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Bakker - A Discussion of Rectal Miracles


Francis Buck

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Ah, no. I’m afraid that the argument “from lack of kick-ass female characters with agency” is, unfortunately, completely correct. It is the best explanation for why so many women dislike Bakkerworld. If he had put a few anachronistic, spunky Mary Sues in the books he’d be golden.

But the books aren't all that popular with male readers either. It seems to me any epic fantasy author who captures a good swath of male readership would be rather successful.

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Yeah, the problem with this is that your work has to be good (or perhaps absurd) enough for the point to come across and be separate from the general background noise. Otherwise you just seem as if you're escalating on the trends that have come before.

Poe's law. And, I believe as someone wrote (though I can't remember who, alas) that "You can't parody misogyny, because no matter how over-the-top you make it there's someone out there who is adovcatingit in all seriousness."

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Oh, sure. It’s never gratuitous.

Serwë’s brutalisation is there to make Kellhus feel compassion, a feeling that is alien to him. Serwë then develops agency when she tries to murder the sleeping Cnaiür, which would have been successful if not for Kellhus.

Esmi does not act because she was raped, but to warn Akka. It’s exactly not an example of a female character being motivated by her victimisation. She acts to protect a male character.

Ah, no. I’m afraid that the argument “from lack of kick-ass female characters with agency” is, unfortunately, completely correct. It is the best explanation for why so many women dislike Bakkerworld. If he had put a few anachronistic, spunky Mary Sues in the books he’d be golden.

This is why the parody you posted a page or so back on "dangerous women" was so brilliant and pointed.

Mim. is about the closest we get. I would have liked to see how women utilize power in Earwa outside of sexual means, but I guess that doesn't float into his theme.

Kudos on the person who mentioned that the issues do range beyond his fantasy work, though. It was OK (I guess) in Neuropath (which had far, far more disturbing ramifications, honestly) but it became predictable for Disciple of the Dog and lessened that novel considerably IMO. (that, and the preference of misanthropic rants over plot/character development. Bakker lives partially in la-la land to think that novel would proudly sit next on the bookshelf of a Grisham/Patterson et al. fan)

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Poe's law. And, I believe as someone wrote (though I can't remember who, alas) that "You can't parody misogyny, because no matter how over-the-top you make it there's someone out there who is adovcatingit in all seriousness."

Are you sure they weren't specifically talking about rap videos? Because if so, I would probably agree with them.

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that, and the preference of misanthropic rants over plot/character development. Bakker lives partially in la-la land to think that novel would proudly sit next on the bookshelf of a Grisham/Patterson et al. fan

Neuropath was garbage. I just pretend Bakker paid someone to ghost write that to disastrous effect.

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I found the token females in Neuropath far more offensive and misogynisticly portrayed than the token females in Earwa.

I suspect Neuropath's lack of success had little to do with the portrayal of women though.

And more and more I'm coming around to the idea that depiction of women in PoN & AE isn't necessarily the barrier to female readers as [that] people assume it to be.

We should consider the possibility that the "lack of Mary Sues" argument is just a way for fans and the author to deceive themselves about why the book isn't popular.

There's a host of reasons people didn't like TDTCB, and given the number of SFF authors out there who've had middling success, I'm not sure we can really pin down why the series isn't more popular.

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Yeah, it's not just his portrayal of women (although it certainly contributes) it's a whole host of stuff that makes various people not pick it up.

And to be clear, popularity is not a measure of quality.

When I looked at the one-star reviews on Amazon for TDTCB, it seemed to me that treatment of women wasn't a big problem for most. [seems to come up more in the two-star ones though.]

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Poe's law. And, I believe as someone wrote (though I can't remember who, alas) that "You can't parody misogyny, because no matter how over-the-top you make it there's someone out there who is adovcatingit in all seriousness."

Yeah, someone should get this memo to Thicke. Personally, I'm beginning to believe that inversion is the way to go.

Neuropath was garbage. I just pretend Bakker paid someone to ghost write that to disastrous effect.

Neuropath was gloriously earnest. Some might say that any sexism is worse because of the setting but said "misanthropic* rants" become hilarious when you get them all at once, in their brilliant intensity. The sheer relentlessness of the EAMD is funny in it's own right.

*Is Bakker a misanthrope? I see this claimed but it seems...strange, off somehow. He doesn't seem to really like BBT (which makes his behavior slightly masochistic). Would you assume that people making similar statements have some sort of deep abiding hatred for said animals? Why should people who try to put humanity within the natural and avoid all these nice, uplifting views of human cognition and behavior get accused of being misanthropes? Isn't that just a comforting dismissal? Oh no, you attack this deeply held romantic belief we have, you must hate us!

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Yes, I was thinking the same thing.

Some readers may identify, but then many readers identify with crap like Twilight. Cnauir is specifically outlined to be a brutal, vicious man, and not "admirable" at all in a hypermasculine sense due to his repressed homosexuality alone. edit: C. is badass though in all the traditional ways.

More then that, the most important thing is that Cnauir's hyper-masculinity is a front. It's an act. And a somewhat pathetic one at that.

He's not a masculine ideal, he's a sad man trying far too hard at being "cool" in order to fit in.

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I didn't think Neuropath was that great. Not bad, but not great either.

I don't get the misogyny complaint about it though. I guess I found the reveal about the main female character disturbing (in the way it's supposed to be), not offensive.

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Ah, no. I’m afraid that the argument “from lack of kick-ass female characters with agency” is, unfortunately, completely correct. It is the best explanation for why so many women dislike Bakkerworld. If he had put a few anachronistic, spunky Mary Sues in the books he’d be golden.

Who said anything about "anachronistic" Mary Sues? The Classical World in real life had plenty of powerful, capable women who weren't weird son-molesters or uplifted concubines/whores. They even occasionally led military forces. Granted, that wasn't an everyday thing - such people were exceptional, as a female Conphas would have to be. But it took Bakker until Book 4 to finally introduce one (Serwa).

That said, I actually don't mind Serwe and Esmenet as characters in their own right. Both felt real to me. It was just annoying that the only female view-point characters we got are heavily sexualized, and Bakker keeps returning to that particular well.

Neuropath was garbage. I just pretend Bakker paid someone to ghost write that to disastrous effect.

Neuropath could have been something much better, if Bakker could interspace his exposition dumps with cliff-hanger chapters and a quick-moving plot Dan Brown-style.

I don't understand why the man can't try his hand at a horror novel. Bakker's not much of a thriller author, but he can write some horrific scenes.

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There is a part of me that suspects that Bakker never intended for the gender thing to be anything like what it was turned into but for some reason he preferred to act like it was some intent that people just didn't understand rather than a blind spot that opened him up to criticism. I have no way of proving this, of course, but I could see it.

It goes something like this:

-gets attacked for problems with gender

-gets defensive and decides to up the ante on supposed authorial intent beyond any that originally existed

-says stuff like it was almost race instead of gender as some kind of "I could have done that" something or other

-realizes it is perhaps better to have less of an online presence

I could be completely wrong, but sometimes I just think he wanted to write some epic Dunish, LoTRingish fantasy with philosophy thrown in, did indeed have a blind spot, and then couldn't help but wading into the muck in the early days of the interwebs.

It follows a pattern of events that I've seen a lot on the internet lately

1. Man writes, says or draws something that could be taken the wrong way

2. It is taken the wrong way.

3. Some people point out the issues politely, others less so.

4. Man sees mostly the less polite responses, and so makes condescending and flippant or defensive and angry reponse

5. Previously polite critics are now less polite.

6. Man is now angrier and more defensive and lashes out, digging himself even deeper.

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Then that's similarly bullshit when talking about actual rape that happens. If vaguely feeling horny and wanting to fuck is rape, what is it when your main character can make anyone kill themselves in his name?

Might be an interesting counterpoint to HEs notion that there isn't that much rape in the books; Kellhus by that definition rapes everything he comes in contact with.

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Then that's similarly bullshit when talking about actual rape that happens. If vaguely feeling horny and wanting to fuck is rape, what is it when your main character can make anyone kill themselves in his name?

Might be an interesting counterpoint to HEs notion that there isn't that much rape in the books; Kellhus by that definition rapes everything he comes in contact with.

Yeah? I thought we had a discussion about this and the notion went by quite uncontroversially? Doesn't change the argument about Kellhus being raped by Aurang.

As for that..well, at the risk of plowing headfirst into this minefield...nothing happened did it?

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