Bakker - A Discussion of Rectal Miracles

[Rhom]

Heh. I do wonder how people on Earth would react if a coffin in a whirlwind ensured every birth was a stillborn. But then, given our weaponry, we'd make short work of the No-God.

Lots of unprotected sex.

[jurble]

Would we make short work of the No-God? The Carapace has to be pierced by a laser, presumably because the laser heats the carapace up to some insane degree to melt it. So, given we lack combat lasers like that, we'd have to nuke the Whirlwind directly to achieve similar results. So long as the No-God stays in populated areas, they might be hesitant to do that.

[kuenjato]

Unfortunately, for all that he talks about genre being where it's at for reaching people, he really does not participate in the genre culture at all. No cons for him, no anthologies, no blogging, he really makes no effort to participate in our communities, almost as though he holds himself above it all and deigns to write for us for our own good.

It's interesting that one must not only be an author in this day and age, but what amounts to a professional salesman as well. Many authors are by nature introverts and/or bookish and/or not into conversation for conversation's sake.

Just because someone likes writing epic fantasy doesn't mean he/she should have to go to cons or blog about genre-related material, and thinking they are pretentious/above it all for having other interests is a bit, well, judgmental. I don't even read Bakker's blog (it's too dense and repetitive for me to invest the computer time; I like dense material in print) but I'd visit it far less if he turned it into a carnival-barker style blog a la Rothfuss.

I would like it if he invested more time in producing Atrocity Tales for free readin' -- that's about the smartest fan-oriented tactic he's come up with--but yeah, securing stable work to supplement his modest income is probably his smartest path. In a genre fairly dominated by 6th grade level prose and concurrent thematic / character / plot development, Second Apocalypse will probably always be niche, particularly this far into the series.

[kuenjato]

double post

[Happy Ent]

Would we make short work of the No-God? The Carapace has to be pierced by a laser, presumably because the laser heats the carapace up to some insane degree to melt it. So, given we lack combat lasers like that, we'd have to nuke the Whirlwind directly to achieve similar results. So long as the No-God stays in populated areas, they might be hesitant to do that.

I imagine a simple rocket launcher would make short work of it. No reason for thermonuclear weapons.

[Maithanet]

Would we make short work of the No-God? The Carapace has to be pierced by a laser, presumably because the laser heats the carapace up to some insane degree to melt it. So, given we lack combat lasers like that, we'd have to nuke the Whirlwind directly to achieve similar results. So long as the No-God stays in populated areas, they might be hesitant to do that.

The whirlwind protects the No-God from standard projectiles like spears and arrows, but it wouldn’t be sufficient to divert a missile. Hell, I doubt it would even protect against a heavy machine gun.

What makes you think that you need to melt the carapace? I'm fairly sure that a missile would simply blow it apart.

And if a nuke were required, we would use it more or less immediately. Still-births across the globe would be killing 370,000 babies per day. Even if it parked over somewhere with lots of people AND super valuable (say, Manhattan), the government might give people a day to evacuate and then launch.

[Sci-2]

I imagine a simple rocket launcher would make short work of it. No reason for thermonuclear weapons.

Yeah, the No-God seems incredibly fragile to modern weaponry. But then part of that is the Consult's inability to fully utilize the Tekne. If they had skin spies taking our top inventors and scientists, along with some world leaders, on Inverse Fire tours the Carapace they use on Earth may be much stronger.

In terms of the narrative, it'd be interesting if the Heron Spear resurfaced by was deflected by a forcefield.

[sologdin]

y'all done jumped the shark, as this thread has begun its descent toward the nadir who would win in a fight: starship enterprise or super star destroyer?

[Sci-2]

y'all done jumped the shark, as this thread has begun its descent toward the nadir who would win in a fight: starship enterprise or super star destroyer?

I'm actually more curious about how the Consult can use the Tekne to build a better No-God.

The Inchie Independence Day stuff was just a sidebar.

[slothman92]

Every time I attempt to read these threads I am sure that the regular Bakker posters have read something that I haven't.

[Werthead]

I guess, look at the blog. Hardly something that is going to draw in new readers by the truckloads.

More something that would deter them.

Overlook is small fries, I don't see any of their other books getting much attention on the net or in bookstores I visit. So they don't do much and may not be able to. I can say though that they have always responded to questions I asked about the books.

Orbit UK seems to be treating Bakker the same as their many other midlist authors. He's one of dozens there.

I guess for all 3 it applies that none of them have shown that they are going out of their way to promote him, that is clear. But I think this has largely to do with the sales that has been generated, and I would speculate they just do the same with authors of a similar sales calibre to Bakker.

Bakker is a midlist author for Orbit: Orbit are quite happy with the way he is selling and do take the critical acclaim he gets for things like prose and the metaphysics quite seriously. He is a niche author, but he does sell enough to make a profit, and Orbit are able to take some risks with authors like Bakker because they have the likes of Trudi Canavan, Terry Brooks and the Robert Jordan backlist generating money for them. At the same time, it's clear that Bakker's sales and profile are not going to increase further without some things changing.

I think it is essential at this point for Bakker to either cut his ties with Overlook or find some way of getting a deal between Overlook and Orbit to allow Orbit to get his books on the shelves in the USA. That is vital to building a higher profile. He does need to be a bit better at PR but he doesn't need to turn into Rothfuss or GRRM: authors like KJ Parker sell a lot better than Bakker does whilst being, if anything, even more reticent to engage in PR of any kind. His PR at the moment is a bit odd, especially his using Twitter to post aphorisms of the day rather than engage with fans or other authors. I mean, if Bakker disdains PR activities that's great, but disdaining them and then complaining about why he doesn't sell doesn't really work.

One thing that is clear: the figure of 125,000 sales is a bit low for him (it's an older figure and only applies to the first trilogy) and it's likely at least twice that, but even 250,000 is too low for an author who published his first book eleven years ago and has a total of seven books in print. Sure, he's had some controversy but he's not exactly Orson Scott Card and he should be doing better. The reasons he isn't are partially down to his US publisher (but, to give them credit, they do their best with very limited resources) but he himself could also do more to improve things. I think by this point some fatalism is creeping into his approach which is ultimately self-defeating. If you look at Steven Erikson, even he took over a decade to get a million sales even with ten books and much more frequent and passionate discussion than Bakker has ever had.

Something else he needs to do is also step up the output a bit. He got the three PoN books out in just three years, but it's taken more than four just to get two of this current trilogy out, and maybe more than five by the time it's done (if not longer). He also had a three-year-gap between the trilogies which didn't help. When you're GRRM you can do that kind of thing, but not when you're starting out and building a career. Erikson getting ten massive books out in twelve years is obviously not something every author can do, but it certainly helped him (by nuking the bookshelves with tomes) when other approaches didn't seem to work. If he'd put the pedal down earlier on, he might have had at least the AE trilogy, if not the whole thing, done by now and gotten some more sales before getting to the point of having to get a day job.

[Faint]

Every time I attempt to read these threads I am sure that the regular Bakker posters have read something that I haven't.

Yeah, it does not speak well to the mass appeal of the series. The Bakker readership is basically a niche of a niche.

[Sci-2]

Sure, he's had some controversy but he's not exactly Orson Scott Card and he should be doing better.

I think any controversy surrounding Bakker is negligible potatoes.

Heck, it made Peter Watts mention him online, so it might've been a net positive.

If he'd put the pedal down earlier on, he might have had at least the AE trilogy, if not the whole thing, done by now and gotten some more sales before getting to the point of having to get a day job.

Good point. I think now he does sort of have the right idea though taking his time with TUC. If TUC is a disappointment to many fans, it could be a career killer. But if it blows us all away, it might be a good way to start things up again.

[sologdin]

Every time I attempt to read these threads I am sure that the regular Bakker posters have read something that I haven't.

don't feel bad about that. mostly it's a mix of fabricating things about volumes as yet unwritten while making unwarranted deductions about what is already in print. this combination is standard for serial fiction, wherein involved readers cast themselves into the setting attmpt to prophesy the future course of narrative; it is a consumption technique, and barely qualifies as interpretive.

[lokisnow]

don't feel bad about that. mostly it's a mix of fabricating things about volumes as yet unwritten while making unwarranted deductions about what is already in print. this combination is standard for serial fiction, wherein involved readers cast themselves into the setting attmpt to prophesy the future course of narrative; it is a consumption technique, and barely qualifies as interpretive.

and don't forget that while we do that, we flatter ourselves as being the niche of the niche--the elite--who are the only bless-ed ones who can grasp the excellence/awesomeness/magnitude/blahblahblah of Bakker

After all Bakker's sales failures are evidence of our superiority.

[Francis Buck]

It's funny to think that, as of yet, there hasn't actually been any tentacle rape in TSA. It just seems so right for the series that it's naturally thrown in, and yet, to my knowledge, there aren't even any tentacles in the story (unless you count the skin-spy's..."fingers").

That probably says something about the series. I'm not sure what, but it definitely says something.

[Kalbear]

and don't forget that while we do that, we flatter ourselves as being the niche of the niche--the elite--who are the only bless-ed ones who can grasp the excellence/awesomeness/magnitude/blahblahblah of Bakker

You say this as if you're being sarcastic; one fan cleverly told people who were critical of Bakker that Bakker didn't want them as readers and they don't deserve to read the books.

Which is ya know what every author struggling to make ends meet wants to hear.

[Sci-2]

After all Bakker's sales failures are evidence of our superiority.

I do wonder about this, not from a superiority angle but a question of narrowed interest. I actually think people wouldn't mind getting involved in the metaphysical aspects and character arc discussions. There are digressions into programming languages and philosophy, but there's probably more lecturing and pontificating in Malazan.

[i know Bakker is niche, but it's hard to articulate why that would be save for the depressing nature of the narrative.]

It's funny to think that, as of yet, there hasn't actually been any tentacle rape in TSA. It just seems so right for the series that it's naturally thrown in, and yet, to my knowledge, there aren't even any tentacles in the story (unless you count the skin-spy's..."fingers").

That probably says something about the series. I'm not sure what, but it definitely says something.

Eh, there's a woman raped basically to death by a giant translucent penis, and she utterly enjoys it. I think Bakker's past the point of tentacle porn.

[Callan S.]

Lots of unprotected sex.

It doesn't stop the passing on of STD's! So, of course nooo....oh wait, your right, lots of unprotected sex...

[Larry of the Lawn]

The Heron Spear is actually a copy of The Darkness that Comes Before, because even the No-God isn't immune to meta-fiction.