R+L=J v.60

[Ygrain]

The thing that keeps throwing me about R+L=J(and I'm sure it's been brought up before, so forgive me that) is the whole warging thing.

Some of the Stark children seem to have a talent for it; Bran and Arya.

Some of them don't; Robb (as far as we know) and Sansa

Some we're not sure about; Rickon

But Jon can clearly do it. Maybe not to the extent that Bran can, but he has definitely warged Ghost. Here's where it gets muddy for me...

Thus far, in the series, we've met 5 wargs; Jon, Bran, Arya, Varamyr and Borroq. There have been references to others, but we've actually met these 5. Of these 5, Varamyr and Borroq were both trained in the art. Jon, Bran and Arya were not, seeming to indicate that they have a natural talent for it and suggesting it might be something to do with their bloodline.

Yet, there's no mention of any previous Stark having this talent. At least, not that I can remember. Ned certainly didn't have it. There's no reference made to Brandon having it. Or Rickard. Or, more importantly, Lyanna. Since this talent is extremely rare and obviously quite useful, it's absurd to think that, if any of the previous Starks did have it, that it would just never be mentioned.

If Jon is indeed the son of Rhaegar, does that mean the talent is only passed through the female bloodline? If so, how do Arya and Bran have it? If it's only passed through the male bloodline, then how does Jon have it? If it's an overall Stark talent, why isn't there any mention of any other Stark having it? If it's just a freak genetic mutation, what are the chances that 3 of the 5 people we've seen that can do it (and the only 3 south of the wall) are all from the same family?

The only way this really works is if Bran, Arya and Jon all have a common parent, IMHO

It has been confirmed by GRRM that all the Stark kids are wargs.

[Lord Bronn of Sunspear]

I believe the ones south of the wall would never have discovered it if they had not found the direwolves. Those who have had training or mentors know to start with a dog, bird, or something simple. Whereas a wolf needs to have a lifelong connection to be warged. Since the stark children (jon included) had their direwolves from pups, they had that starting advantage. But the older generations (Rickard, Lyanna, etc) didnt have this, and didnt out of thw blue say "im gonna be a dog today"

ETA this means jon didnt need to have the same parents to warg like the other children, maybe just having stark blood is enough.

But back to the R+L=J, i dont think Targ blood would have anything to do with that, having Lyanna for a mother would be enough

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

The thing that keeps throwing me about R+L=J(and I'm sure it's been brought up before, so forgive me that) is the whole warging thing.

Some of the Stark children seem to have a talent for it; Bran and Arya.

Some of them don't; Robb (as far as we know) and Sansa

Some we're not sure about; Rickon

But Jon can clearly do it. Maybe not to the extent that Bran can, but he has definitely warged Ghost. Here's where it gets muddy for me...

Thus far, in the series, we've met 5 wargs; Jon, Bran, Arya, Varamyr and Borroq. There have been references to others, but we've actually met these 5. Of these 5, Varamyr and Borroq were both trained in the art. Jon, Bran and Arya were not, seeming to indicate that they have a natural talent for it and suggesting it might be something to do with their bloodline.

Yet, there's no mention of any previous Stark having this talent. At least, not that I can remember. Ned certainly didn't have it. There's no reference made to Brandon having it. Or Rickard. Or, more importantly, Lyanna. Since this talent is extremely rare and obviously quite useful, it's absurd to think that, if any of the previous Starks did have it, that it would just never be mentioned.

If Jon is indeed the son of Rhaegar, does that mean the talent is only passed through the female bloodline? If so, how do Arya and Bran have it? If it's only passed through the male bloodline, then how does Jon have it? If it's an overall Stark talent, why isn't there any mention of any other Stark having it? If it's just a freak genetic mutation, what are the chances that 3 of the 5 people we've seen that can do it (and the only 3 south of the wall) are all from the same family?

The only way this really works is if Bran, Arya and Jon all have a common parent, IMHO

Regarding the Starks' warging abilities, it has been noted that Robb most likely warged Grey Wind in dreams(see the discovery of the pass around the Golden Tooth) Since we never had a Robb POV, we really can't judge the extent of it. The possibility (some may even say probability) is there though. As far as other members of the family, we don't have much information on them. Certainly not enough to determine that none of the previous Starks had it. I think it extremely unlikely it would be common knowledge if they did, since it's a vastly misunderstood and (to some) frightening ability. You do remember though, that all the old Kings in the Stark crypts are depicted with direwolves at their feet? As if they were some sort of familiar? Also, many have speculated about Brandon's and particularly Lyanna's oft mentioned affinity for horses. Never having had a POV from either, it's impossible to know if that was just good horsemanship or some other, more supernatural, ability.

I don't know why an ability that passes through a family bloodline would require a common parent? The other wargs we are introduced to-- VS and Borroq-- certainly didn't have one. It seems pretty clear from the Varamyr story that he was unique in his family, and was cast out because of it. Also, you left out Bloodraven who is an extremely powerful warg and is descended from both Targaryens and a family with blood of FM.

Truly, I don't think you make this argument in light of the information (limited as it is) that we have.

ETA- plus what Ygrain said ;)

[Jorelle Mormont]

The thing that keeps throwing me about R+L=J(and I'm sure it's been brought up before, so forgive me that) is the whole warging thing.

Some of the Stark children seem to have a talent for it; Bran and Arya.

Some of them don't; Robb (as far as we know) and Sansa

Some we're not sure about; Rickon

But Jon can clearly do it. Maybe not to the extent that Bran can, but he has definitely warged Ghost. Here's where it gets muddy for me...

Thus far, in the series, we've met 5 wargs; Jon, Bran, Arya, Varamyr and Borroq. There have been references to others, but we've actually met these 5. Of these 5, Varamyr and Borroq were both trained in the art. Jon, Bran and Arya were not, seeming to indicate that they have a natural talent for it and suggesting it might be something to do with their bloodline.

Yet, there's no mention of any previous Stark having this talent. At least, not that I can remember. Ned certainly didn't have it. There's no reference made to Brandon having it. Or Rickard. Or, more importantly, Lyanna. Since this talent is extremely rare and obviously quite useful, it's absurd to think that, if any of the previous Starks did have it, that it would just never be mentioned.

If Jon is indeed the son of Rhaegar, does that mean the talent is only passed through the female bloodline? If so, how do Arya and Bran have it? If it's only passed through the male bloodline, then how does Jon have it? If it's an overall Stark talent, why isn't there any mention of any other Stark having it? If it's just a freak genetic mutation, what are the chances that 3 of the 5 people we've seen that can do it (and the only 3 south of the wall) are all from the same family?

The only way this really works is if Bran, Arya and Jon all have a common parent, IMHO

Skinchanging may be autosomal codominant or similar (like the sickle cell trait or CYP2D6 metabolism), with variable phenotype depending on environment.

This would probably mean that many Starks/First Men are carriers, there will be those with multiple genes expressed who are naturally better (Varamyr perhaps) but others who might have their greater ability triggered by trauma (Bran, Arya, possibly Sansa with her birds). It may also be enhanced by having a bonded animal, i.e. the direwolves.

Jon may be a more interesting case because he seems to have inherited both the skinchanging trait and the prophetic/symbolic dream trait which may account for the weird Ghost dream (Bran and Arya have more straightforward direwolf experiences).

[Buried Treasure]

The latest generation of Starks got Direwolves - seemingly as a gift from the old gods. If the gods would give them magical animals why would the gods not also give them magical warging abilities, otherwise the old gods would risk the Starks being slain by the wild beasts they have no way of controlling. The kids were not picked for gifts from the gods because of their bloodline - as Jon points out half the noble families of the north share that blood through intermarriage and no dounbt plenty of peasants born on the wrong side of the bed too. They were picked by the old gods (or Bloodraven if you prefer) because they are the Starks of Winterfell and thus the family unit that the north would look to lead in the war against the others. The gods could see the war coming and they woud know (not through prophecy, just through basic understanding of feudal power structures) which family was most likely to produce the needed hero - so the gods did their best to arm that family with a useful weapon.

[MtnLion]

The only way this really works is if Bran, Arya and Jon all have a common parent, IMHO

There is an SSM that GRRM said that all of the current generation of Stark children can warg. You also seem to interchange skin-changing into your argument, but fail to mention the Mormonts and their suspected skin-changing with bears. But, you seem to argue that it must be patrilineal, The answer still remains that Jon is half Stark just as Bran, Arya, Robb, Sansa and Rickon are. Traits are not strictly patrilineal or matrilineal, and we don't know why all of the Stark kings had dire wolves at their feet in the crypts; though I suspect that many were wargs.

ETA; Oh, wow, multi- :ninja:

[Jorelle Mormont]

You also seem to interchange shim-changing into your argument, but fail to mention the Mormonts and their suspected skin-changing with bears.

This, and the rumours about the Skagosi.

[Alia of the knife]

I only check in on this thread occasionally now (y'all have gotten a little repetitive dontchaknow :rolleyes: ) but it seems to me one of the most fertile grounds for discussion remaining is exactly how the 'abduction' went down. I know the subject pops up occasionaly and I have seen some extensive theories (such as Ran's analyis that puts Lyanna at Harrenhal) but I don't think there is a consensus yet.

A few starting points:

How many references to the 'abduction' itself do we have? I think Bran and maybe Dany know versions where she was taken 'at swordpoint' but does it come up in the POV of anyone alive at the time and what wording do they use?

Rhaegar seems like he was usually pretty in control of himself, what prompted him to act rashly? If something in KL upset him why had he not calmed down before reaching Lyanna in the Riverlands?

Can we agree that the widely known version of the story including 'at swordpoint' means this happened away from a castle or Rhaegar would be known as a breaker of guest right?

Were swords actually drawn or is that just what Brandon was told? Who told him? Her brothers were not present but maybe other lordlings or retainers were.

All of this comes back to: if Lyanna and Rhaegar had an understanding, why did it appear to be a kidnapping? IMO perhaps Lyanna wanted to be with Rhaegar but disagreed with his methods and her retainers misunderstood when they reported back to Brandon.

I agree that his scenario is most likely.

It may have also been a situation where she rode ahead of her retainers, came upon Rhaegar, Whent and Dayne waiting for her, she was surprised and then her retainers came up on them, and mayhem.

I'm sure that Martin is trying to show that just as in our world, when the best plans are laid, the gods laugh. :bang:

Very good vids. Jessica Brown-Findlay has always been my dreamcast Lyanna btw. Yeah, in these fanvids Rhaegar is usually the weak link. In all honesty I wouldn't know where to find good scenes with the right 'face' (some Scandinavian period drama?). A very daunting casting indeed.

The following vids are my favourite, editing perfection:

It's just a matter of suspension of disbelief when it comes to Rhaegar lol

I deem Jon's character to be a bit more 'convoluted' than this. What about shock? What about betrayal for having been denied the truth all these years? What about pain for all his losses? Confusion for a destructured identity? What about the burden of the blood legacy? What about acceptance and responsibility? I think the dramatic potential for such a revelation is far more thrilling and complicated than a simple 'hey, I'm Ned's son, not a Targaryen'.

And then we see later that Jon does the exact same thing with Gillys baby.

The thing that keeps throwing me about R+L=J(and I'm sure it's been brought up before, so forgive me that) is the whole warging thing.

Some of the Stark children seem to have a talent for it; Bran and Arya.

Some of them don't; Robb (as far as we know) and Sansa

Some we're not sure about; Rickon

But Jon can clearly do it. Maybe not to the extent that Bran can, but he has definitely warged Ghost. Here's where it gets muddy for me...

Thus far, in the series, we've met 5 wargs; Jon, Bran, Arya, Varamyr and Borroq. There have been references to others, but we've actually met these 5. Of these 5, Varamyr and Borroq were both trained in the art. Jon, Bran and Arya were not, seeming to indicate that they have a natural talent for it and suggesting it might be something to do with their bloodline.

Yet, there's no mention of any previous Stark having this talent. At least, not that I can remember. Ned certainly didn't have it. There's no reference made to Brandon having it. Or Rickard. Or, more importantly, Lyanna. Since this talent is extremely rare and obviously quite useful, it's absurd to think that, if any of the previous Starks did have it, that it would just never be mentioned.

If Jon is indeed the son of Rhaegar, does that mean the talent is only passed through the female bloodline? If so, how do Arya and Bran have it? If it's only passed through the male bloodline, then how does Jon have it? If it's an overall Stark talent, why isn't there any mention of any other Stark having it? If it's just a freak genetic mutation, what are the chances that 3 of the 5 people we've seen that can do it (and the only 3 south of the wall) are all from the same family?

The only way this really works is if Bran, Arya and Jon all have a common parent, IMHO

I'm not sure if it's a matter of Ned, Brandon, or Lyanna not having it, but not realizing it.

Remember, old Nan is looked upon as something of an "old kook" now by the Starks, particularly the younger ones, indicating that they have slipped away from their roots, and the old ways.

Though it's likely a Septa was not brought into WF until Cat, and Lyanna was likely raised with the same education as her brothers with a Maester as well as Nan, with the exception of not out-right turning their backs on the old gods.

If you look more into what Lady Dustin says, you see almost a hostility towards the Maester that may go beyond the idea of his trying to influence Rickard to have more of a political "footprint" in the South, but that the Maester is turning the Starks from the old ways.

[Alia of the knife]

Also, here is my contribution for Rhaegar and Lyanna.

Really liked the compilation of the music and the imagery:

AND, my cast choice for Brandon Stark is Taylor Kitsch.

http://www.thecinemasource.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/taylor_kitsch-john_carter-5.jpg

[WhiteOwl18]

Since we're posting videos, here's one about the Knight of the Laughing Tree:

http://youtu.be/q9i4hm2Vvo4

[Stann]

I'm glad my question got some traction.

It has been confirmed by GRRM that all the Stark kids are wargs.

You do understand that this makes it even more unlikely that neither Ned nor Lyanna nor Brandon nor any other Stark is ever mentioned to have had this ability. We know for a fact Ned didn't have it (or, if he did, never got close enough to an animal to discover it) and we know for a fact that any time Ned recalled his brother and/or his sister in his own thoughts, he never thought about them having warging abilities. I understand it may have been a trait that was feared throughout the land, but I'm still willing to bet Ned would have thought of it at some point in his own musings. He doesn't.

I believe the ones south of the wall would never have discovered it if they had not found the direwolves. Those who have had training or mentors know to start with a dog, bird, or something simple. Whereas a wolf needs to have a lifelong connection to be warged. Since the stark children (jon included) had their direwolves from pups, they had that starting advantage. But the older generations (Rickard, Lyanna, etc) didnt have this, and didnt out of thw blue say "im gonna be a dog today"

ETA this means jon didnt need to have the same parents to warg like the other children, maybe just having stark blood is enough.

But back to the R+L=J, i dont think Targ blood would have anything to do with that, having Lyanna for a mother would be enough

This intrigues me, but it begs the question: Is the warging ability (yes, I'm lumping actual skin-changing with the shared vision/dream state as Bran seemed to start with the second and progressed to the first, seeming to indicate they are both part of the same talent) inherent in the Stark kids or in the direwolves? Varamyr and Borroq certainly didn't need direwolves to warg, though, granted, they were specifically trained in the art. I get that a bond would need to exist between the animal and the warg, but I'm willing to bet at least one of the Stark kids got close to a horse or a kennel dog enough growing up that any latent ability probably would've been triggered.

The only thing I'll say about the Mormonts and the Skagosi is simply that none of what's been said about them has been confirmed. It's all heresay and conjecture in the books.

I guess my real problem with this is Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon all have the exact same parentage and all (apparently) have this ability, which is largely unique south of the wall. Jon has two completely different parents (making him a cousin) and still has this ability. It seems to suggest that ANY offspring of ANY Stark has this ability latent, merely waiting for the right trigger (the direwolves, I guess). And yet, throughout all the Stark history that has been given in the books, no mention, even among the Starks themselves, of any of them being wargs.

If Jon does, in fact, gain full skin-changing abilities, is it not a simpler explanation that he and Bran have the same father?

[King of Winters]

You do understand that this makes it even more unlikely that neither Ned nor Lyanna nor Brandon nor any other Stark is ever mentioned to have had this ability. We know for a fact Ned didn't have it (or, if he did, never got close enough to an animal to discover it) and we know for a fact that any time Ned recalled his brother and/or his sister in his own thoughts, he never thought about them having warging abilities. I understand it may have been a trait that was feared throughout the land, but I'm still willing to bet Ned would have thought of it at some point in his own musings. He doesn't.

The Stark children don't show any sign of warging until they get the Direwolf pups. It's the pups that trigger their warging ability. Without the pups they wouldn't have become wargs. Ned and his siblings didn't become wargs because they didn't have Direwolf pups they could bond with when they were young.

[WhiteOwl18]

deleted

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Regarding the warging ... it's an extremely rare talent. Only one person in a thousand is a warg (and it may be even more specific, if you have to have First Men heritage), and only one warg in a thousand can be a greenseer. But here we have six kids in the same family, same generation, who are all wargs. That suggests to me that there's a prophetic, religious and/or supernatural "reason" for this, someone pulling the puppet strings. I'm actually not convinced that Ned, Brandon or Lyanna would have been wargs even if they'd had direwolves.

Rather than assuming that all Starks have warging abilities (I tend to think it was much more prevalent in their early history but has since subsided) or trying to use the warging to pinpoint parentage ("Jon must be Ned's son because he's a warg"), I think the smarter tack might be to view warging as something supernatural and not try to bring genetics into it too much, beyond the aforementioned point that it seems like First Men heritage and/or old gods worship is necessary. Trying to boil it down to family genetics seems like missing the forest for the trees. The better question might be why these kids are all wargs at this particular time in the story, and what implications it's going to have.

ETA: And Varamyr's situation, when he's a warg but neither of his parents are and his father views it as kind of an abomination, should show that it's probably not something as simple as straight-down genetics.

[WhiteOwl18]

Regarding the warging ... it's an extremely rare talent. Only one person in a thousand is a warg (and it may be even more specific, if you have to have First Men heritage), and only one warg in a thousand can be a greenseer. But here we have six kids in the same family, same generation, who are all wargs. That suggests to me that there's a prophetic, religious and/or supernatural "reason" for this, someone pulling the puppet strings. I'm actually not convinced that Ned, Brandon or Lyanna would have been wargs even if they'd had direwolves.

Rather than assuming that all Starks have warging abilities (I tend to think it was much more prevalent in their early history but has since subsided) or trying to use the warging to pinpoint parentage ("Jon must be Ned's son because he's a warg"), I think the smarter tack might be to view warging as something supernatural and not try to bring genetics into it too much, beyond the aforementioned point that it seems like First Men heritage and/or old gods worship is necessary. Trying to boil it down to family genetics seems like missing the forest for the trees. The better question might be why these kids are all wargs at this particular time in the story, and what implications it's going to have.

Excelent answer. I agree 100%.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I'm glad my question got some traction.

You do understand that this makes it even more unlikely that neither Ned nor Lyanna nor Brandon nor any other Stark is ever mentioned to have had this ability. We know for a fact Ned didn't have it (or, if he did, never got close enough to an animal to discover it) and we know for a fact that any time Ned recalled his brother and/or his sister in his own thoughts, he never thought about them having warging abilities. I understand it may have been a trait that was feared throughout the land, but I'm still willing to bet Ned would have thought of it at some point in his own musings. He doesn't.

This intrigues me, but it begs the question: Is the warging ability (yes, I'm lumping actual skin-changing with the shared vision/dream state as Bran seemed to start with the second and progressed to the first, seeming to indicate they are both part of the same talent) inherent in the Stark kids or in the direwolves? Varamyr and Borroq certainly didn't need direwolves to warg, though, granted, they were specifically trained in the art. I get that a bond would need to exist between the animal and the warg, but I'm willing to bet at least one of the Stark kids got close to a horse or a kennel dog enough growing up that any latent ability probably would've been triggered.

The only thing I'll say about the Mormonts and the Skagosi is simply that none of what's been said about them has been confirmed. It's all heresay and conjecture in the books.

I guess my real problem with this is Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon all have the exact same parentage and all (apparently) have this ability, which is largely unique south of the wall. Jon has two completely different parents (making him a cousin) and still has this ability. It seems to suggest that ANY offspring of ANY Stark has this ability latent, merely waiting for the right trigger (the direwolves, I guess). And yet, throughout all the Stark history that has been given in the books, no mention, even among the Starks themselves, of any of them being wargs.

If Jon does, in fact, gain full skin-changing abilities, is it not a simpler explanation that he and Bran have the same father?

Sorry, no.

All your other points have been answered above.

Plus, what Apple Martini said.

[Stann]

Sorry, no.

All your other points have been answered above.

Plus, what Apple Martini said.

Haha. Just no, and that's final!

I'm only inviting discussion. I'm not looking for any hard, fast truths here. It's all based on interpretation.

I can live with it being a supernatural story element. It's as good an explanation as any, I suppose. I just think it'll bare out to be a little more than that

[Dead Wolf]

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:

Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:

Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?

Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?

Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?

The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?

Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?

The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?

Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?

Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

“The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

“The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

“R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

“R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

“R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

“R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

“R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

“R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

“R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

“R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

“R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

“R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

“R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

“R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

“R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

“R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

“R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

“R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

“R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

“R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

“R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

“R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

“R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

“R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

“R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

“R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

“R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

“R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

“R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

“R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v 58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v 59" (thread fifty-nine)

Reference guide

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:

Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:

Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targaryen fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?

Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?

Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

The evidence that Jon is legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the Kingsguard opted to stay at the Tower of Joy stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a Kingsguard's vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

But polygamy hadn't been practiced in centuries, is it still even legal?

The practice was never made illegal and there may have been some less prominent examples after Maegor, as stated in this SSM. Furthermore, Jorah suggests it to Dany as a viable option.

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?

Aerys was sane enough to realize how taking someone hostage works even at the end of the Rebellion, and he would hardly miss the opportunity to bring Ned and Robert in line any time after the situation started to look really serious. Furthermore, regardless of on whose order the Kingsguard might have stayed at Tower of Joy, they would still be in dereliction of their duty to guard the new king.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?

The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the A Song of Ice and Fire readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 17 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?

Ned doesn't think about anyone as being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?

Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Previous editions:

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

“The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

“The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

“R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

“R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

“R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

“R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

“R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

“R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

“R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

“R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

“R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

“R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

“R+L=J v.22a” (thread twenty-two (a))

“R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

“R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

“R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

“R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

“R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

“R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

“R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

“R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

“R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

“R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

“R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

“R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

“R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

“R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

“R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

“R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

“R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v. 41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty=four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v 58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v 59" (thread fifty-nine)

The Kingsguard probably weren't at the TOJ on Aerys's orders. The KG knew that Rhaegar intended to remove Aerys as king after the battle of the Trident, and recognized Rhaegar as king. We learn from Ser Barristan that some kings chose to use the KG to defend their wives, children, mistresses and bastards, they are sworn to obey

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The Kingsguard probably weren't at the TOJ on Aerys's orders. The KG knew that Rhaegar intended to remove Aerys as king after the battle of the Trident, and recognized Rhaegar as king. We learn from Ser Barristan that some kings chose to use the KG to defend their wives, children, mistresses and bastards, they are sworn to obey

Do you have any proof that they explicitly recognized Rhaegar as their king at that point? Because when Ned confronts them, Hightower says that if they had been in action, Aerys would still be sitting on the Iron Throne. Aerys, not Rhaegar.

In any case, I think Dayne and Whent were at the Tower on Rhaegar's orders — not because they thought he was their king, but because they were with him and he as the crown prince could give them an order — and Hightower ended up there after Aerys commanded him to find Rhaegar.

About the whole "oh they were just loyal to Rhaegar" thing, that might be a better sell if it was just Dayne or just Dayne and Whent. Dayne was Rhaegar's best friend and Whent apparently helped him run off with Lyanna. But Hightower's presence should be Exhibit A that something else is going on there. He's never presented as anything less than 100% by the book, and as such wouldn't be putting Rhaegar ahead of Aerys. His presence should be an "Aha" moment.

ETA: And for what feels like the 50th time, none of what you're suggesting explains why they were still there after Aerys, Aegon and Rhaegar were dead.

[King of Winters]

The Kingsguard probably weren't at the TOJ on Aerys's orders. The KG knew that Rhaegar intended to remove Aerys as king after the battle of the Trident, and recognized Rhaegar as king. We learn from Ser Barristan that some kings chose to use the KG to defend their wives, children, mistresses and bastards, they are sworn to obey

Maybe Dayne and Whent, but not Ser Gerold Hightower. He was the LC of the KG and is always shown as being honourable. He says to Jaime that they should protect the King, not judge him, so he defends Aerys even though he's burning people alive. If it was just Dayne and Whent at the Tower of Joy, then the argument for them staying there to defend Rhaegar's wife and [bastard] son because they were his friends could be made, but not with Hightower.

Hightower wouldn't stay there defending Lya and Jon of he knew Viserys was alive, and if Jon is a bastard then he'd be the King. But Hightower didn't go there. He stayed with Dayne and Whent to defend Lyanna and Jon when Rhaegar commanded him to, but when he died and Aerys and Aegon, Jon became King, so they were there to do what Kingsguard do, defend the King.