Lysa and Baelish Killing Jon Arryn

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

In the "biggest shockers" thread, I gave the answer of Lysa killing Jon Arryn at Baelish's behest, which I still believe to be the series' most legitimate "twist," in the sense that it's extremely difficult to see coming. Unlike, say, the Red Wedding, which is extremely shocking but the telegraphed repeatedly.

I'd kind of like to work backward though, and see how much material there is leading up the reveal that might have given it away. I firmly believe that GRRM doesn't do "gotcha" moments, so much as he leaves clues that you may or may not pick up. So let's hunt for clues about Lysa, Petyr and Jon.

The biggest one by far, courtesy of Varys:

"There was one boy. All he was, he owed to Jon Arryn, but when the widow fled to the Eyrie with her household, he stayed in King's Landing and prospered. It always gladdens my heart to see the young rise in this world."

Ned (and we) thinks it's in reference to Ser Hugh. It's not — it's a nod to Petyr, and Varys is slyly giving Ned some prodding toward the real murderer, while letting him believe it's the squire (not unlike what he does with Kevan and Aegon, but that's another story).

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

I need to look it up, but the inconsistencies in where Robert Arryn was to be sent to foster as told by the characters. I think the first time we see it is when Catelyn is in the Vale with Tyrion, and is speaking with her sister. I think it differed from what Ned(?) told her. Need to look in on that.

[Audrey Arryn]

When Lysa said Tyrion killed Jon, and before that she said Cersei, so her choice wasn't constant.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I need to look it up, but the inconsistencies in where Robert Arryn was to be sent to foster as told by the characters. I think the first time we see it is when Catelyn is in the Vale with Tyrion, and is speaking with her sister. I think it differed from what Ned(?) told her. Need to look in on that.

Yeah, Arryn wanted Robin to foster with Stannis but Lysa thinks he wanted to foster him with Tywin. So someone's not telling the truth or is working on bad intel.

[not in the face]

In the "biggest shockers" thread, I gave the answer of Lysa killing Jon Arryn at Baelish's behest, which I still believe to be the series' most legitimate "twist," in the sense that it's extremely difficult to see coming. Unlike, say, the Red Wedding, which is extremely shocking but the telegraphed repeatedly.

I'd kind of like to work backward though, and see how much material there is leading up the reveal that might have given it away. I firmly believe that GRRM doesn't do "gotcha" moments, so much as he leaves clues that you may or may not pick up. So let's hunt for clues about Lysa, Petyr and Jon.

The biggest one by far, courtesy of Varys:

Ned (and we) thinks it's in reference to Ser Hugh. It's not — it's a nod to Petyr, and Varys is slyly giving Ned some prodding toward the real murderer, while letting him believe it's the squire (not unlike what he does with Kevan and Aegon, but that's another story).

Wouldn't it be Hoster Tully that he is most in debt to? Without him he never meets the Tully sisters and start his plans for global domination.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Wouldn't it be Hoster Tully that he is most in debt to? Without him he never meets the Tully sisters and start his plans for global domination.

Arryn's the one who got him his first government job, which is what allowed him to climb the power ranks in the first place.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Arryn's the one who got him his first government job, which is what allowed him to climb the power ranks in the first place.

And I believe this was Lysa's influence?

[Dornishpenguin]

Wouldn't it be Hoster Tully that he is most in debt to? Without him he never meets the Tully sisters and start his plans for global domination.

But Jon Arryn is the one who gave him his first real official post as a customs master that eventually allowed him to rise to the Small Council.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And I believe this was Lysa's influence?

Yes, but it was still Arryn's final say.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Jon's death was a huge catalyst in The WoFK, so the best clues to his death being at the hands of Lysa and Petyr lie most likely in AGOT? The problem we have is the same one Ned Stark had.

[WeirwoodTreeHugger]

When Catelyn arrives in the Vale, Lysa says she wrote the letter to warn her to stay away from the Lannisters, not bring one to the Eyrie. She seems scared of Tyrion. The first time through it looks like simple paranoia but in retrospect, she might have feared that Tyrion would make a persuasive case that the Lannisters were innocent of this crime.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

When Catelyn arrives in the Vale, Lysa says she wrote the letter to warn her to stay away from the Lannisters, not bring one to the Eyrie. She seems scared of Tyrion. The first time through it looks like simple paranoia but in retrospect, she might have feared that Tyrion would make a persuasive case that the Lannisters were innocent of this crime.

And Pycelle does mention to Ned that Lysa was mad before his death, and very paranoid.

[Afro Seven]

Doesn't GRRM have to approve everything that goes 'on-screen' through HBO? Well as soon as you see Jon Arryn laid to rest, you see Jamie and Cersei conversing. And at least from what I remember they make it out to seem like they actually poisoned him. So I wonder if they DID attempt to poison him and Lysa just got to it first? But she was at the Vale & Jon was at KL? Flipping heck I'm confused lol

[Light a wight tonight]

Wouldn't it be Hoster Tully that he is most in debt to? Without him he never meets the Tully sisters and start his plans for global domination.

LF shows his appreciation by impregnating Lysa and challenging Catelyn's betrothed to a duel. After he loses and recovers from the wounds he receives from Brandon he's sent back home in disgrace.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

The biggest clue we may have is simply that LF promises to help Ned discover the truth of Jon's death (to Catelyn?) and then completely betrays him.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

It's a binor minor, because it can relate to Cersei, but the whole time we're told that poison is known as a woman's weapon. We just suspected the wrong woman.

In fact, I believe Pycelle's line was that poison is a weapon for women, cravens, and eunuchs. I suppose you can take that to mean that the woman (Lysa) poisoned Jon Arryn at the behest of a craven (LF), and the eunuch (Varys) did nothing to stop it, if he ever knew. We later learn that Varys knows much and more of LF's plots but cares not to stop them, so it's not entirely implausible.

I recently reread Catelyn's chapter when she first seeks audience with Walder Frey and he drops the line that Robin Arryn was to be fostered at Dragonstone. It's the second time we encounter the discrepancy, and Cat almost taunts us with "You're sure Dragonstone, and not Casterly Rock?" (Paraphrasing), but we never really put it together.

[Ragnorak]

“Lysa is more tractable than Catelyn, true… but also more fearful, and I understand she hates you.”

“She believes she has good reason. When I was her guest in the Eyrie, she insisted that Id murdered her husband and was not inclined to listen to denials.” He leaned forward. “If I gave her Jon Arryn’s true killer, she might think more kindly of me.”

That made Littlefinger sit up. “True killer? I confess, you make me curious. Who do you propose?”

[Jon of the Dead]

Doesn't GRRM have to approve everything that goes 'on-screen' through HBO? Well as soon as you see Jon Arryn laid to rest, you see Jamie and Cersei conversing. And at least from what I remember they make it out to seem like they actually poisoned him. So I wonder if they DID attempt to poison him and Lysa just got to it first? But she was at the Vale & Jon was at KL? Flipping heck I'm confused lol

I don't remember their dialogue word for word, but I think they were mostly discussing if Jon could've told anyone about something. They were discussing the incest and they never said they poisoned him, it was just a scene to mislead the audience. And a very good one, I might add.

[YUNG LYANNA]

I think another hint at the Lysa/Baelish conspiracy is when LF tells Catelyn that he lost the valiryan steel dagger in a bet to Tyrion. LF claims Tyrion bet against Jamie in the tilt, & Tyrion insists that he never bets against his family.

Also, I believe it was Robert who was insisting on fostering Sweetrobin at Casterly Rock.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

This thread has got me to thinking. It's possible that Jon Arryn shared with Robert Baratheon the truth about Cersei but that Bobby B was too drunk to act on the information or remember it once sober. Pycelle does say that Bobby B would visit Jon at his bed side and laugh about old times. That would be another reason to kill Jon Arryn. If he ever got a chance to tell Robert while he was sober, that would be bad.