven, and would have known Robb was Jon's half brother

[Dio Forel]

If she did that, then she'd be no better than Robert. By right the Targ Throne belongs to Jon, and if Dany doesn't like that then she'll become a usurper.

The madness of a Targ has changed her. I dont think she opposes usurpers when its herself taking the throne.

[Jon Icefyre]

double post, sorry

Ya I saw what your original comment to me was before you took it out:

I said possibly sit the Iron Throne not he will if it's true and Winterfell and Robb's crown would still by rights belong to Sansa, Bran, or Rickon if Bran is never revealed. Robb's will wouldn't apply as it was written under the assumption that Bran and Rickon were dead.

So here's my response to that lol:

Robb tells Cat he thinks Arya is also dead so no he doesn't name her in the will. Also we don't know the exact phrasing Robb used in the will, since he and the rest of the North assume both his brothers are dead, Arya is a child that is most likely dead, and that Sansa is legally married to a Lannister, it's definitely possible if not probable that he could have felt he didn't need to go into detail about the status of his siblings since the North already knows, so he could have just simply wrote that he names Jon who is a bastard with Stark blood as his heir, and didn't neccesarily put that Jon was the son of Eddard as Robb would assume the North already knows that so he doesn't need to inform them of that. So if the will indeed just states simply that he legitimizes Jon as a Stark and his heir, then even if any of the siblings Robb believes to be dead return, it could still be argued that Jon by the King of the North's(Robb) own law is still Robb's official/legal heir.

Even if the North finds out and believes R+L=J(which I think they will) if they can't find concrete hard proof of the legitimacy of the marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna which as much as I hate to admit it, it does seem likely they won't be able to do that at this point even though I do think the marriage was legit, then technically legally Jon would still be a bastard with Stark blood being that he would be the son of Lyanna Stark. So Jon would still meet the terms of Robb's will and be qualified to be his heir based on the will.

IMO Rickon will get to Winterfell long before Sansa does, and because of this I think the North will hold some sort of small council meeting to decide who to name King of the North similar to what the Targs did awhile back when they chose Aegon the unlikely as king. Remember there's a reason GRRM gives us these little historical facts/info, it's to give us precedence to fall back on for the actions he gives the characters that will come later in the books. Again this takes Sansa out of the running because Rickon as a male has claim of the North over her regardless, Rickon will probably tell the northern lords that Bran is alive and even with that new found info, I think it's definitely possible if not likely that the North regardless of finding out about R+L=J will decide that Jon is still best fit to be King of the North seeing as Robb had enough faith and trust in Jon to name him his heir, Rickon still being a child, and Bran is crippled/not in their location. While Jon is the age Robb would be, he has Stark blood from his mother Lyanna, Jon was raised by Lord Eddard at Winterfell as his own and loved him like is own son, he's seasoned in battle, and has experience as a leader/commander being that he is Lord Commander of the NW a position he was voted to by his peers. Based on this the North might very well consider Jon as the best fit therefore naming him King of the North, with Robb's will giving them an iron clad justification for naming Jon king.

Therefore the northern lords would use Robb's will as a basis for making Jon king and legitimizing him as a legal Stark with Targ blood. IMO this seems to be the most realistic way for both R+L=J to be true and at the same time have the North acknowledge Jon as both legitimate and a Stark, while also creating a doorway for the rest of Westeros in general to at the very least consider the very real possibilty of R+L=J, if not fully acknowledge Jon as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

[Dragonfish]

And Ned's intervention and reasoning that the NW takes no part would also have convinced Robert to leave Jon alive, as well as the love Robert had for Ned and Lyanna.

I think you underestimate Robert's wrath. The knowledge that Ned hid this child, the product of Rhaegar's rape of Lyanna (or so he thinks), for so many years would probably override whatever love he had for them.

Maester Aemon could have written some of Mormont's letters and written "done in the hand of Maester Aemon" or something.

He could've, but we don't know that he did, so that makes your point rather weak.

Bloodraven could have been warging the raven, and would have known Robb was Jon's half brother

And how would that make Jon a king at this point in the story?

[Dead Wolf]

Ya I saw what your original comment to me was before you took it out:

So here's my response to that lol:

Robb tells Cat he thinks Arya is also dead so no he doesn't name her in the will. Also we don't know the exact phrasing Robb used in the will, since he and the rest of the North assume both his brothers are dead, Arya is a child that is most likely dead, and that Sansa is legally married to a Lannister, it's definitely possible if not probable that he could have felt he didn't need to go into detail about the status of his siblings since the North already knows, so he could have just simply wrote that he names Jon who is a bastard with Stark blood as his heir, and didn't neccesarily put that Jon was the son of Eddard as Robb would assume the North already knows that so he doesn't need to inform them of that. So if the will indeed just states simply that he legitimizes Jon as a Stark and his heir, then even if any of the siblings Robb believes to be dead return, it could still be argued that Jon by the King of the North's(Robb) own law is still Robb's official/legal heir.

Even if the North finds out and believes R+L=J(which I think they will) if they can't find concrete hard proof of the legitimacy of the marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna which as much as I hate to admit it, it does seem likely they won't be able to do that at this point even though I do think the marriage was legit, then technically legally Jon would still be a bastard with Stark blood being that he would be the son of Lyanna Stark. So Jon would still meet the terms of Robb's will and be qualified to be his heir based on the will.

IMO Rickon will get to Winterfell long before Sansa does, and because of this I think the North will hold some sort of small council meeting to decide who to name King of the North similar to what the Targs did awhile back when they chose Aegon the unlikely as king. Remember there's a reason GRRM gives us these little historical facts/info, it's to give us precedence to fall back on for the actions he gives the characters that will come later in the books. Again this takes Sansa out of the running because Rickon as a male has claim of the North over her regardless, Rickon will probably tell the northern lords that Bran is alive and even with that new found info, I think it's definitely possible if not likely that the North regardless of finding out about R+L=J will decide that Jon is still best fit to be King of the North seeing as Robb had enough faith and trust in Jon to name him his heir, Rickon still being a child, and Bran is crippled/not in their location. While Jon is the age Robb would be, he has Stark blood from his mother Lyanna, Jon was raised by Lord Eddard at Winterfell as his own and loved him like is own son, he's seasoned in battle, and has experience as a leader/commander being that he is Lord Commander of the NW a position he was voted to by his peers. Based on this the North might very well consider Jon as the best fit therefore naming him King of the North, with Robb's will giving them an iron clad justification for naming Jon king.

Therefore the northern lords would use Robb's will as a basis for making Jon king and legitimizing him as a legal Stark with Targ blood. IMO this seems to be the most realistic way for both R+L=J to be true and at the same time have the North acknowledge Jon as both legitimate and a Stark, while also creating a doorway for the rest of Westeros in general to at the very least consider the very real possibilty of R+L=J, if not fully acknowledge Jon as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen.

Why would the North accept the son of the man their beloved Ned went to war with? The Greatjon feels strongly about male dominance and would demand that Rickon or Bran ascend to the throne rather than a cousin who they came before in the line of succession. Robb's will has no force because Bran and Rickon who come before Jon were thought to be dead. Wyman Manderly wants Rickon as his liege despite knowing Bran is alive, Lady Dustin may or may not go to war with any Stark that resurfaces. Jon could rule as regent until one of them came of age but if R+L=J is true I don't think he'll ever rule as KitN.

[Dead Wolf]

I think you underestimate Robert's wrath. The knowledge that Ned hid this child, the product of Rhaegar's rape of Lyanna (or so he thinks), for so many years would probably override whatever love he had for them.

He could've, but we don't know that he did, so that makes your point rather weak.

And how would that make Jon a king at this point in the story?

It wouldn't just because the raven ws looking at Jon doesn't necessarily mean it meant he was a king. Bloodraven likely knew Jon was still dedicated to House Stark and his brother, he was guaging Jon's reaction to the news that the NW was riding out to find Ben Stark, Jon's uncle and that Robb was a king

[Jory Cassel]

Even if the North finds out and believes R+L=J(which I think they will) if they can't find concrete hard proof of the legitimacy of the marriage between Rhaegar and Lyanna which as much as I hate to admit it, it does seem likely they won't be able to do that at this point even though I do think the marriage was legit, then technically legally Jon would still be a bastard with Stark blood being that he would be the son of Lyanna Stark.

total crackpot: Asha, who heard from Theon about the crypts and the missing swords, will go down there after Stannis and Manderly took Winterfell. She will notice Lyanna's tomb, the only tomb of a woman down there, and she'll be fascinated, and for some reason she will look into the tomb and find a Targaryen marriage cloak (and possibly Dark Sister). She then proceeds to show them to Stannis, who sees the cloak for what it is and puts the pieces together.

As he is intent on not setting precedents for usurping, he steps down and support Jon's claim, as he's already seen his qualities as a ruler.

another crackpot: Targaryen-blood is necessary to rule over the North, after it has become part of the seven Kingdoms, by merging Stark and Targaryen bloodlines Jon has the heritage for ruling the North via Stark-blood and via the Targaryen blood, he is entitled to rule it seperately from the Iron Throne.

[Joe Pine]

Who says R+L=J absolutely has to mean Jon will take the Iron Throne instead of being KITN? You seem to be forgetting the part where he would also be Lyanna Stark's son, which believe it or not, would still mean a great deal in the North....Smh typical detractor that treats R+L=J as if the R is the only thing that matters.......

Well said. Jon being a cousin to Bran and Rickon is important for the restoration of the Starks in the north. He's old enough to be regent for either of them.

Jon's unlikely to be interested in the Southron kingdoms unless they can help should the wall be broken and the others come south.

[Jon Icefyre]

Why would the North accept the son of the man their beloved Ned went to war with? The Greatjon feels strongly about male dominance and would demand that Rickon or Bran ascend to the throne rather than a cousin who they came before in the line of succession. Robb's will has no force because Bran and Rickon who come before Jon were thought to be dead. Wyman Manderly wants Rickon as his liege despite knowing Bran is alive, Lady Dustin may or may not go to war with any Stark that resurfaces. Jon could rule as regent until one of them came of age but if R+L=J is true I don't think he'll ever rule as KitN.

They went to war with Aerys for beheading Brandon, Rickard, and calling for Ned's head. So once R+L=J is revealed along with the fact that Rhaegar never actually kidnapped and raped Lyanna and that they were actually in fact in love and had a son then I doubt the North will continue to hold beef with Rhaegar. Besides either way Aerys was the one they went to war against, Rhaegar was more of Robert's opponent that anyone, and I think once the North realizes that if Lyanna's own brother their former beloved Lord Eddard loved Jon enough to raise him as his own then they should probably do the same, and that they probably have the wrong idea of Rhaegar.

Also Robb was their king his will has more force and holds more power than anything. So again if Robb's will never explicitly states that Jon is his brother or the son of Eddard which Robb could have very well left out due to the fact he would have thought it was assumed by northerners, then that would mean regardless of R+L=J, Jon would still 100% be Robb's legal heir based on Robb's own words! Robb's dead now so the North can't exactly go ask him what he mean't by it, they can only go by his words. Robb was their king therefore his documented words are the only thing that would matter in legally validating Jon as KITN. It's not the North's place to say something their king commanded/documented was illegal, he's the F**n king whatever he validates is obviously legal and holds the most power. So again if he worded the will the way I've suggested, then no matter what the will is 100% legal! And is held as law above any other possible agenda the North might want to push. The simple fact of the matter is war unlike any other they've ever faced is coming to the North very soon, Jon would still be the beloved Lady of Winterfell Lyanna Stark's son and their former King's legal heir and a legal Stark based on the king's own words. The North was fiercely loyal to Robb and Jon is without a doubt the best and most qualified man for king of a North that again, is about to face war. I'm thinking Robb's will along with R+L=J will be revealed to the North on the heels of the Other's invasion, GRRM gave us the will for a reason he didn't just put it in there for show, so sorry but as much as you don't like it, IMO Jon is definitely going to be strongly considered as KITN over Rickon at some point. Again I'm thinking Jon will be KITK and Rickon will still be Lord of Winterfell.....

[Dragonfish]

It wouldn't just because the raven ws looking at Jon doesn't necessarily mean it meant he was a king. Bloodraven likely knew Jon was still dedicated to House Stark and his brother, he was guaging Jon's reaction to the news that the NW was riding out to find Ben Stark, Jon's uncle and that Robb was a king

So he gauged his reaction simply by repeating the word "king"? How could that effectively gauge his reaction to Robb being king?

[Jon Icefyre]

total crackpot: Asha, who heard from Theon about the crypts and the missing swords, will go down there after Stannis and Manderly took Winterfell. She will notice Lyanna's tomb, the only tomb of a woman down there, and she'll be fascinated, and for some reason she will look into the tomb and find a Targaryen marriage cloak (and possibly Dark Sister). She then proceeds to show them to Stannis, who sees the cloak for what it is and puts the pieces together.

As he is intent on not setting precedents for usurping, he steps down and support Jon's claim, as he's already seen his qualities as a ruler.

another crackpot: Targaryen-blood is necessary to rule over the North, after it has become part of the seven Kingdoms, by merging Stark and Targaryen bloodlines Jon has the heritage for ruling the North via Stark-blood and via the Targaryen blood, he is entitled to rule it seperately from the Iron Throne.

Hmmm interesting crackpot indeed I like it, I also like the War of Roses(which GRRM does use) type of union with Jon himself as a Stark and Targaryen, representing the marriage of Henry Tudor and Elizabeth York.

[King of Winters]

Hmmm interesting crackpot indeed I like it, I also like the War of Roses(which GRRM does use) type of union with Jon himself as a Stark and Targaryen, representing the marriage of Henry Tudor and Elizabeth York.

There was a topic a while back about Henry VII's royal sigil, a white dog and a red dragon, could be a historical parallel between his sigil and Jon if he became King, or at least his parentage.

[Dead Wolf]

They went to war with Aerys for beheading Brandon, Rickard, and calling for Ned's head. So once R+L=J is revealed along with the fact that Rhaegar never actually kidnapped and raped Lyanna and that they were actually in fact in love and had a son then I doubt the North will continue to hold beef with Rhaegar. Besides either way Aerys was the one they went to war against, Rhaegar was more of Robert's opponent that anyone, and I think once the North realizes that if Lyanna's own brother their former beloved Lord Eddard loved Jon enough to raise him as his own then they should probably do the same, and that they probably have the wrong idea of Rhaegar.

Also Robb was their king his will has more force and holds more power than anything. So again if Robb's will never explicitly states that Jon is his brother or the son of Eddard which Robb could have very well left out due to the fact he would have thought it was assumed by northerners, then that would mean regardless of R+L=J, Jon would still 100% be Robb's legal heir based on Robb's own words! Robb's dead now so the North can't exactly go ask him what he mean't by it, they can only go by his words. Robb was their king therefore his documented words are the only thing that would matter in legally validating Jon as KITN. It's not the North's place to say something their king commanded/documented was illegal, he's the F**n king whatever he validates is obviously legal and holds the most power. So again if he worded the will the way I've suggested, then no matter what the will is 100% legal! And is held as law above any other possible agenda the North might want to push. The simple fact of the matter is war unlike any other they've ever faced is coming to the North very soon, Jon would still be the beloved Lady of Winterfell Lyanna Stark's son and their former King's legal heir and a legal Stark based on the king's own words. The North was fiercely loyal to Robb and Jon is without a doubt the best and most qualified man for king of a North that again, is about to face war. I'm thinking Robb's will along with R+L=J will be revealed to the North on the heels of the Other's invasion, GRRM gave us the will for a reason he didn't just put it in there for show, so sorry but as much as you don't like it, IMO Jon is definitely going to be strongly considered as KITN over Rickon at some point. Again I'm thinking Jon will be KITK and Rickon will still be Lord of Winterfell.....

Jon wasn't actually that well known in the North. Robb's will would be very clear in the matter of the succession, he would state that Lord Eddard Stark had four sons and that he, the KitN, declared Jon Snow legitimate and his heir now that Lord Eddard's other sons had died. The North wanted their own king because the Targs were thought to be extinguished. Then there's the matter of whether or not Jon would actually accept kingship if Rickon is revealed. He was perfectly willing to vouch for Sansa who was a Lannister by marriage, over himself. If R+L=J is true Jon would feel as if he was stealing Winterfell from Bran or Rickon who have more right to it than him as sons of Lord Stark. Rhaegar led and army into battle at the Trident, against the northmen, so I don't think they'd be too happy to see his son on the high seat of the Starks (If R+L=J is true).

[Jon Icefyre]

Jon wasn't actually that well known in the North. Robb's will would be very clear in the matter of the succession, he would state that Lord Eddard Stark had four sons and that he, the KitN, declared Jon Snow legitimate and his heir now that Lord Eddard's other sons had died. The North wanted their own king because the Targs were thought to be extinguished. Then there's the matter of whether or not Jon would actually accept kingship if Rickon is revealed. He was perfectly willing to vouch for Sansa who was a Lannister by marriage, over himself. If R+L=J is true Jon would feel as if he was stealing Winterfell from Bran or Rickon who have more right to it than him as sons of Lord Stark. Rhaegar led and army into battle at the Trident, against the northmen, so I don't think they'd be too happy to see his son on the high seat of the Starks (If R+L=J is true).

A. What actual proof do you have that Jon wasn't well known in the north because even ppl in the south like Varys, Littlefinger, Cersei, and Jamie Lannister mention Jon. In fact Tyrion knew who Jon was the moment he saw him, so why would the North not be familiar with him? Cat says, "Ned called Jon his son for all the world to see" which not only tells us that Jon was raised at Winterfell, but also suggests that Jon was recognized and acknowledged by the general Northern public.

B. I've already said it's probable that Robb didn't even mention his other siblings in his will for obvious reasons that I've already stated multiple times, which means that it can be argued by those would want to argue it in the north, that based on the king's own words which is law above all else, Jon is the legal heir regardless. Again, it wouldn't be the first time in Westeros that other's higher in the line of succesion have been passed over to name someone else as king which is why I said the North would most likely hold some sort of council meeting similar to the Targs when Aegon the Unlikely was selected as king. GRRM gives us these examples of precedence for a reason. Would there be ppl that disagree? Probably, but as a whole I think the North will eventually rally around the man with Stark blood who is most capable and qualified of leading them in the war against the Other's and decide to call that man 'king' which like it or not, is Jon. You think you're the first person to make an argument against this? Like I said there's a reason GRRM gave us the will in the first place, and it would be quite a mistake to think the will won't come back into play at some point in the North.

[Dead Wolf]

A. What actual proof do you have that Jon wasn't well known in the north because even ppl in the south like Varys, Littlefinger, Cersei, and Jamie Lannister mention Jon. In fact Tyrion knew who Jon was the moment he saw him, so why would the North not be familiar with him? Cat says, "Ned called Jon his son for all the world to see" which not only tells us that Jon was raised at Winterfell, but also suggests that Jon was recognized and acknowledged by the general Northern public.

B. I've already said it's probable that Robb didn't even mention his other siblings in his will for obvious reasons that I've already stated multiple times, which means that it can be argued by those would want to argue it in the north, that based on the king's own words which is law above all else, Jon is the legal heir regardless. Would there be ppl that disagree probably, but as a whole I think the North will eventually rally around the man with Stark blood who is most capable and qualified of leading them in the war against the Other's and decide to call that man 'king' which like it or not, is Jon. You think you're the first person to make an argument against this? Like I said there's a reason GRRM gave us the will in the first place, and it would be quite a mistake to think the will won't come back into play at some point in the North.

Varys and Littlefinger have huge spy networks, it is known that Ned has a bastard, and Tyrion recognized Jon because he looked like Ned. The North knew who Jon was, but he only ever really came into contact with Cley Cerwyn, Alys Karstark, and the other children/teenagers in Winterfell. The North only knows that Jon is Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. I haven't said that Robb's will wouldn't come into play at some point in the future, only that the Northern lords wouldn't accept him as readily as they accepted Robb if R+L=J is true. Even so, Jon is still LC of the Night's Watch and cannot step down to be KitN unless somehow released from his vows or the NW is disbanded. As LC it's his responsibility to fight the Others. Jon won't step down if he's as honorable as his father (Who I believe is Ned).

[Jon Icefyre]

Varys and Littlefinger have huge spy networks, it is known that Ned has a bastard, and Tyrion recognized Jon because he looked like Ned. The North knew who Jon was, but he only ever really came into contact with Cley Cerwyn, Alys Karstark, and the other children/teenagers in Winterfell. The North only knows that Jon is Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. I haven't said that Robb's will wouldn't come into play at some point in the future, only that the Northern lords wouldn't accept him as readily as they accepted Robb if R+L=J is true. Even so, Jon is still LC of the Night's Watch and cannot step down to be KitN unless somehow released from his vows or the NW is disbanded. As LC it's his responsibility to fight the Others. Jon won't step down if he's as honorable as his father (Who I believe is Ned).

So what you're saying is that you don't have actually proof? Ya, didn't think so, and I never said they will full out accept him immediately, but I think they will eventually accept him regardless. As for the part about the NW, well again this has been argued at put down many times before so I'm just gonna copy and past an argument I made against this in one of the previous threads lol:

"Let me try to lay this out for you as best as I can. If Jon and the men at the wall were to fight the Others with the manpower and overall resources they currently have then guess what? They would get absolutely obliterated by the Others, it wouldn't even be anything close to a fair fight. The men at the wall currently do not have anywhere near the man power or the resources needed to take on the Others. I get a strong feeling that some ppl on here(not saying you) seem to think that if GRRM does indeed make Jon AA then realistic factors of war like manpower and resources won't matter because Jon will be some sort of one man wrecking crew....Ya that's not really how GRRM novels work. The fact of the matter is Jon whether he likes it or not, will need a higher office of power than just LC of the NW if he hopes to rally the amount of men and recsources the men at the wall desperately need to take on the Others successfully. The fact that the previous LC wrote to all the seven kingdoms that the NW needed help and only one man with the fewest amount of men(Stannis) answered should be proof of that.

As LC can Jon make non-NW members rally to the wall to help fight off the Others? No, as LC can Jon make non NW-members send resources that the men of the wall desperately need? No, as LC will Jon have enough "percieved" power and influence that will cause other lords to listen to him, take his words seriously, and convince them to join his cause? Again no, commander Mormont's failed request for help is proof of that. This is my whole point I think some of you argue that Jon won't become a king because you simply just don't like the idea of him leaving the wall, yet you fail to realize that Jon becoming a king is the best way he can possibly help the men at the wall fight off the Others.

As a king, Jon will be able to command men to go to the wall and help fight of the Others the same way Stannis commanded and marched his men to the wall to help fight of the wildlings. As a king, Jon will have the power to access and give the men at the wall the much needed resources they will need against the Others. As a king, he's got the the other lords of Westeros's attention whether they like him or not. That is what is needed right now, not an LC of the NW but a king.

IMO, this is the reason for Robb's will, I don't think GRRM would have made Robb's will unless he intended for Jon to use it to take the North. He already had Jon reject Stannis's offer, so I don't really see the point in GRRM showing the readers Jon rejecting a second offer. I think Jon will realize that he has to claim a higher position of leadership than he has a LC in order to truly get the men at the wall prepared for the war with the Others and once he is shown Robb's will I think he will be encourage to accept it and ultimately IMO he will."

[Daphnaerys Seaworth]

I really have started fearing about the R+L=J...And my fear is linked directly to the TV series.

R+L=J might actually might turn out not being true afterall because there hasn't been any build up or foreshadowing in the TV show.

This is how I have come to this conclusion.

So D&D know how the story goes as the know how the story ends.Things which are usually left to our imagination in the books, are clearly shown to us and revealed in the TV show.(Either directly and indirectly or with changes to the plot)

Some examples:

1.Readers didn't guess Whitebeard was Selmy but in the TV show there was no Whitebeard.

2.Readers still see Margaery as an innocent teenager,but the TV show has made her true nature and motives clear from the start.

3.The Jeyne Westerling conspiracy theory was completely disproved when the TV producers placed Talisa in the RW.

4.While the book kinda leaves us a tiny hope of Robb surviving the RW...The TV show makes it clear that he is dead.

5.Ramsay was disguising as Reek in the book.TV show showed us Ramsay from the start.

etc.etc.etc.

Which makes me think, if R+L=J is true?Then why haven't we had some clues, some foreshadowing.

TV viewers who haven't read the book at all may not even see this coming, and if it comes will it even matter since many may not even remember who Rhaegar is or who don't know who characters like Arthur Dayne and Howland Reed are?I don't know.

That's why I am worried for this widely accepted theory which I of course subscribe to as well.

[Joe Pine]

Some great posts from Jon Icefyre