How will History Remember Robb Stark - The King who Rose?

[Frey Pie]

What you described is just what happened at the RW! LOL. But the author tells us his betrayal would have been less savage and that the RW was motivated by his desire for revenge.

Look, deny it all you want, I'm beyond caring, but suggesting Robb didn't bring about his own doom is ridiculous, the author couldn't have done a better job of confirming it if he wanted to.

edit: it is funny you insist Robb is such an interesting character but try to remove nearly all points of interest and/or edges to him. I mean, I think he's more textured and still find him dull ...

I'm not denying it at all. The Red Wedding is not only notorious because it killed thousands, but because it also broke guest right. George's quote tells us that Frey would have betrayed Robb once things started going against him. He may have just pulled back his troops but knowing the guile and savvy of both Tywin and Walder I don't think it would have been so simple, hence why I feel it would have ended bloodily not matter what. So Robbs mistake lead to the bloodiness of the red wedding but I believe his and many of his followers deaths would have occurred via betrayal in any case in another scenario

It's funny how you like to white wash him as an idiotic lout who stumbled across any success he had. I find him interesting for several reasons, not just his mistakes. His trust was misplaced many times. He was left down by his mother (in the end, although she gave great advice), best friend and trusted bannerman. There were many architects to his downfall not just himself

[Gneisenau]

Maybe like Rommel, considered legendary by the public, but those who studied history would probably consider him overrated.

[Mladen]

Actually, I am pretty sure we know that Frey would never have betrayed Robb in the way he did absent Robb's own actions. There was a reason why Tywin was so pleased about this, and a reason we learn that Walder is so peevish and motivated by slights.

Here is the author making it all clear (lets try to stop exonerating Robb of his follies) ... http://www.westeros....Some_Questions1

When you quote the SSM, it would be nice to actually support your claim. In the SSM you provided, Martin explicitally says that Walder would betray Robb, but it certainly wouldn't be as messy as it was. So, no, you are completely wrong, and proven by the SSM you provided, that Walder Frey's betrayal is strictly connected to Robb's marriage with Jeyne:

"What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him...

[James Arryn]

Stilicho.

[Chaircat Meow]

When you quote the SSM, it would be nice to actually support your claim. In the SSM you provided, Martin explicitally says that Walder would betray Robb, but it certainly wouldn't be as messy as it was. So, no, you are completely wrong, and proven by the SSM you provided, that Walder Frey's betrayal is strictly connected to Robb's marriage with Jeyne:

"What if" questions are impossible to answer with any certainty... knowing old Lord Walder's character, it is likely he would have searched for some way to disentangle himself from a losing cause sooner or later, but his desertion would likely have taken a less savage form. The Red Wedding was motivated by his desire to wash out the dishonor that was done him...

It does support what I said. I said Frey would not betray Robb in the way he did absent the westerling marriage which is indeed what the author says.

I don't know what you are trying to say in your post which is nonsensical as it stands.

If you want a debate tidy it up, as you appear to agree the betrayal is strictly connected to the westerling marriage.

[Drexyon7]

Of course not, it was the figure of speech :bang: . Point is that RW plans began the moment Robb married Jeyne. That, and the fact Tyrells sided with Lannisters shifted Freys' and Boltons' loyalties. Remember that Roose was thinking about his options when Jaime was in Harrenhall. By that time, some of arrangements were already been made.

Bolton had been thinking about his options from the beginning. I asked for a timeline because the Frey's arent doing shit without very powerful friends to guarantee safety. Which brings us to Tywin who was still losing at every turn at this point and had only suceeded in getting his prized son captured. He would not risk RW due to jaime and that he was in the middle of WoFK (like dead center). Walder wouldnt risk it without Tywin support which Tywin couldn't give for reasons above. Roose wouldn't have because his earlier betrayals have kept his troops out of the thick of it and he's already winning, why ruin it? Jaime was the catalyst for all the slights against these men to finally formulate on a single target: Robb

[the Sword of the Prevening]

Not only did Robb win every battle he was present, but won battles in which he was outnumbered and did so in unpredictable ways.

• He successfully tricked Tywin Lannister into pursuing a feint.
  
• He captured the Captain of King's Guard and one of the famous swordsmen of his day in a surprise raid.
  
• He broke the Siege of Riverrun despite being outnumbered.
  
• He found a previously undiscovered trail to bypass the Golden Tooth.
  
• He attacks a much larger army less than a week's march from Casterly Rock, completely undetected and scatters them, allowing the army to pillage the Westerlands with virtual impunity.
  

How did he lose it? Treachery, lots and lots of treachery.

• Theon Greyjoy and the Ironborn.
  
• Ramsay Snow working to destabilize the North so the lords still there could not unite to drive out the Ironborn, or at least resist them.
  
• Roose Bolton communicating with Tywin and letting Jaime, the hostage worth Robb Stark in a fair trade, escape to King's Landing.
  
• Well it may not become public knowledge, the fact his aunt refused to join the war on his side and then proceeded to marry a "Lannister man" speaks volumes.
  
• And finally in comes Walder Frey who kills him during a wedding, breaking the sacred rite of hospitality after promising a renewed alliance.
  
• Heck, we can probably include the Karstarks on this list, whose lord murdered prisoners under Robb's protection, and whose men abandoned his cause soon after.
  

Ultimately, he is going to be remembered. Tywin himself describes Robb as a dangerous opponent who needed to dealt with quickly and cheaply even after the Blackwater and Duskendale.

So, opinions will be split on him. A commander who NEVER lost a battle, and won some unexpected and decisive victories will be long remembered. The fact he lost the war will either make him a cautionary tale, that you can win every battle and still lose the war. Or, it will make him a romantic folk hero, the young, brilliant would be king who rode with a magical direwolf into battle, yet was killed when lesser men became jealous!

Probably both.

That fact he made some notable political blunders is almost inconsequential. Everyone makes some mistakes, but it was the treachery of others that ultimately doomed his cause and it was treachery that killed him.

There was some treachery, but his stupid mistakes are the reason he lost.

-Theon, under the direction of Balon betrayed him, but who did not see that coming. It was pretty dumb on Robb's part to think Balon, who hates Starks, would take his side.

-He betrayed Walder Frey by marrying Jeyne Wetserling and thus breaking his word.

He did not punish his mother for freeing the kingslayer. Then Rickard Karstark kills the Lannister boys, and he condemns Rickard to death. He then loses the Karstarks, thus making it necessary to win back the Freys, leading to the RW.

Roose betrayed him. That one is pretty simple. But still the Boltons and Starks have never really liked eachother. The phrase "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" comes to mind. Roose should have been kept with Robb's camp at all times, instead of being allowed to sit at Harrenhal where he could plot and do as he liked.

[Chaircat Meow]

It's funny how you like to white wash him as an idiotic lout who stumbled across any success he had.

I don't think that is called whitewashing.

[The Dublin Warrior]

The more the Freys and Boltons act like pricks the more Robbs legacy is enhanced.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

To answer the question of the OP, Robb's story is so grey that telling it just like it is for a historical context will yield mixed results. It's a romantic tragedy all on its own.

I'm curious about one thing though: when Walder Frey first demanded Robb marry one of his daughters, why wouldn't he insist Robb marry one of them before he even leaves The Twins, unless he was already plotting? I think that there is enough to assume Walder was hedging his bets early on.

[Frey Pie]

I don't think that is called whitewashing.

So your explanation for any of Robbs successes?l don't give Tywin much credit but really, it's a huge amount compared to what you give Robb. I still haven't heard why you have such bad feelings for a character who really doesn't seem deserving to me

Your portrayal of Walder the innocent and Robb the idiot just doesn't add up

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

To answer the question of the OP, Robb's story is so grey that telling it just like it is for a historical context will yield mixed results. It's a romantic tragedy all on its own.

I'm curious about one thing though: when Walder Frey first demanded Robb marry one of his daughters, why wouldn't he insist Robb marry one of them before he even leaves The Twins, unless he was already plotting? I think that there is enough to assume Walder was hedging his bets early on.

Bingo. Frey was leaving himself an out from the very beginning.

[James Arryn]

So your explanation for any of Robbs successes?l don't give Tywin much credit but really, it's a huge amount compared to what you give Robb. I still haven't heard why you have such bad feelings for a character who really doesn't seem deserving to me

I think she means that the terminology was wrong. Whitewashing means to coat someone's faults in white, and therein falsely represent them as faultless.

[Frey Pie]

I think she means that the terminology was wrong. Whitewashing means to coat someone's faults in white, and therein falsely represent them as faultless.

Ah my mistake then. Oddly I'd always just use whitewashing as a term when someone is painting a character as completely one dimensional eg misrepresent them as bad, even when they have good traits and not the other way around

Guess I mean Robb shouldn't be looked at as purely an idiot with no skill or intellect

[Chaircat Meow]

So your explanation for any of Robbs successes?l don't give Tywin much credit but really, it's a huge amount compared to what you give Robb. I still haven't heard why you have such bad feelings for a character who really doesn't seem deserving to me

Your portrayal of Walder the innocent and Robb the idiot just doesn't add up

Uh. I'm not saying Frey doesn't deserve censure for acting despicably, I'm just saying his reason was the 'dishonour done to him,' which is what the author says. The political situation facilitated that, and provided additional and complementary motivations, but the Jeyne marriage was the keystone in the arch of the RW plot.

Ftr I don't think he was an idiotic lout, I think he was very capable.

[Mladen]

Bolton had been thinking about his options from the beginning. I asked for a timeline because the Frey's arent doing shit without very powerful friends to guarantee safety. Which brings us to Tywin who was still losing at every turn at this point and had only suceeded in getting his prized son captured. He would not risk RW due to jaime and that he was in the middle of WoFK (like dead center). Walder wouldnt risk it without Tywin support which Tywin couldn't give for reasons above. Roose wouldn't have because his earlier betrayals have kept his troops out of the thick of it and he's already winning, why ruin it? Jaime was the catalyst for all the slights against these men to finally formulate on a single target: Robb

No, Robb's marriage was catalyst for Walder, Ironborn invasion for Bolton, and all of that happened before Jaime was released. So, they were already against Robb by the time Catelyn released Jaime. RW, in one way or another, would have happened, regardless of what Cat did.

I don't know what you are trying to say in your post which is nonsensical as it stands.

I apologize, I misread your post and thought it says that Walder wouldn't have betrayed Robb if there wasn't for Westerling wedding. Sorry for that.

I'm curious about one thing though: when Walder Frey first demanded Robb marry one of his daughters, why wouldn't he insist Robb marry one of them before he even leaves The Twins, unless he was already plotting? I think that there is enough to assume Walder was hedging his bets early on.

Hmmm, great catch... I believe he was leaving his options wide open to see who will prevail, because Lannisters had more men, uyes, but they also had Renly and Stannis to take care of... Walder was doing what he did best... Waiting for the victorious side...

[James Arryn]

Ah my mistake then. Oddly I'd always just use whitewashing as a term when someone is painting a character as completely one dimensional eg misrepresent them as bad, even when they have good traits and not the other way around

Guess I mean Robb shouldn't be looked at as purely an idiot with no skill or intellect

Yeah, and your usage might be one I do not know, too.

I totally agree on your take on Robb. In fact I would go one step further. I think he had a ton of skill, and an underrated intellect. Not an idiot at all.

[Chaircat Meow]

I apologize, I misread your post and thought it says that Walder wouldn't have betrayed Robb if there wasn't for Westerling wedding. Sorry for that.

Apology accepted.

[Frey Pie]

Uh. I'm not saying Frey doesn't deserve censure for acting despicably, I'm just saying his reason was the 'dishonour done to him,' which is what the author says. The political situation facilitated that, and provided additional and complementary motivations, but the Jeyne marriage was the keystone in the arch of the RW plot.

Ftr I don't think he was an idiotic lout, I think he was very capable.

I agree. Walder and Rooses betrayal was inevitable though IMO after the BW. And I do believe it would have been bloody. Perhaps they turn on Robb during a battle etc etc. Tywin would have made sure though that they payed the price for getting back under the kings peace, as he did with the RW

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Since Tywin's being tossed around, I dare say Robb will be remembered in better terms than him. Tragic romantic warrior king brought down by treachery vs. conniving brutal architect if said betrayal who was killed by his own son while on the shitter.