"Sweetness" as a Negative in ASOIAF, The Blue Flower in the Wall of Ice, and Dany's Future

[MikeDC]

Lots of interesting stuff here. I dunno. Couldn't the "sweet=death" imagery just refer to the fact that Jon is, you know, dead when Dany meets him?

He's reborn somehow, which is a clever way to get a girl's attention. Most likely it distract's her from her quest to the Iron Throne and to Jon's quest of stopping the Others (in which he'll be even more single-minded after dying, because it's established that undead people become more single-minded. So in that sense, Dany's love for Jon will cause her, somehow, to not get the throne.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

The wights get a second life, of sorts. One that is filled with death.

Good point.

[Queen Elsa]

Not sure how to interpret this but in ADWD, Jon describes Satin's voice as sweet as song while he's taking the NW oath in the Haunted Forest. Jon also smells the sweet scent Satin combed into his beard while the others smell of fear and musky. If sweet=death/treachery/etc., something is definitely fishy about Satin. Also, he doesn't worship the Old Gods but what change his mind to take his oath in front of a weirwood tree?

[Newstar]

Can't believe I forgot about Sweets, Yezzan's favourite treasure, although Sweets didn't seem as bad as some of the others in ASOIAF with "Sweet" in their nicknames.

[Fire Eater]

"Ser Gregor does look lonely," said Tyene in her sweet septa's voice.

Tyene is deadly with her knowledge of poisons, or this could foreshadow her death.

Lord Ramsay is a . . . a sweet man

That he is

For the sweet each guest was served a skull of spun sugar. When the crust was broken, they found sweet custard inside.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

The fat man dabbed grease from his lips. “I am an old man, grown weary of this world and its

treacheries. Is it so strange that I should wish to do some good before my days are done, to help a sweet

young girl regain her birthright?”

Next you will be offering me a suit of magic armor and a palace in Valyria. “If Daenerys is no

more than a sweet young girl, the Iron Throne will cut her into sweet young pieces.”

This is interesting too.

“This is a sweet city,” Quentyn agreed. Sweet enough to rot your teeth

On Astapor.

The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter

Slynt isnt sweet afterall.

“Tell the boy I am sorry that I will not be with him for

his wedding. I will rejoin you in Westeros. That I swear, by my sweet Serra’s hands.”

Could mean Serra is a Blackfyre.

“As he loved you.” Dany stroked the girl’s hair. “Say the word, my sweet, and I will send you

from this awful place. I will find a ship somehow and send you home. To Naath.”

I think Missandei could be bad, Dany always says her voice is sweet.

Xaro gave a languid shrug. “As it happens, when I came ashore in your sweet city, I chanced to

see upon the riverbank a man who had once been a guest in my manse, a merchant who dealt in rare

spices and choice wines. He was naked from the waist up, red and peeling, and seemed to be digging a

hole.”

Mereen isnt sweet.

There is alot Ill go through them next time.

[Newstar]

"Ser Gregor does look lonely," said Tyene in her sweet septa's voice.

Hahaha, "sweet" Tyene is definitely bad news.

"Said sweetly" or similar looks like it could often be interpreted as "said with elaborately false good cheer" or "lied": "You speak sweetly, Xaro, but underneath your words I hear another no."

Margaery smiled sweetly at the PW feast.

Cersei thanked Sansa sweetly for confessing her father's plans in AGOT.

Bran, shortly before happening upon Cersei and Jaime in AGOT: "He liked the deep, sweet ache it left in the muscles afterward. He liked the way the air tasted way up high, sweet and cold as a winter peach."

Joffrey sings for Sansa as they ride together in AGOT, "his voice high and sweet and pure." (Marillion has a sweet singing voice as well.)

[LordStoneheart]

Just like Uncat, even though she is getting revenge her life isn't sweet, its full of hatred and she is a darker Cat.

This could also relate to Jon if he has a second life, meaning he will be more darker.

But revenge is pretty sweet...

[Arya kiddin']

Hahaha, "sweet" Tyene is definitely bad news.

"Said sweetly" or similar looks like it could often be interpreted as "said with elaborately false good cheer" or "lied": "You speak sweetly, Xaro, but underneath your words I hear another no."

Margaery smiled sweetly at the PW feast.

Cersei thanked Sansa sweetly for confessing her father's plans in AGOT.

Bran, shortly before happening upon Cersei and Jaime in AGOT: "He liked the deep, sweet ache it left in the muscles afterward. He liked the way the air tasted way up high, sweet and cold as a winter peach."

Joffrey sings for Sansa as they ride together in AGOT, "his voice high and sweet and pure." (Marillion has a sweet singing voice as well.)

You should add these to the original post. :)

[Newstar]

I edited the OP to add those quotes, as well as the quotes from Fire Eater and Queen Alysanne.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

But revenge is pretty sweet...

sweet in a dark poisonous way

[Audrey Arryn]

Amazing thread thanks to all those involved.

[LordStoneheart]

sweet in a dark poisonous way

Yep.

[Dr. Pepper]

In another thread, Greymoon pointed out Dany's silver mare as a pale mare. I've not performed a search for any pale mare mentions in the text to see the pattern, but given the pale mare arriving with the bloody flux in Meereen and a pale horse generally indicating death, it's yet another negative connotation to this 'bride of fire' sequence. With the pale mare, the corpse on the prow of a ship and sweetness in a chink of ice, it's all definitely appearing to add up as a whole lot of negative going on.

It does seem like the two of the mother of dragons sequences have quite negative leans to them (daughter of death, bride of fire). Perhaps another look at the three things mentioned in the 'slayer of lies' sequence is necessary. (king with no shadow, mummer's dragon, stone beast)

Its not just the sweetness though, its that the rose was put right before the 'bride of fire' wording by the undying, and second after a reference to her night with Drogo. The sweetness is very weak evidence for marriage, but bride of fire is pretty good. Or its at least not nothing.

It's probably not nothing, but it seems unlikely that it's the something that's often speculated. A few lines before this, Dany is called daughter of death after visions of Viserys, (presumably) future Rhaego, and Rhaegar. She's not a daughter to any of them. If one set of visions is not describing a literal daughter, why would another set literally describe a three-time bride?

[Greymoon]

In another thread, Greymoon pointed out Dany's silver mare as a pale mare. I've not performed a search for any pale mare mentions in the text to see the pattern, but given the pale mare arriving with the bloody flux in Meereen and a pale horse generally indicating death, it's yet another negative connotation to this 'bride of fire' sequence. With the pale mare, the corpse on the prow of a ship and sweetness in a chink of ice, it's all definitely appearing to add up as a whole lot of negative going on.

It does seem like the two of the mother of dragons sequences have quite negative leans to them (daughter of death, bride of fire). Perhaps another look at the three things mentioned in the 'slayer of lies' sequence is necessary. (king with no shadow, mummer's dragon, stone beast)

It's probably not nothing, but it seems unlikely that it's the something that's often speculated. A few lines before this, Dany is called daughter of death after visions of Viserys, (presumably) future Rhaego, and Rhaegar. She's not a daughter to any of them. If one set of visions is not describing a literal daughter, why would another set literally describe a three-time bride?

Isn't Arya also called "Child of Death"?

There is mutiple symbolism for the white/pale horse :

• the white horse is the horse of the hero/warrior/prince charming in fairy tales - except in Terry Practchett's Discworld series, where Death rides a white horse. And we know that GRRM likes to subvert fantasy tropes.
  
• In Norse culture the white horse is portent of death, and
  
• "In the New Testament, the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse include one seated on a white horse and one on a pale horse - the pale horse carried the rider, Death..." quoted from Wiki
  
• "Later in the Book of Revelation, Christ rides a white horse out of heaven at the head of the armies of heaven to judge and make war upon the earth" also quoted from Wiki
  
• In Tarot cards, Death is riding a white horse, too.
  

Pale in mythology may mean white or grey. Dany's silver mare could announce death or a hero figure...I lean towards the former because I think there's also something to be said about the dragon's colors, and Drogo in particular being Black, a color that has quite a few negative connotations >> I'm arguing from the perspective of consistent symbolism. ;)

@ DenysJelmazmo I'll have to agree with Dr. Pepper, 'bride of fire' IMO, does not indicate a marriage, and if it does it's not a literal one.

Dany "marrying" fire could mean anything- death, destruction, conquest, violence...chaos, the dragons etc. or it may simply refer to the event of Dany walking into the pyre. She "married" fire that day and as a result of that "union" she "birthed" dragons.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

I always assumed "bride of fire" meant she married fire during Drogo's funeral pyre just like Bran wedded a weirwood tree.

Also Mel is wedded to fire in a way thats why she can see visions through fire, just like Bran can see past through the weirwood tree.

[Greymoon]

About the 'sweet' and 'sweetness'...it seems to me that quite a few of the quotes in the OP are rhetorical figures. Not least of all oxymorons, irony and antithetical word uses, that in many instances express sarcasm. So...I'm not convinced that 'sweet' has a negative meaning, or negative connotations in general in the books...

""O heavy lightness! Serious vanity!

Mis-shapen chaos of well-seeming forms!

Feather of lead, bright smoke, cold fire, sick health!" from Shakespeare

You may try to convince me if you wish, but this is how I see it:

Oxymorons/oppositions

• "A foul, sweet smell rose from the wound..." (Drogo's death)
  
• "There was a smell of death about that room; a heavy smell, sweet and foul, clinging."
  
• "[ser Willem] never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odour."
  
• The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter.
  
• "The smell of [Jorah Mormont's] sweat was an earthy answer to the sweet perfumes that drenched the Astapori." A direct opposition is build between Jorah/Astapori
  

Irony:

• Sweetrobin
  
• Raff the Sweetling
  
• "The wizards were beckoning her with voices sweeter than song. She ran from them, Drogon flying back down to her."
  
• "If you would savour the sweet taste of the fruit, you must water the tree." "This tree has been watered with blood."
  
• "'Sweetness cloys. Tart fruit and tart women give life its savour.' Xaro took another bite, chewed, and swallowed."
  
• Joffrey sings for Sansa as they ride together in AGOT, "his voice high and sweet and pure."
  
• Marillion has a "sweet" tenor voice.
  
• Cersei thanked Sansa sweetly for confessing her father's plans in AGOT.
  
• Margaery smiled sweetly at the PW feast.
  

Obvious sarcasm:

• Cersei ("My sweet sister”)
  
• "'The Qartheen themselves seem sweet enough to my nose.' 'Sweet smells are sometimes used to cover foul ones.'"
  
• "'This is a sweet city,' Quentyn agreed. Sweet enough to rot your teeth."
  
• “If Daenerys is no more than a sweet young girl, the Iron Throne will cut her into sweet young pieces.”
  
• Dany is addressed as "sweet queen" by untrustworthy people.
  
• "Ser Gregor does look lonely," said Tyene in her sweet septa's voice.
  
• "Lord Ramsay is a...a sweet man”
  
• Joffrey tells Sansa "Your sweet words have moved me."
  

[J. Stargaryen]

About the 'sweet' and 'sweetness'...it seems to me that quite a few of the quotes in the OP are rhetorical figures. Not least of all oxymorons, irony and antithetical word uses, that in many instances express sarcasm. So...I'm not convinced that 'sweet' has a negative meaning, or negative connotations in general in the books...

""O heavy lightness! Serious vanity!

Mis-shapen chaos of well-seeming forms!

Feather of lead, bright smoke, cold fire, sick health!" from Shakespeare

You may try to convince me if you wish, but this is how I see it:

Oxymorons/oppositions

• "A foul, sweet smell rose from the wound..." (Drogo's death)
  
• "There was a smell of death about that room; a heavy smell, sweet and foul, clinging."
  
• "[ser Willem] never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odour."
  
• The smile that Lord Janos Slynt smiled then had all the sweetness of rancid butter.
  
• "The smell of [Jorah Mormont's] sweat was an earthy answer to the sweet perfumes that drenched the Astapori." A direct opposition is build between Jorah/Astapori
  

Irony:

• Sweetrobin
  
• Raff the Sweetling
  
• "The wizards were beckoning her with voices sweeter than song. She ran from them, Drogon flying back down to her."
  
• "If you would savour the sweet taste of the fruit, you must water the tree." "This tree has been watered with blood."
  
• "'Sweetness cloys. Tart fruit and tart women give life its savour.' Xaro took another bite, chewed, and swallowed."
  
• Joffrey sings for Sansa as they ride together in AGOT, "his voice high and sweet and pure."
  
• Marillion has a "sweet" tenor voice.
  
• Cersei thanked Sansa sweetly for confessing her father's plans in AGOT.
  
• Margaery smiled sweetly at the PW feast.
  

Obvious sarcasm:

• Cersei ("My sweet sister”)
  
• "'The Qartheen themselves seem sweet enough to my nose.' 'Sweet smells are sometimes used to cover foul ones.'"
  
• "'This is a sweet city,' Quentyn agreed. Sweet enough to rot your teeth."
  
• “If Daenerys is no more than a sweet young girl, the Iron Throne will cut her into sweet young pieces.”
  
• Dany is addressed as "sweet queen" by untrustworthy people.
  
• "Ser Gregor does look lonely," said Tyene in her sweet septa's voice.
  
• "Lord Ramsay is a...a sweet man”
  
• Joffrey tells Sansa "Your sweet words have moved me."
  

This is all just evidence for the OP, especially as it relates to the HotU vision of a blue rose filling the air with sweetness.

[FooFighterDDS]

I really can't see Jon and Dany being a couple. I associate the "sweetness" in the vision as a reference to Jon's character. The possibility of it meaning an antagonistic relationship with Dany is well within the realm of possibility. I still think it means Jon will be lit up in a pyre (bride of fire vision) to awaken as the song of ice and fire.

[Greymoon]

This is all just evidence for the OP, especially as it relates to the HotU vision of a blue rose filling the air with sweetness.

The point is that I'm not convinced, because there is a difference between a word having a negative connotation by virtue of the way the author uses it - as in, it generally has a different meaning and therefore always stands for a particular symbolism - and the author making ample use of oxymorons, oppositions, irony and sarcasm... But I suppose it depends on how you look at it. For me, there is no particular negative vibe to the word. It's just a matter of context, and I don't think the context of the sweet smelling rose allows us to conclude that there is a particular figure of speech used there and that the 'sweetness' in that context means more than its first literal interpretation.

For me, the sweetness spreading in the air was more of a symbol for the positive changes Jon was trying to bring about. It all went to hell, but the fact remains that he did make some pretty good decisions, and that the watch is/was doomed without reforms.