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Angalin

R+L=J v.60

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Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:

Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:

Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?

Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?

Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?

The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?

Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?

The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?

Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?

Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v 58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v 59" (thread fifty-nine)

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Well damn. :bowdown:

On behalf of everyone who has done that before me, thanks. One person or another has been doing it for several threads now. I just figured it was my turn. :)

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Are we eligible for social security yet?

62, so this baby is still a workin.

What to talk about? Wylla being Jon's mother??? That may have flown in the 50's but this is the 60's plus it's stupid and over covered.

Dany being fire proof and jon not being fire proof? Over used, over covered, over done, and everyone is pretty much over it.

Soooo any ideas? Something good so I don't have to go off on a Wonder Woman tangent because the same topic has been beaten to death. Of course we still love you Lynda, but it's a Jon and his parents thread.

Ashara Dayne? I think Ashara actually killed herself at the thought of another Ashara is Jon's mother topic.

So how about... Can Aegon actually be Jon's brother and the plans actually begins with Jon Connington giving Aegon over to Varys for unkown reasons and, and???? No it's to lame I can't do it, and I spent all day building up good will and that would just wreck it.

Somebody must have an interesting idea.

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@ Jon Stargayen

I catch it know. You argue because you misread.

There's no prerequisite to be one of the dragon's head. A bastard or a king could be, as long as the dragon obliges.

Jon is a bastard, one of the heads, AAR, and he will lead the host to fight the Others.

Otoh, he won't be king, he's not into it.

As for the IT, he's never crossed the Neck, and it's doubtful he'll ever does.

As for the north, the has stated explicitly that he doesn't find fit to deprive a brother from his rights. He's been ofered and he has refused. When he founds there are Starks left, he'll gladly resign.

On top of that, he was acting as a joint leader when he was stabbed. He don't need no fucking crown.

All this is very clearly stated in the text. Who's clinging to predefined ideas?

Coming back to R+L=J. Why so, if Jon's getting his army without being aware of it?

The answer lies in Bin Ben Plumm. The dragons like him, probably because of some drops of Targ blood. Jon doesn't need a crown, but he needs dragons.

And some crackpotting. Well, it's me.

Jon's no Stark. If he were legitimate, he'll be a Targ. The Starks are not his brothers or sisters.

GRRM's irony: when he was made to talk about brother's rights, in fact it was meant to his brother Aegon's rights.

I'll leave the heavier crackpot for a better moment.

Eta: ups, @Jon Icefire, of course.

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I only check in on this thread occasionally now (y'all have gotten a little repetitive dontchaknow :rolleyes: ) but it seems to me one of the most fertile grounds for discussion remaining is exactly how the 'abduction' went down. I know the subject pops up occasionaly and I have seen some extensive theories (such as Ran's analyis that puts Lyanna at Harrenhal) but I don't think there is a consensus yet.

A few starting points:

How many references to the 'abduction' itself do we have? I think Bran and maybe Dany know versions where she was taken 'at swordpoint' but does it come up in the POV of anyone alive at the time and what wording do they use?

Rhaegar seems like he was usually pretty in control of himself, what prompted him to act rashly? If something in KL upset him why had he not calmed down before reaching Lyanna in the Riverlands?

Can we agree that the widely known version of the story including 'at swordpoint' means this happened away from a castle or Rhaegar would be known as a breaker of guest right?

Were swords actually drawn or is that just what Brandon was told? Who told him? Her brothers were not present but maybe other lordlings or retainers were.

All of this comes back to: if Lyanna and Rhaegar had an understanding, why did it appear to be a kidnapping? IMO perhaps Lyanna wanted to be with Rhaegar but disagreed with his methods and her retainers misunderstood when they reported back to Brandon.

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I only check in on this thread occasionally now (y'all have gotten a little repetitive dontchaknow :rolleyes: ) but it seems to me one of the most fertile grounds for discussion remaining is exactly how the 'abduction' went down. I know the subject pops up occasionaly and I have seen some extensive theories (such as Ran's analyis that puts Lyanna at Harrenhal) but I don't think there is a consensus yet.

A few starting points:

How many references to the 'abduction' itself do we have? I think Bran and maybe Dany know versions where she was taken 'at swordpoint' but does it come up in the POV of anyone alive at the time and what wording do they use?

Rhaegar seems like he was usually pretty in control of himself, what prompted him to act rashly? If something in KL upset him why had he not calmed down before reaching Lyanna in the Riverlands?

Can we agree that the widely known version of the story including 'at swordpoint' means this happened away from a castle or Rhaegar would be known as a breaker of guest right?

Were swords actually drawn or is that just what Brandon was told? Who told him? Her brothers were not present but maybe other lordlings or retainers were.

All of this comes back to: if Lyanna and Rhaegar had an understanding, why did it appear to be a kidnapping? IMO perhaps Lyanna wanted to be with Rhaegar but disagreed with his methods and her retainers misunderstood when they reported back to Brandon.

I've noticed that GRRM for some time gave the clues in couples of chapters linked together. In BAD, while the battle before Yunkai, BS tells Danaerys about Rhaegar in tourneys, and how he won HH, and crowned Lyanna.

We should know by now that Arya is kinda Lyanna's token. The next chapter she's talking with Ned Dayne, who's depicted with hair more ash that gold, and eyes so deep blue that seem purple: Rhaegar's features! They're leaving Gendry behind, and when he bitches about, Arya throws him a crabapple. Well, you know how this goes, it's GRRM's way of giving clues.

I repeat frequently that the "abduction" at swordpoint is to represent that Rhaegar stealed Lyanna the wildlings' way. She never cut his throat with a knive, but had his son. She should agree...

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Stumbled upon a pretty decent short Rhaegar tribute on Youtube:

Wow this one is a really good R+L=J vid as well:

The actor for Rhaegar in this one isn't nearly as ideal as the first one I posted IMO, but the sequences are spot on, I mean absolutely incredible!

Very good vids. Jessica Brown-Findlay has always been my dreamcast Lyanna btw. Yeah, in these fanvids Rhaegar is usually the weak link. In all honesty I wouldn't know where to find good scenes with the right 'face' (some Scandinavian period drama?). A very daunting casting indeed.

The following vids are my favourite, editing perfection:

It's just a matter of suspension of disbelief when it comes to Rhaegar lol

What is the significance of this?If and when Jon knows this wouldn't Jon still be like I am Ned's son not a targaryen.

I deem Jon's character to be a bit more 'convoluted' than this. What about shock? What about betrayal for having been denied the truth all these years? What about pain for all his losses? Confusion for a destructured identity? What about the burden of the blood legacy? What about acceptance and responsibility? I think the dramatic potential for such a revelation is far more thrilling and complicated than a simple 'hey, I'm Ned's son, not a Targaryen'.

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Very good vids. Jessica Brown-Findlay has always been my dreamcast Lyanna btw. Yeah, in these fanvids Rhaegar is usually the weak link. In all honesty I wouldn't know where to find good scenes with the right 'face' (some Scandinavian period drama?). A very daunting casting indeed.

The following vids are my favourite, editing perfection:

It's just a matter of suspension of disbelief when it comes to Rhaegar lol

I deem Jon's character to be a bit more 'convoluted' than this. What about shock? What about betrayal for having been denied the truth all these years? What about pain for all his losses? Confusion for a destructured identity? What about the burden of the blood legacy? What about acceptance and responsibility? I think the dramatic potential for such a revelation is far more thrilling and complicated than a simple 'hey, I'm Ned's son, not a Targaryen'.

There are just two books left, it must be more straightforward.

Some have killed the boy, now he'll severe the strings to be a puppet no more. The mighty warrior in him will live. Where lurks the power?

Eta: do you remember Achiles' choice?

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I deem Jon's character to be a bit more 'convoluted' than this. What about shock? What about betrayal for having been denied the truth all these years? What about pain for all his losses? Confusion for a destructured identity? What about the burden of the blood legacy? What about acceptance and responsibility? I think the dramatic potential for such a revelation is far more thrilling and complicated than a simple 'hey, I'm Ned's son, not a Targaryen'.

Yes, I agree. I believe that he will still identify himself mostly as a Stark, but I don't think think he'll just say "No, this isn't true. I'm still Ned's son and that's that.". He will feel confused, shocked, angry, betrayed and, I imagine, many other emotions.

Wouldn't it be nice if he was like "So... I get a wolf and a dragon? Cool!"? (I am, of course, joking!) :P

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The thing that keeps throwing me about R+L=J(and I'm sure it's been brought up before, so forgive me that) is the whole warging thing.

Some of the Stark children seem to have a talent for it; Bran and Arya.

Some of them don't; Robb (as far as we know) and Sansa

Some we're not sure about; Rickon

But Jon can clearly do it. Maybe not to the extent that Bran can, but he has definitely warged Ghost. Here's where it gets muddy for me...

Thus far, in the series, we've met 5 wargs; Jon, Bran, Arya, Varamyr and Borroq. There have been references to others, but we've actually met these 5. Of these 5, Varamyr and Borroq were both trained in the art. Jon, Bran and Arya were not, seeming to indicate that they have a natural talent for it and suggesting it might be something to do with their bloodline.

Yet, there's no mention of any previous Stark having this talent. At least, not that I can remember. Ned certainly didn't have it. There's no reference made to Brandon having it. Or Rickard. Or, more importantly, Lyanna. Since this talent is extremely rare and obviously quite useful, it's absurd to think that, if any of the previous Starks did have it, that it would just never be mentioned.

If Jon is indeed the son of Rhaegar, does that mean the talent is only passed through the female bloodline? If so, how do Arya and Bran have it? If it's only passed through the male bloodline, then how does Jon have it? If it's an overall Stark talent, why isn't there any mention of any other Stark having it? If it's just a freak genetic mutation, what are the chances that 3 of the 5 people we've seen that can do it (and the only 3 south of the wall) are all from the same family?

The only way this really works is if Bran, Arya and Jon all have a common parent, IMHO

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