Bakker - A Discussion of Rectal Miracles

[unJon]

I haven't reread series since TWLW but I really found the character internal monologues to be one note and repetive with the grandiose statements about Always are Men Deceived theme. I didn't recall it being so in your face in prior books.

[unJon]

New topic. I think the prologue is rife with foreshadowing. Was just skimming and struck by the link with closing the world to the gods with all the people dying in Ishual of the plague. Then there's only two people left, the old bard and the Anasirumbur bastard. The world is now closed. The bard espouses the Inchoroi philosophy "no sins if everyone is dead." He just seeks the hedonistic pursuits of alcohol, song and sex.

Later the Dunyain show up and are described as looking like wolves. They are literally the wolves howling at the silent gates I Ishual that match Kel's description I the world being closed to the gods.

But then what happens? The Dunyain climb the walls and espouse a contra Inchoroi philosophy: only sins so long as me are deceived.

Not sure what to make of last bit but feel it is foreshadowing a revelation in TUC. The gods can still get over the walls if the world is close. Or something?

[Kalbear]

Yeah, it (like most things) have been covered. We get the inchoroi philosophy and the Dunyain one, right at the very beginning. The line is 'there are no crimes when everyone is dead', and then 'there is crime so long as men are deceived'.

Which is interesting in that it has multiple interpretations. The first statement is pretty cut and dried. The second is less so. Is there no crime because everyone understands everyone else's actions? Is there no crime because the concept of law has no meaning when everyone is aware? Is it that law is just another means of control? One interpretation is that when everyone becomes enlightened they won't need to commit crimes, but I think that's wrong; it's more accurate to say that when everyone becomes enlightened the concept of crime (and law, and central government, and authority) become completely impotent. Law exists as a power so long as people allow it to. Law is just another thing that the Dunyain manipulate.

[unJon]

Thanks Kal. I recall vaguely that discussion and actually think ( though may be misremembering) that I pointed out the two competing philosophies in that scene. Context of discussion iirc was whether Kel was right in his conclusion that Moe would join the consult eventually to try to close the world.

What I do not recall being mentions (though it very we may have been) is the imagery of the Dunyain as wolves at th silent gate, and whether it means anything that they were able to breach that gate. Also never hit me previously how that bit of prologue resembles the world being closed through killing off enough people.

[Sci-2]

What I do not recall being mentions (though it very we may have been) is the imagery of the Dunyain as wolves at th silent gate, and whether it means anything that they were able to breach that gate. Also never hit me previously how that bit of prologue resembles the world being closed through killing off enough people.

Yeah, I don't think anyone has brought up this up. In any case, if was forgotten about so good of you to point it out!

It also ties into the lines in TTT with Kellhus and Big Moe talking, where the world will be shut from the Outside just as Ishual is shut from the wilderness.

[jurble]

Ha! This morning I checked in on the site and was appalled that neither Bakker nor Abercrombie were on the first page of the Literature forum.

Low and behold... This afternoon I find a "What order should I read Bakker?" discussion! :rofl:

I oftentimes come here and when I don't see a Bakker thread on the front-page of Lit, debate with myself whether to bump it or not, even if I have nothing meaningful to contribute - in hopes that by doing so, it serves as an advertisement for the series in case some randoms from up in the ASoIaF book forums happen to drop in. Though, honestly, it seems to me that the incredible popularity from the TV-series hasn't led to much growth outside of the ASoIaF book forums.

[Rhom]

I oftentimes come here and when I don't see a Bakker thread on the front-page of Lit, debate with myself whether to bump it or not, even if I have nothing meaningful to contribute - in hopes that by doing so, it serves as an advertisement for the series in case some randoms from up in the ASoIaF book forums happen to drop in. Though, honestly, it seems to me that the incredible popularity from the TV-series hasn't led to much growth outside of the ASoIaF book forums.

No... The popularity of the TV show has had only one effect around here that I can tell: pissing me off every spring when I want to post about something and the forum won't let me on because its overloaded.

[Weeping Sore]

@ resident Bakkerites:

Ok, I'll make Bakker a Winter 2013-2014 date and return here in the Spring. Thanks for the input, everybody.

[Happy Ent]

- in hopes that by doing so, it serves as an advertisement for the series in case some randoms from up in the ASoIaF book forums happen to drop in.

Not having juvenile and purposefully provocative thread titles would probably help more…

[Sci-2]

Not having juvenile and purposefully provocative thread titles would probably help more…

I'd say just the opposite. Provocative thread titles are more likely to bring in the curious.

Otherwise, why should people give a fuck about whoever "Bakker" is?

[Shryke]

No... The popularity of the TV show has had only one effect around here that I can tell: pissing me off every spring when I want to post about something and the forum won't let me on because its overloaded.

Also floods of newbies, for good and for ill.

[Sci-2]

I'm with Ent on this one. I do get why this thread title is hilarious on some level. But as a big fan of Bakker's work I'm pretty sensitive to how there are a lot of negative stereotypes out there, so I'm hesitant to pile on.

I doubt his online debacles affected his sales very much. The online SF fan community isn't that small, and posts about him were more tempest in a tea-cup.

But I have no real horse in this race. I find the idea we can influence his sales via our 5 books deep discussions sort of bizarre TBH.

[lokisnow]

New topic. I think the prologue is rife with foreshadowing. Was just skimming and struck by the link with closing the world to the gods with all the people dying in Ishual of the plague. Then there's only two people left, the old bard and the Anasirumbur bastard. The world is now closed. The bard espouses the Inchoroi philosophy "no sins if everyone is dead." He just seeks the hedonistic pursuits of alcohol, song and sex.

And note that when the bard is dead the world is closed because the circuit of watcher and watched is collapsed. The boy is alone until the Dunyain come, he is neither watcher nor watched. What did he see?

[kuenjato]

I doubt his online debacles affected his sales very much. The online SF fan community isn't that small, and posts about him were more tempest in a tea-cup.

But I have no real horse in this race. I find the idea we can influence his sales via our 5 books deep discussions sort of bizarre TBH.

Dunno, I got into the books from Westeros recommendations and discussions, back in 2006.

The Women vs. Bakker debate is ages old, and he seems to have gotten over his unfortunate tendency to bate trolls a la RotyH and Vox. His blog is all Blind Brain Theory stuff, which is pretty dull for me. I do wish he'd post more info on his writing process, more material, etc., though it's hard to really complain given that he's released two short stories and a short novel in the past couple years for free.

We NEED that tUC fix, though. Sample chapter, something.

[Sci-2]

I'm really just concerned that this is hurting my chances to find a girlfriend on the board.

That you're posting in a Bakker thread at all is going to give your problems if that's your goal.

This reminds me of a time when someone I was friends with at uni gave me the Japanese slash porn "Raped by an Angel" for my birthday. I tossed it somewhere in my room, never even opened it.

And then I had a girl coming over [some time later] and thankfully remembered to find it and toss it in the trash.

[Sci-2]

Dunno, I got into the books from Westeros recommendations and discussions, back in 2006.

I'm sure we add and subtract from the pool of potential readers, depending on whether the topic of the day is "What is the nature of the Outside" or "So that black semen on Esmi's stomach was for real-real?"

I just don't think we can massively influence such things.

[Rhom]

I'm really just concerned that this is hurting my chances to find a girlfriend on the board.

:rofl:

:smileysex:

[Larry of the Lawn]

I'm really just concerned that this is hurting my chances to find a girlfriend on the board.

Okay that made me laugh. Because it's true.

[Francis Buck]

I'm sure we add and subtract from the pool of potential readers, depending on whether the topic of the day is "What is the nature of the Outside" or "So that black semen on Esmi's stomach was for real-real?"

I just don't think we can massively influence such things.

Yeah, I didn't realize the title of the thread was a big deal. I just made it up off the top of my head, and considering past content (rim jobs, black semen, pendulous phalli), I suppose I just fell into the trap of immaturity. Wouldn't want to offend anyone's more refined sensibilities, of course. ;)

[jurble]

We NEED that tUC fix, though. Sample chapter, something.

I wouldn't mind more short stories, myself. TUC can wait indefinitely. I've stopped feeling pangs of book-lust, for any author. I suppose an immunity has been built. Stand-alone Earwa short stories, especially, could help Bakker raise awareness, possibly. Especially if he published a collection of short stories for free on Amazon. People with Kindles love free things.

Huh, honestly, Bakker should probably have published Light, Time, Gravity for free on Amazon too.