Ice and Fire animal project III: Stags

[Mladen]

It's ALIVE!!!!

Thanks for the wonderful project Mladen!

Great post Mladen (again). I don't have any thing to add at this point as I was going to say something about the White Hart...

Thanks guys, yes it's finally ALIVE... As King of the Starks noted, I was expressing my inner GRRM and his predictions about publishing dates...

I seem to have mislaid my copies of Frazier & Campbell, but IIRC, isn't the stag associated with sacred kingship? The king that was wed to the goddess of sovereignty, symbol of the land, became the sacrifice. King Bob's death as the Long Summer ends fits with this. The stag is the Summer King whereas the Wolf is the Winter King. Which makes it particularly interesting that the Young Wolf is named for the old stag! That really makes me wonder about the relationship between the old Storm Kings and the Kings of Winter. Didn't Brandon the Builder supposedly build Storm's End for the Storm King? Hmm.

Nice catch... I especially love the old stag/young wolf, but also there is that young stag/old wolf thing (Joffrey/Ned)...

Another aspect of Norse mythology involving a stag is the legend of Freyj from the Prose Edda

Freyj (the god of summer) spied a giantess in the north that he decided he had to have. He turned to his servant and asked him to woo her on his behalf. The servant replied that he would, only in exchange for Freyj's magic sword. Freyj agrees and later when faced with having to do battle with Beli, he is armed only with the "horn of a hart (stag)". Later he rues the day when Ragnorak approaches that he no longer had his magic sword.

In ASOIAF, Rhaegar's decision to pursue Lyanna, leads to the end of the Targaryen reign in Westeros (House Targaryen the magic sword of Westeros?) House Baratheon takes over (horn of the hart?). Will Westeros rue the day when Martin's Ragnorak comes to pass?

ETA: remember what had killed the giant direwolf, the Starks came across? The horn of a stag.

I am not expert in Norse mythology and that's why we have Mythology subproject in each Animal project so people who do know great things about world's mythologies can offer us, like this one, great insights...

Nothing to add, just want to say I love the posts so far.

ETA: Stags have a linear hierarchy with the more dominant, older males getting more of the females as Robert demonstrates. The older stags are more passive compared to the nervous young bucks and pregnant does, and have a calming effect on the rest of the herd. This aspect is demonstrated when after the eldest stag dies, Robert, the Baratheons and realm fall to pieces.

We'll discuss this in the next essay...

I would like also to thank you all for amazing stories, mythology insights... "Cultural depictions" is an essay where it is made a shorter version of much larger symbolical picture stags had, so naturally some stories had to go... But, I am most interested if some of you would like to explore stag symbolism in variety of literary works and mythologies... You can freely PM me, so we could discuss about it.

[Lord Arryn]

I am not frequent poster, I usually just read but i had to post here that your analyses are brilliant and I look forward to every essay :)

[Associate Maester]

In a swath of Near-Eastern religions; we have the stag viewed as a mediator/communicator between human kings and various gods. We have repeating motifs of kings and gods standing on the back of stags. In some of the more obscure bits of Akkadian we have puns at the expense of defeated kings that they were "taken" from their mounts.

[Miodrag]

As proven by following posts, Mladen's essay was truly an inspiring and rewarding read, packed with an abundance of references to various cultural heritages. One can become an expert in symbolism and zoology both, by consuming a piece like this.

What he emphasized in the conclusion, that stag may be seen as the symbol of the never-ending hunt that changes us, is especially interesting to me, because Stannis' arc is exactly that: his final goal - to serve his duty - is endless by the very definition of a monarch, and the hunt does change Stannis, just as he famously explained in ASOS ("I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne").

One more benefit Mladen's essay provided, is that it reminded me of those ancient tales ASOIAF has a lot in common with. In this case, Aesop's fables. They speak of the time when people delivered moralities through haunting tales, often bleak and always cautionary. It's the very opposite of the dominant cultural model of today, in which moralities are delivered through stories that most often address the pursuit of happiness and offer some kind of hope. Without concluding which `cultural model` is better, I'm just going to say it's impressive that in it's tone ASOIAF has so much more in common with the ancient model, than with the current one.

Once again, congratulations to the author of this essay. ASOIAF fandome can pride itself on this project, just like the project can pride itself on this installment.

[Mladen]

I am not frequent poster, I usually just read but i had to post here that your analyses are brilliant and I look forward to every essay :)

As proven by following posts, Mladen's essay was truly an inspiring and rewarding read, packed with an abundance of references to various cultural heritages. One can become an expert in symbolism and zoology both, by consuming a piece like this.

...

Once again, congratulations to the author of this essay. ASOIAF fandome can pride itself on this project, just like the project can pride itself on this installment.

Thanks guys. Lord Arryn, I hope you will stay and participate more actively on this thread. Miodrag, I genuinely appreciate your opinion, so thank you for kind words and great insight... I am humbled by your praises...

What he emphasized in the conclusion, that stag may be seen as the symbol of the never-ending hunt that changes us, is especially interesting to me, because Stannis' arc is exactly that: his final goal - to serve his duty - is endless by the very definition of a monarch, and the hunt does change Stannis, just as he famously explained in ASOS ("I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne").

More than just hunt that change us, there is certain self-improvement when it comes to hunt and chase. Robert was lost in his gluttony, lust and general over-indulgence, and naturally for the stag, found his death in the woods. Stannis, on the other hand, is someone that is constantly in pursuit of the improvement. Yes, he wants the throne, but he also understands the need of change. Stannis isn't pure absolutist, he does have his code of justice, but that doesn't mean he won't change which the quote you have provided wonderfully.

In a swath of Near-Eastern religions; we have the stag viewed as a mediator/communicator between human kings and various gods. We have repeating motifs of kings and gods standing on the back of stags. In some of the more obscure bits of Akkadian we have puns at the expense of defeated kings that they were "taken" from their mounts.

I am no specialist in Near-Eastern religions, cultures and mythologies, but this has reminded me of an episode of "Heroes" where Hiro talks how his father told him a story in which stags are mediator between Gods and men... :). Thanks for insight... I would like to read more about that.

[Associate Maester]

Thanks guys. Lord Arryn, I hope you will stay and participate more actively on this thread. Miodrag, I genuinely appreciate your opinion, so thank you for kind words and great insight... I am humbled by your praises...

More than just hunt that change us, there is certain self-improvement when it comes to hunt and chase. Robert was lost in his gluttony, lust and general over-indulgence, and naturally for the stag, found his death in the woods. Stannis, on the other hand, is someone that is constantly in pursuit of the improvement. Yes, he wants the throne, but he also understands the need of change. Stannis isn't pure absolutist, he does have his code of justice, but that doesn't mean he won't change which the quote you have provided wonderfully.

I am no specialist in Near-Eastern religions, cultures and mythologies, but this has reminded me of an episode of "Heroes" where Hiro talks how his father told him a story in which stags are mediator between Gods and men... :). Thanks for insight... I would like to read more about that.

I'd be happy to put something together and post it here on stags in Near-Eastern religions. Near-Eastern religion is my area of scholarly expertise.

[Mladen]

I'd be happy to put something together and post it here on stags in Near-Eastern religions. Near-Eastern religion is my area of scholarly expertise.

And this thread will be enriched with that... If you need anything, please PM me.

[Alia of the knife]

Not as familiar with Stags, or their symbology, but I do know, (going to what I'm more familiar with), is that the Native Americans viewed the Stag as both powerful, but gentle as well as wise.

This would not be something that you identified Robert with, but it is something that the whole of the brothers may represent:

Robert: Powerful

Renly: Gentle

Stannis: Wise, (at least in the ways of wanting true justice for people). Stannis does run the risk of breaking if he does not bend, which does not speak to wisdom, however, his desire for "righteousness" connects him to wisdom.

[Mladen]

Not as familiar with Stags, or their symbology, but I do know, (going to what I'm more familiar with), is that the Native Americans viewed the Stag as both powerful, but gentle as well as wise.

This would not be something that you identified Robert with, but it is something that the whole of the brothers may represent:

Robert: Powerful

Renly: Gentle

Stannis: Wise, (at least in the ways of wanting true justice for people). Stannis does run the risk of breaking if he does not bend, which does not speak to wisdom, however, his desire for "righteousness" connects him to wisdom.

I think this parallels with antlers of stag symbolism. The awe-inspiring antlers represent stag's uniqueness and beauty... It is a striking metaphor of one crucial characteristic for each character - Robert has his warrior skills, Renly his clothes and charm, and Stannis his justice... They are dominant traits of these three, and in a way those characteristics represent their "antlers"

But, more about that, in the next essay, that I hope will come in a couple of days...

[Stan the Man Baratheon]

Great Job Mladen. A truly worthwhile read. Btw it comes off as you like Stannis.

[Aderyn]

Again, what can I say, great work!

Stags are also the animals of pride and stubbornness (the latter often seems to be associated with antlered animals, don't you think?) as well as gracefulness. These three aspects can also be connected to the Baratheon stags. Stubbornness is Robert's trademark in many ways, and it is also a significant trait in Stannis. However, while Robert's was primarily a foolish type of stubbornness, not wanting to hear counsel or be told to do anything he didn't want to do, Stannis's stubbornness goes deeper, it has more to do with hard-as-iron endurance. Renly, on the other hand, stubbornly clung to his idealistic vision of a king. Gracefulness is more Renly's thing, although that also fits the young Robert, long before he won the throne. And just like any other man in Westeros, they all have their pride that is the cause of a lot of harm. Robert's pride doesn't (at first) allow him to admit to being a ruin of a man and a poor king. That pride also makes him fall right into Cersei's trap and get killed. Stannis's pride stems from the notion of being the rightful person to rule in his brother's stead, and pursuing that goal almost ends in a tragedy. It is much later that he chooses another path, that which Melisandre has been pulling him toward from the start. Renly's pride, too, was in seeing himself as the rightful ruler but not according to the laws of succession rather than his own notion of a good king that his older brothers both fail to fulfill...

I hope this thread, too, will continue on the topic soon. :)

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Just Reading this great thread again, and said to myself, what a hell, this diserves a bump!

[Marcus Agrippa]

This is really good. The stag has always been the one of the two house sigils that seem out of place to me. Dragons, Dire wolves, krakens, the sun with the spear, and the lion represent some sort of strength. The rose makes sense for the reach. It was the stag and the trout seemed to be out of place. This clears up the end game for stannis a little more. Is there any unique stories on the Doe? Shireen is the last living doe if you discount roberts bastards.

[Alia of the knife]

In Viking mythology, the Yggdrasil, or world tree that connects the nine worlds, houses several creatures that live within:

- The Wyrm, (dragon) Niohoggr

- An eagle

- The stags, Dainn, Dvalinn, Duneyrr, and Durapror.

They represent the four seasons, or four elements.

Also, both Celtic and Native American cultures prayed to them for a good hunt and promised to take no more than was their due. They are also a symbol for intuition, strength and unconditional love in Native American myth, as well as sensitivity.

- Robert: Strength and stubborness.

- Stannis: Actually, sensitivity (I would also suggest sensitivity given the episode when he was little and cried for his injured bird), which would also explain his sometimes overreaction regarding his rigidity and refusal of flexibility.

- Renly: Dicipline as he was not given to the same gluttony that Robert was though some thought him frivolous.

[Mladen]

Just Reading this great thread again, and said to myself, what a hell, this diserves a bump!

Thank you for the bump. I expect that this summer, I will return to Animal project with new pieces... I can't promise anything but I do plan to finish this...

In Viking mythology, the Yggdrasil, or world tree that connects the nine worlds, houses several creatures that live within:

- The Wyrm, (dragon) Niohoggr

- An eagle

- The stags, Dainn, Dvalinn, Duneyrr, and Durapror.

In the opening essay, there is reference to 4 stags nibbling Yggdrasil paralleling HotU vision... TBH, I am extremely proud of that reference... :)

- Robert: Strength and stubborness.

- Stannis: Actually, sensitivity (I would also suggest sensitivity given the episode when he was little and cried for his injured bird), which would also explain his sometimes overreaction regarding his rigidity and refusal of flexibility.

- Renly: Dicipline as he was not given to the same gluttony that Robert was though some thought him frivolous.

This is something I planned to focus in the next essay. Robert's warrior skill, Stannis' sense of justice, Renly's pageantry, all are powerful and defining characteristics of each and every one of them, making them unique, just as the specific antlers make stags unique in their own way.

[Alia of the knife]

Thank you for the bump. I expect that this summer, I will return to Animal project with new pieces... I can't promise anything but I do plan to finish this...

In the opening essay, there is reference to 4 stags nibbling Yggdrasil paralleling HotU vision... TBH, I am extremely proud of that reference... :)

This is something I planned to focus in the next essay. Robert's warrior skill, Stannis' sense of justice, Renly's pageantry, all are powerful and defining characteristics of each and every one of them, making them unique, just as the specific antlers make stags unique in their own way.

You should be proud of all your work. :bowdown:

[Direwolf Resilience]

I love your brains, Mladen! Thank you so much for blessing people hooked to the deeper things in literature with great essays like yours.

[Seams]

In ACOK, Bronn reports to Tyrion on the status of Tommen. He reports that Tommen has a second pet fawn - the first one had been killed by Joffrey who had it skinned and made into a jerkin.

This seems to fit with the stag = Baratheon motif, if you accept that Joffrey and Tommen are both Baratheons. One fawn dies but another takes its place. Or maybe the fawn vignette underscores that the two boys are false Baratheons: wearing the skin of a young deer (or keeping a pet deer) does not make you a deer.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

I dunno it fits there or not, but there's a story/legend/fairy tale in my country. It says that guys called Hunor and Magor were on a hunting. They found a splendid stag and they wanted to kill it. They chased the stag for more days and lost the way back to their homeland, also the stag disappeared, but it led them to new lands, where they founded their own nation, the Huns and the Magyars.

Also, this one is not about stag, but our first Christian king had a son who supposed to build a new country, but a boar killed him during a hunting. Just say that coz of the stag-boar thingy.