Bakker - A Discussion of Rectal Miracles

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

It's my belief that Kellhus's access to and use of the Outside is a divine power. He has no sorcery at this point.

I simply don't think there's any way Kellhus could take the heart in any mundane way. His hands are still bound to the Circumfix when he comes down, so this theory relies on him following this chain of events:

1. Get bound face-to-face with Serwë

2. Somehow unbind one hand

3. Rip her heart out

4. Put it up his butt

5. Re-tie his hand to the Circumfix

6. Once released, remove the heart without being noticed and hide it under his arm

7. Set the heart on fire and show it to the crowd

... all without being noticed by the huge crowds surrounding Umiaki or his infrequent visitors. And for the Nascenti to not notice (or not comment upon) a gaping hole in Serwe's chest when they unbind him.

Keep in mind that he does all this before grasping the Thousandfold Thought and that his POV on the Cfix shows that he is losing his grip on reality and is begging his father to bring Serwë back to life. Hardly the thoughts of a man trying to figure out how to get that heart out.

[Francis Buck]

Can you elaborate, as I've seen these words used in so many different contexts it's hard to get a handle on what you mean.

Madness is of course welcome to correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he means the difference between true sorcery and "divine intervention" of some kind. For example, when Porsparian blesses Sorweel to mask his face, he's not working sorcery, and nor is he a sorcerer. It's divine magic, something that relies on the Outside (and perhaps with the direct influence of some Outside agency, but that's taking it another step).

I'm curious what people think of RSB's use of the word "bios". To my knowledge he only does so once, in reference to the Consult having copied the Nonmen's bios in order to create the Sranc. Is he basically just referring to their genetic code in a roundabout way? If so, what's the logic behind using the word bios (beyond the "bio" prefix)? Obviously it's associated with computers, but I'm pretty ignorant of technical stuff so I don't really know what a bios refers to even in real life.

[lokisnow]

well and those four words are also cognitive tripwires that are meant to trigger certain assumptions in western-primed audiences. Bakker's relying on us using interpretive shorthand when presented with certain triggers, and perhaps letting us fool ourselves.

Then you find out that tekne means ark in turkish. :-p

[Francis Buck]

I think it's just a way of saying "biology" or messing with genetics, life, etc...

bios = biology

gnosis = knowledge

tekne = craft/technology

psukhe = psyche / spirit

ETA: So are the skin spies both bios and tekne? Can the No-God be part bios?

If bios is indeed simply genetics/life, then I'd say the the skin-spies are a combination. My interpretation of the Tekne is that it is, quite literally, just advanced technology. Genetic engineering, energy weapons, neurology, etc. The only reason the Tekne is perceived as something beyond normal tech is because we're generally seeing this story through the lense of a civilization loosely equivalent to the Medieval age, in which the concept of "technology" did not really exist as it does now. So, basically every non-sorcerous (and likely a few partially-sorcerous) creations of the Consult would also, by definition, be a result of the Tekne. That's my interpretation anyway.

Then you find out that tekne means ark in turkish. :-p

Hah, that's pretty crazy. I seem to recall him using some kind of etymological tomfoolery with the word "chorae" as well.

[Sci-2]

Tekne = Materialist Reductionism, and all the power that grants

Bios = the imprint that makes Nonmen different from other lifeforms. This might be DNA, but it might also be some sort of combination of DNA and metaphysical life force or Platonic template.

[unJon]

It's my belief that Kellhus's access to and use of the Outside is a divine power. He has no sorcery at this point.

I simply don't think there's any way Kellhus could take the heart in any mundane way. His hands are still bound to the Circumfix when he comes down, so this theory relies on him following this chain of events:

Let's take it one at a time.

1. Get bound face-to-face with Serwë

So clearly this happens whether the heart thingy is mundane or miraculous. Not sure why it's in the list other than to artificially inflate the number of required steps.

2. Somehow unbind one hand

OMG no way could a Dunyain like untie a hand. Sure he can catch arrows in mid flight and break swords with the snap of a wrist and punch in someone's face like a melon, but it would TOTALLY kill the suspension of disbelief if he could defeat a hemp rope.

3. Rip her heart out

See smashing like a melon above. Also see that she was already stabbed so hole in chest already there. Also see that no one could make out Kel under the Umiaki at night. He basically had hours of privacy.

4. Put it up his butt

Mission is all to a Dunyain.

5. Re-tie his hand to the Circumfix

Kel, the prodigy even among the Dunyain, was never able to master tying a knot with one hand.

6. Once released, remove the heart without being noticed and hide it under his arm

He was covered with a linen at this point. Child's play.

7. Set the heart on fire and show it to the crowd

was it really on fire? If so I guess he had some lamp oil up his butt also. At any rate, he k we he was getting circumcixed beforehand. He knew Serwe was going to die. He knew he would need a miracle to pull off at

... all without being noticed by the huge crowds surrounding Umiaki or his infrequent visitors.

And for the Nascenti to not notice (or not comment upon) a gaping hole in Serwe's chest when they unbind him.

Keep in mind that he does all this before grasping the Thousandfold Thought and that his POV on the Cfix shows that he is losing his grip on reality and is begging his father to bring Serwë back to life. Hardly the thoughts of a man trying to figure out how to get that heart out.

[Sci-2]

Yes, the heart is on fire:

“They said that I was False, that I caused the anger of the God to burn against us!"

He looked into their wasted faces, answered their fevered eyes. He brandished Serwe’s burning heart.

“But I say that we—WE!—are that anger!”

Also, retying the knot with one hand seems impossible when said hand is attached to the wrist you have to bind to the Circumfix.

[Kalbear]

It couldn't be sorcery. He didn't have a mark, nor was he vulnerable to chorae, at least at that point. He is later.

[Shryke]

Question:

Do we ever see that scene from any other perspective? Is it ever reference by someone else?

Cause a second opinion on what happened would help clarify alot of theories.

It couldn't be sorcery. He didn't have a mark, nor was he vulnerable to chorae, at least at that point. He is later.

Yup.

[unJon]

As far as I remember we only get this little bit:

Eleäzaras had watched him reach into his chest and pull out his fucking heart!

Some kind of trick … it had to be!

@sci I don't think it impossible to tie your own wrist to something. In fact I just tried it and managed to very loosely tie a square knot with some string. Also no one untied Kel, they cut him down. So he doesn't need to have been tied up exactly the same way.

@wrath Serwe was killed by a stabbing. She has a hole in her whether or not Kel took her heart on the circumfix.

[Rhom]

To answer that, look at what happens to Cnaiur prefacing and during the Circumfixion. Also Serwe. Even Esmenet pre circumfixion. If I get time this weekend I'll assemble the narrative of what I think happened, or at least of a crackpot I've not seen before.

It's clearly not any sleight of hand going on. Kellhus's hands were lashed to the circumference of a circle for the entirety of the time he was on the circumfix next to Serwe, I don't think he could have thieved her heart. And honestly we shouldn't be falling for the mundane trick Bakker keeps pulling on us. Was the spell Mekeritrig hit Kellhus with real or not? Kellhus believed magic to be an illusion and superstition, just as we do, so we thought he was right. But perhaps Mek is just a talented illusionist, and the magic was no more real than the gods are, no more real than Kellhus reaching into his chest and pulling out serwe's heart. That would also indicate all of Akka's supernatural spells are illusions as well, he's just very very good at convincing people his magic is real, but it's all sleight of hand and misdirection. Just like how the gods are all superstition. Yup, Earwa is just like Earth, nothing that appears supernatural is actually real.

I keep seeing variations on this statement coming up. Saying that we (the readers) want to disbelieve acts of magic. I don't believe that at all. I'm reading a fantasy novel, I'd be surprised if there were acts of magic. As it pertains to the events of the circumfixion, the doubt isn't whether magic is real in Earwa or not... the doubt is in Kellhus, the lieing liar who lies.

[Sci-2]

@sci I don't think it impossible to tie your own wrist to something. In fact I just tried it and managed to very loosely tie a square knot with some string. Also no one untied Kel, they cut him down. So he doesn't need to have been tied up exactly the same way.

Ah, perhaps I just suck at knot tying. Truth be told I was a terrible Boyscout.

Really though it's the up butt part that's hard to swallow. He'd have to have a heart and some kind of incendiary device stored there.

@wrath Serwe was killed by a stabbing. She has a hole in her whether or not Kel took her heart on the circumfix.

Does it actually say she was stabbed? I thought her throat was cut. But then she seems to live a bit too long for someone denied oxygen to their brain so you might be on to something.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

Lol unJon you have to be fucking with me when you say he must've have lamp oil up his butt too.

This is not related directly to this, but I am pretty sure that Cnaiur doesn't actually talk to Kellhus. He says that only his heart could hear the words, and almost right after that is Kellhus's crazy POV where he obsesses about Serwë's corpse and asks his father to resurrect her.

Here is Serwë's death:

The flash of sunlight across a knife. Sarcellus's knife. Sounds. Celebratory and horrified.

Serwë felt her life spill across her breasts. She worked her lips to speak to him, that godlike man so near, to say something final, but there was no sound, no breath. She raised her hands and beads of dark wine fell from her outstretched fingers...

The bolded parts imply that her throat is cut but I'll admit it isn't certain.

[unJon]

Lol unJon you have to be fucking with me when you say he must've have lamp oil up his butt too.

Yeah just fooling. The Nascenti cut him down. Any of them could have slipped him fuel and spark.

ETA: for that matter the Nascenti could cover up for Kel if the knot on is wrist wasn't tied back on properly.

[WrathOfTinyKittens]

The thing is, your explanation refutes what's actually in the text when we have quite a bit of evidence to say that Kellhus is performing a miracle.

This is a lot like previous conversations about how the gods are hiding in plain sight in the books, with Bakker relying on us (and our skeptic characters Kellhus and Akka) to argue against it based on our own worldview.

The fact is, even leaving aside the other evidence I mentioned, the text - from Kellhus's own POV - describes him "firmly wresting" Serwë's heart out after reaching beneath his own ribs. Bakker plays the text remarkably straight and lets the readers deceive themselves.

[Francis Buck]

In addition to what Wrath said, I just can't see Bakker as an author going for the "up the butt" idea. The Umiaki sequence is arguably one of the most pivotal scenes in the entire first trilogy (or, hell, the series itself), and having Kellhus shove a heart up his ass for later use would kinda...not make it so powerful. The series takes itself pretty damn seriously for the most part. It just doesn't jive tonally.

I'm honestly kinda surprised this has become an actual debate.

[lokisnow]

This is not related directly to this, but I am pretty sure that Cnaiur doesn't actually talk to Kellhus. He says that only his heart could hear the words, and almost right after that is Kellhus's crazy POV where he obsesses about Serwë's corpse and asks his father to resurrect her.

Bingo.

I'm up to four pages of a word doc, this post is going to be epic if I ever complete it.

I'm not certain Akka even spoke to Kellhus--like Cnaiur it may have all been in his head, or Kellhus speaking soul-to-soul--but Cnaiur certainly did not.

[Happy Ent]

Achamian flinched back in disbelief. As if he had been slapped.

The Consult. Here?

He felt something … shift inside him, part confirmation, part horror.

The Quorum. I must contact the Quorum. The stakes were so high! His heart fluttered.

Fool! Coward! Why must I always…

Two slow breaths. He looked back at the screen. Kellhus had been right. Almost imperceptible incongruences of tone had alerted him to these … creatures.

The Tekne. That was the only explanation. The works of skin spies, in their hundreds, endlessly repeating the same claims about their Master’s art, the books of the Old Father. Yet there was no Mark. Each review different, yet the same; unique, yet taken from the same mold.

The Consult had rediscovered their ancient art.

Nautzera must know of this at once!

Or could he have fooled himself? Achamian knew that man ever deceives himself, ever flatters his own preconceptions. For the first time, he realised that he himself was no different. The Mandati had been mocked for their beliefs. Yet here it was, evidence that their previous skirmishes years back had been more than a fight against imagined shadows.

He blinked, trying to focus, exposing himself to the imprint of one more of the creations. The Thing Called Lisa had written “T— is an excellent book. Definitely a cliff-hanger, cant't wait to see what's on the next page type read. Read it.”

No Mark.

Achamian’s mouth opened. Light spilled out.

[Shryke]

As far as I remember we only get this little bit:

Thanks. I thought I remembered something like this.

Yeah, I'm thinking some sort of miracle generated by his moment of revelation. I swear we've speculated before it's connected to the whole "He felt one with everything" comment before. He literally reaches into his own chest, which is everyone's chest, and pulls the heart out of Serwe's.

I don't know though, rereading that part of the book, the text isn't as explicit on the religious intensity of the moment as I remembered it being.

[Sci-2]

There is virtually no chance whatsoever that Kellhus hid a heart up his ass. Meppa being Xin is likelier.

But i do think that sleight of hand remains a likelier explanation than a miracle though I can't discount the possibility of the latter.

How can it be likelier if the only place to put the heart is in the rectum? [And how does Kellhus use sleight of hand to set the heart on fire?] The other explanation is he pulls off a trick with telepathy, but that's IMO only slightly less unlikely that a heart up the butt.

Though speaking of Meppa, it's interesting how disturbed Malo is that there's even one Cish remaining:

But the sorcerer could only think, Cishaurim!

Like every other School, the Mbimayu had assumed the Water-Bearers were extinct—and like every other School, they had been happy for it. The Tribe of Indara-Kishauri

was too dangerous to be allowed to live....

The Zeumi Emissary nodded as though acknowledging the logic, if not the attraction, of his argument. But all he really could think was, Cishaurim.

So... the accursed Water still flowed.