Lysa and Baelish Killing Jon Arryn

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

It was actually discussed while they were exiting the Winterfell crypts.

I thought I remember Robert galloping away from this point of contention.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

We could have guessed right at the end of "A Game of Thrones", with these two clues :

The first one is from Eddard VI, Ned thinks of the four people still in King's Landing that have met Jon Arryn. It shows exactly what Jon wanted to do with his son :

The second one is from Catelyn VIII, Catelyn remembers how she left the Eyrie. It shows what Lysa threatens to do if someone wants to take her son away from her :

Littlefinger did promise to help Ned figure out how Jon died, and completely diverted him to the Lannisters bastards as e source.

[Usrnmhsnomning]

I thought I remember Robert galloping away from this point of contention.

Read it not 3 hours ago for the second time in two days. Ned I, as they leave the crypts.

[direwienerdog]

I need to look it up, but the inconsistencies in where Robert Arryn was to be sent to foster as told by the characters. I think the first time we see it is when Catelyn is in the Vale with Tyrion, and is speaking with her sister. I think it differed from what Ned(?) told her. Need to look in on that.

There is Stannis who claims Jon Arryn asks him to foster Sweet Robin.

Then Lysa claim either the King or Jon wants to foster him with the Lannisters.

I need to look it up too hee. I think Tywin throws in his 2 grouts worth also.

[Mychel_Redfort]

Littlefinger did promise to help Ned figure out how Jon died, and completely diverted him to the Lannisters bastards as e source.

I agree Littlefinger wanted to divert Ned from the truth, but I think he didn't believe those only four witnesses could provide a useful information, and so what the potboy says is genuine, it confirms Jon Arryn wanted to foster Robert to Stannis, and he surely has said so to Lysa.

[direwienerdog]

When Lysa said Tyrion killed Jon, and before that she said Cersei, so her choice wasn't constant.

That's true. But she suggests poison was how he died and rules out Jaime as that's not his style. Ser Rodric also suggest it must have been Cersci as poison is a woman's weapon.

[oursisthefury69]

There s a discussion tyrion has with littlefinger in his clash chapter where he first talks to pycelle about shipping myrcella off to dorne, and then to littlefinger about having lysa foster myrcella and marry her to robin. He tells petyr how he'll also give lysa her husbands killer, and It says something to the extent of how that got littlefingers attention

[Ser Edmure Tully]

Not related to the Littlefinger-Lysa conspiracy, but in regards to Varys little half-hint in the OP, this may not be the only time the Eunuch subtly references Littlefinger.

I've seen speculation that when Varys gives Tyrion his whole spiel on power and says "Sometimes a very small man, can cast a very large shadow" he isn't referring to Tyrion, this is only Tyrion's perspective on the matter, he is actually referring to the threat of Littlefinger.

Not sure I buy it, but hey, interesting.

Sorry for OT.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

In the "biggest shockers" thread, I gave the answer of Lysa killing Jon Arryn at Baelish's behest, which I still believe to be the series' most legitimate "twist," in the sense that it's extremely difficult to see coming. Unlike, say, the Red Wedding, which is extremely shocking but the telegraphed repeatedly.

I'd kind of like to work backward though, and see how much material there is leading up the reveal that might have given it away. I firmly believe that GRRM doesn't do "gotcha" moments, so much as he leaves clues that you may or may not pick up. So let's hunt for clues about Lysa, Petyr and Jon.

The biggest one by far, courtesy of Varys:

Ned (and we) thinks it's in reference to Ser Hugh. It's not — it's a nod to Petyr, and Varys is slyly giving Ned some prodding toward the real murderer, while letting him believe it's the squire (not unlike what he does with Kevan and Aegon, but that's another story).

what really reaaaaally shocks me is Cersei not killing Jon Arryn !

[Maxpey]

That's weird. I swear the only "real" fostering story is that Jon wanted to send him to Stannis. Unless someone was lying to Robert, too.

ETA: The Wiki seems to think that the real plan was to send the kid to Dragonstone but that Cersei found out about it and tried to convince Robert to ship him to Casterly Rock. Probably so that if the kids' parentage ever got found out, the Lannisters would have a hostage, I'm guessing.

It might be that everyone was telling truth, just at different periods of time.

Based upon this passage in a GOT, Ned Chapter I, It seems that the idea of sending Robert to Tywin came up after Jon's death:

"Catelyn fears for her sister. How does Lysa bear her grief?" Robert's mouth gave a bitter twist. "Not well . . . she has taken the boy back to the Eyrie. Against my wishes. I had hoped to foster him with Tywin Lannister at Casterly Rock. Jon had no brothers, no other sons. Was I supposed to leave him to be raised by women?"

aGoT, p. 45.

Also know that while he was alive Jon wanted Robert fostered by Stannis on Dragonstone and that Lysa objected.

So, it appears that Jon wanted Robert fostered on Dragonstone and that after he died King Robert wanted him fostered at Casterly Rock. Lysa refused to go along with either plan.

[Lady Beyond the Wall]

Read it not 3 hours ago for the second time in two days. Ned I, as they leave the crypts.

I think I am think of the warden of the east conversation in the field. Aha.

[Mad Monkey]

It sounds like Lysa actually made the right call here. Dragonstone is not exactly a pleasant place for a child and the Lannisters are second only to Craster or Tarly in the shitty guardian Olympics.

[nara]

I don't remember their dialogue word for word, but I think they were mostly discussing if Jon could've told anyone about something. They were discussing the incest and they never said they poisoned him, it was just a scene to mislead the audience. And a very good one, I might add.

I heard somewhere that this scene was added because test audience of the original pilot did not realize that Jaime and Cersei were siblings--which of course made the tower scene where they are having sex less shocking. But I agree, it definitely made them look guilty! I had not read the books prior to seeing the first few episodes and I absolutely took it for granted that they were guilty. But back then I was sweet summer child and I didn't know to question things!

[darthxaos]

It sounds like Lysa actually made the right call here. Dragonstone is not exactly a pleasant place for a child and the Lannisters are second only to Craster or Tarly in the shitty guardian Olympics.

I would rather have my son be raised by Tywin than Lysa. At least Tywin would make him a man and not fucking breastfeed him at age 6!

[Audrey Arryn]

I would rather have my son be raised by Tywin than Lysa. At least Tywin would make him a man and not fucking breastfeed him at age 6!

Tywin is the worst father in the series look at all his children.

[Mad Monkey]

I would rather have my son be raised by Tywin than Lysa. At least Tywin would make him a man and not fucking breastfeed him at age 6!

Eh, that's kind of a nitpicky comment. Tywin can't screw up in the same way that Lysa does because men don't really breastfeed children in this setting, but look how badly his actual children turned out. (Tyrion's positive attributes can't possibly be attributed to Tywin's neglect and abuse, and Jaime didn't really become a man until he joined the Kingsguard and is still on his way to becoming a good man.) When you have that godawful mess in CR and Stannis in Dragonstone kidnapping young boys and trying to light them on fire, it seems reasonable for Lysa to decide that she can't be worse than that.

[Ragnorak]

There s a discussion tyrion has with littlefinger in his clash chapter where he first talks to pycelle about shipping myrcella off to dorne, and then to littlefinger about having lysa foster myrcella and marry her to robin. He tells petyr how he'll also give lysa her husbands killer, and It says something to the extent of how that got littlefingers attention

The exact passage is:

“Lysa is more tractable than Catelyn, true… but also more fearful, and I understand she hates you.”

“She believes she has good reason. When I was her guest in the Eyrie, she insisted that Id murdered her husband and was not inclined to listen to denials.” He leaned forward. “If I gave her Jon Arryn’s true killer, she might think more kindly of me.”

That made Littlefinger sit up. “True killer? I confess, you make me curious. Who do you propose?”

"Propose" is a curious choice of words in that it somewhat implies a fall guy. It wasn't a "who did it?" question. That it makes Littlefinger curious at all points toward his involvement or knowledge and it makes for great irony after the reveal. It seems a bit of a confirmation Easter Egg like the R+L=J bastard's beating princes line in the yard at Winterfell.

Yeah, Arryn wanted Robin to foster with Stannis but Lysa thinks he wanted to foster him with Tywin. So someone's not telling the truth or is working on bad intel.

While that ties more into who tried to kill Bran, it does suggest that Baelish is lying.

I don't think anyone was actually planning to foster Sweetrobin at Casterly Rock. The only real plan was to foster him with Stannis. Baelish just told Lysa the plan was to send him to Casterly Rock to scare her into submission. ETA: Apparently Robert thought he was getting shipped to Casterly Rock? I dunno, but someone's lying.

I think the fostering mystery is the key and Martin's deliberate plant for us to have been able to figure it out.

Robert clearly intended to foster him with Tywin and mentions Tywin has never taken on a fostering before. This makes his agreement to foster such a weakling like Sweetrobin all the more curious, especially as we see his disdain for Tyrion's dwarfism and other traits. We get a good bit of information when Tyrion questions Pycelle:

“He was a wretched king… vain, drunken, lecherous… he would have set your sister aside, his own queen… please… Renly was plotting to bring the Highgarden maid to court, to entice his brother… it is the gods’ own truth…”

“And what was Lord Arryn plotting?”

“He knew,” Pycelle said. “About… about…”

“I know what he knew about,” snapped Tyrion, who was not anxious for Shagga and Timett to know as well.

“He was sending his wife back to the Eyrie, and his son to be fostered on Dragonstone… he meant to act…”

“So you poisoned him first.”

“No.” Pycelle struggled feebly. Shagga growled and grabbed his head. The clansman’s hand was so big he could have crushed the maester’s skull like an eggshell had he squeezed.

Tyrion tsked at him. “I saw the tears of Lys among your potions. And you sent away Lord Arryn’s own maester and tended him yourself, so you could make certain that he died.”

“A falsehood!”

“Shave him closer,” Tyrion suggested. “The throat again.”

The axe swept back down, rasping over the skin. A thin film of spit bubbled on Pycelle’s lips as his mouth trembled. “I tried to save Lord Arryn. I vow—”

“Careful now, Shagga, you’ve cut him.”

Shagga growled. “Dolf fathered warriors, not barbers.”

When he felt the blood trickling down his neck and onto his chest, the old man shuddered, and the last strength went out of him. He looked shrunken, both smaller and frailer than he had been when they burst in on him. “Yes,” he wimpered, “yes, Colemon was purging, so I sent him away. The queen needed Lord Arryn dead, she did not say so, could not, Varys was listening, always listening, but when I looked at her I knew. It was not me who gave him the poison, though, I swear it.” The old man wept. “Varys will tell you, it was the boy, his squire, Hugh he was called, he must surely have done it, ask your sister, ask her.”

So we learn here that Pycelle is dumping info to Tywin and that the Dragonstone fostering is of concern. As an aside, this also points strongly toward Tywin knowing about the incest as he would need to understand the reason he was effectively taking this hostage. It also points to Pycelle being the one who helped arrange the fostering.

There's also a number of conflicting conclusions like Cersei not being able to "say so" because of Varys-- as if Varys was ever in the dark about the incest. Tyrion steals poison from Pycelle and at the trial we see he knows the bottle was taken which raises the question of where these Tears of Lys came from. Pycelle doesn't mention the poison as being missing or his stock being the source and if Cersei needed poison where could she get it other than Pycelle?

It also points a bit toward Gregor killing Hugh at Tywin's request but that isn't a certainty. Cersei didn't poison Arryn so she's not exactly in a position to think she needs to cover up Hugh spilling any beans. Maybe Gregor killed him because he's Gregor, but I think it more likely that Littlefinger or Pycelle tipped off Tywin.

Back to the fostering, Cat learns from both Maester Coleman and Walder Frey that the fostering was initially on Dragonstone.

His face wrinkled up. “Well, whoever he was, Lord Arryn wouldn’t have him, or the other one, and I blame your lady sister for that. She frosted up as if I’d suggested selling her boy to a mummer’s show or making a eunuch out of him, and when Lord Arryn said the child was going to Dragonstone to foster with Stannis Baratheon, she stormed off without a word of regrets and all the Hand could give me was apologies. What good are apologies? I ask you.”

Catelyn frowned, disquieted. “I had understood that Lysa’s boy was to be fostered with Lord Tywin at Casterly Rock.”

“No, it was Lord Stannis,” Walder Frey said irritably. “Do you think I can’t tell Lord Stannis from Lord Tywin?

“The boy is utterly without discipline. He will never be strong enough to rule unless he is taken away from his mother for a time.”

“His lord father agreed with you,” said a voice at her elbow. She turned to behold Maester Colemon, a cup of wine in his hand. “He was planning to send the boy to Dragonstone for fostering, you know… oh, but I’m speaking out of turn.” The apple of his throat bobbed anxiously beneath the loose maester’s chain. “I fear I’ve had too much of Lord Hunter’s excellent wine. The prospect of bloodshed has my nerves all a-fray…”

“You are mistaken, Maester,” Catelyn said. “It was Casterly Rock, not Dragonstone, and those arrangements were made after the Hand’s death, without my sister’s consent.”

The maester’s head jerked so vigorously at the end of his absurdly long neck that he looked half a puppet himself. “No, begging your forgiveness, my lady, but it was Lord Jon who—”

So Walder Frey's tale has Lysa clearly knowing about the fostering on Dragonstone and acting out over it. If there's an explicit reference to Lysa talking about the Lannister fostering I can't find it at the moment and it might make it an open and shut case. The fostering discrepancy comes up often enough to make it a pretty glaring thing for readers to know they ought to be putting together clues.

And then of course we have Lysa's somewhat unstable character, her waffling between Tyrion and Cersei as the murderers, her obvious overprotectiveness of Sweetrobin and even the threat to kill Cat over her own fostering offer:

She ought not to be so open in her contempt, she knew, but her parting from the Eyrie had not been pleasant. She had offered to take Lord Robert with her, to foster him at Winterfell for a few years. The company of other boys would do him good, she had dared to suggest. Lysa’s rage had been frightening to behold. “Sister or no,” she had replied, “if you try to steal my son, you will leave by the Moon Door.” After that there was no more to be said.

There's another little bit of irony here

“A pity Lysa carried them off to the Vale,” Ned said dryly. “The gods are doing their best to vex us. Lady Lysa, Maester Colemon, Lord Stannis… everyone who might actually know the truth of what happened to Jon Arryn is a thousand leagues away.”

and here

Why did Stannis leave? Had he played some part in Jon Arryn’s murder? Or was he afraid? Ned found it hard to imagine what could frighten Stannis Baratheon

If Stannis isn't afraid that leaves him playing a part in Jon Arryn's murder which he did by agreeing to foster Sweetrobin.

I never picked up on it but the clues seem to be there. In hindsight Lysa ought to have raised a number of red flags but all of them are woven so well into shaping her "batshit crazy" portrayal that they slip right under most readers' radar. Pretty brilliantly done.

[Maxpey]

The exact passage is:

“Lysa is more tractable than Catelyn, true… but also more fearful, and I understand she hates you.”

“She believes she has good reason. When I was her guest in the Eyrie, she insisted that Id murdered her husband and was not inclined to listen to denials.” He leaned forward. “If I gave her Jon Arryn’s true killer, she might think more kindly of me.”

That made Littlefinger sit up. “True killer? I confess, you make me curious. Who do you propose?”

"Propose" is a curious choice of words in that it somewhat implies a fall guy. It wasn't a "who did it?" question. That it makes Littlefinger curious at all points toward his involvement or knowledge and it makes for great irony after the reveal. It seems a bit of a confirmation Easter Egg like the R+L=J bastard's beating princes line in the yard at Winterfell.

I think the fostering mystery is the key and Martin's deliberate plant for us to have been able to figure it out.

Robert clearly intended to foster him with Tywin and mentions Tywin has never taken on a fostering before. This makes his agreement to foster such a weakling like Sweetrobin all the more curious, especially as we see his disdain for Tyrion's dwarfism and other traits. We get a good bit of information when Tyrion questions Pycelle:

So we learn here that Pycelle is dumping info to Tywin and that the Dragonstone fostering is of concern. As an aside, this also points strongly toward Tywin knowing about the incest as he would need to understand the reason he was effectively taking this hostage. It also points to Pycelle being the one who helped arrange the fostering.

There's also a number of conflicting conclusions like Cersei not being able to "say so" because of Varys-- as if Varys was ever in the dark about the incest. Tyrion steals poison from Pycelle and at the trial we see he knows the bottle was taken which raises the question of where these Tears of Lys came from. Pycelle doesn't mention the poison as being missing or his stock being the source and if Cersei needed poison where could she get it other than Pycelle?

It also points a bit toward Gregor killing Hugh at Tywin's request but that isn't a certainty. Cersei didn't poison Arryn so she's not exactly in a position to think she needs to cover up Hugh spilling any beans. Maybe Gregor killed him because he's Gregor, but I think it more likely that Littlefinger or Pycelle tipped off Tywin.

Back to the fostering, Cat learns from both Maester Coleman and Walder Frey that the fostering was initially on Dragonstone.

So Walder Frey's tale has Lysa clearly knowing about the fostering on Dragonstone and acting out over it. If there's an explicit reference to Lysa talking about the Lannister fostering I can't find it at the moment and it might make it an open and shut case. The fostering discrepancy comes up often enough to make it a pretty glaring thing for readers to know they ought to be putting together clues.

And then of course we have Lysa's somewhat unstable character, her waffling between Tyrion and Cersei as the murderers, her obvious overprotectiveness of Sweetrobin and even the threat to kill Cat over her own fostering offer:

There's another little bit of irony here

and here

If Stannis isn't afraid that leaves him playing a part in Jon Arryn's murder which he did by agreeing to foster Sweetrobin.

I never picked up on it but the clues seem to be there. In hindsight Lysa ought to have raised a number of red flags but all of them are woven so well into shaping her "batshit crazy" portrayal that they slip right under most readers' radar. Pretty brilliantly done.

The different reactions Lysa has to Sweetrobin being fostered away from her are subtle clues about her role in Jon's death. Well done in piecing them together.

However, I am not sure what the fostering "mystery" had to do with it.

In fact, there really wasn't a mystery at all.

Jon Arrington wanted to send Sweetrobin to Dragonstone to be fostered by Stannis.

After Jon died, Robert asked Tywin to foster Sweetrobin.

If there was any confusion, it was because Catelyn didn't know about Jon's plans for Sweetrobin prior to his death.

[Chaircat Meow]

The different reactions Lysa has to Sweetrobin being fostered away from her are subtle clues about her role in Jon's death. Well done in piecing them together.

However, I am not sure what the fostering "mystery" had to do with it.

In fact, there really wasn't a mystery at all.

Jon Arrington wanted to send Sweetrobin to Dragonstone to be fostered by Stannis.

After Jon died, Robert asked Tywin to foster Sweetrobin.

If there was any confusion, it was because Catelyn didn't know about Jon's plans for Sweetrobin prior to his death.

I'm pretty sure it was Tywin who asked Robert (or Robert got prompted into asking him, I should say, by a lannister supporter). Robert can't give Robin to Ned after Tywin made a point of asking him publicly (somehow). That's the tip off from the author that the lannister leaders are aware of the threat to their claim on the throne from Stannis and Jon. 100% agree with Ragnorak here.

[Maxpey]

I'm pretty sure it was Tywin who asked Robert. Robert can't give Robin to Ned after Tywin made a point of asking him publicly (somehow). That's the tip off from the author that the lannister leaders are aware of the threat to their claim on the throne from Stannis and Jon. 100% agree with Ragnorak here.

I think you have it backwards. It was Robert's idea, as he didn't want Sweetrobin to be raised by woman. Further, we have this passage from aGoT, p. 45:

"I will take him as a ward, if you wish," Ned said. . . A generous offer my friend," the King said, "but Lord Tywin has already given his consent. Fostering the boy elsewhere would be a grievous affront to him."

Also, Jon is dead by the time the Casterly Rock idea is floated. As such, the Lannisters don't need to have Sweetrobin in order to ensure his silence. Lysa is a different story. But wouldn't it be just as easy to dismiss any claims she makes as the product of her being batshit crazy?