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Bakker - A Discussion of Rectal Miracles


Francis Buck

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Going through the Amazon reviews of TDTCB, the bigger issues seem to be boredom, too many names of minor characters and largely irrelevant places, [and] accusations of pretentiousness.

People do mention the amount of rape that comes up, but this doesn't seem like the chief complaint.

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Going through the Amazon reviews of TDTCB, the bigger issues seem to be boredom, too many names of minor characters and largely irrelevant places, [and] accusations of pretentiousness.

People do mention the amount of rape that comes up, but this doesn't seem like the chief complaint.

Not the pretentiousness :P?

Haha, yeah. For those of us that really like the series, it's like the misogyny issues are a convenient excuse as to why it's not more popular when there are several other factors.

+1.Well,that at least is something Bakker has chosen to do and stand by.Failing by choice is the best type of failure. If the market doesn't "get it" it's their fault for not getting "intelligent" fiction.

I often wonder what Bakker would say if he saw our discussion going down those lines.

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I think he meant that said pretentiousness is yet another explanation and not boredom or unnecessary locale name drops or whatever the Amazon issues are.

Kinda. I was skimming the Amazon reviews and the word "pretentious" definitely stuck out to me, especially one particular example talking about his prose.
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Haha, yeah. For those of us that really like the series, it's like the misogyny issues are a convenient excuse as to why it's not more popular when there are several other factors.

That's how I'm starting to feel more and more. I mean, look at Sady Doyle's negative reviews of Harry Potter and ASOIAF. If those books didn't have huge online fan bases, you might think women in general had lots of issues with both series.

But when you look beyond the sample of females reading Doyle's site, you see that's not the case. With Bakker the sample of readers is already much, much smaller. So it's easier to assume it the books are unpopular in such a way as to make fans and author more daring, more capable of reading [or writing] something deeper.

Yet it seems to me the reviews indicate simple dissatisfaction with the text more than the depictions.

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I agree Sci. Bakker thinks Truth Shines in his writing. But Truth doesn't make good prose for a fantasy novel.

Oh, I don't personally think TDTCB is a bad novel, and I know at least some people thought it was a strong debut.

But reactions vary, and it seems like the usual reasons that come up for why TDTCB doesn't sell better are the ones that afflict other midlist SFF authors. Valente is critiqued for trying too hard, and Hal Duncan got similar complaints for Vellum. I'm guessing many authors get charges of being boring or having too much extraneous world building.

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I agree with unJon's post above, and it's unfortunate really, because I absolutely believe that Bakker has a genuine knack for hitting on some really profound ideas, both huge in scale, and then also quite personal and human. I just think his delivery system is flawed. That's why I've said before that his prose feels forced in certain ways. It often sounds (to me) like he's trying really, really hard to make his shit sound revelatory and important, to the point that it sometimes borders on being cheesy at times (and yes, absolutely pretentious on occasion). And yet, if he just dialed it down a notch or two, it would work, because he really is saying some profound shit. I kind of think a more restrained, minimalistic style would have worked better for a lot of the series -- more along the lines of the Dune series, or McCarthy's later work, like No Country for Old Men or The Road (which is funny because they're obviously huge influences). Speaking of the latter though, I've often felt as if his prose was a not-so-good attempt at replicating what McCarthy did in Blood Meridian. That sort of Biblical, scriptural feel to the text. I really think that's what he was going for, and in theory it's a fucking brilliant idea for the sort of story he's telling, but it just didn't really work out. Bakker simply didn't have the mechanical experience in writing, when he started, that someone like McCarthy did (it doesn't help that McCarthy is a goddamn genius writer, in every category). But this also ties into how evident it is that Bakker's getting better with every installment. At this point, I honestly think the final entry into the series will be fucking phenomenally written. He was, in a way, "new" to writing with TDTCB. But the difference in execution between that book and The False Sun is enormous.

ETA: I meant to add this in, but I really don't think Bakker found (and became confident in) his "voice" until the second trilogy. That's when it really felt like he found his own style, and embraced it completely. TAE is when he "came into his own as a writer", and I genuinely expect him to get better with every installment.

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Yeah? I thought we had a discussion about this and the notion went by quite uncontroversially? Doesn't change the argument about Kellhus being raped by Aurang.
It changes the prior argument quite a bit, about how Bakker doesn't have more rape than other books and it's not that misogynistic, blah blah.

If you're of the opinion that any kind of involuntary control is rape (I'm not, but apparently that's what this odd 'we' think) to the point where Kellhus being made horny is tantamount to rape, there are some odd things that come about. Viagra being rape is a pretty weird one, but let's not go to real world notions. Let's just stick with Earwa. In this case, we have the villains who are tentacle rape demons and make everyone they contact want to fuck them. Or you have the hero, Kellhus, who makes everyone around him want to fuck him, die for him, love him or do anything he wants.

Basically, every major power in the world of Earwa is a rapist by that notion. Not just a rapist - a rapist of thousands, of millions. Those that think this way then wonder why women - who are statistically 4 times more likely to be raped than men - would have a vague problem with the overall theme of the story. That in both cases you get the ever-common rapist fantasy of 'in the end, they wanted to be raped' makes it even more awesome as a theme, no?

I'll also add that there is a very distinct difference between not having any characters that are relatable to you vs. being actively insulted by gross inaccurate generalities of your gender.

As to the best argument about why so many women dislike Bakker's work - you're missing the obvious one from Bakker's supposed thinking. Women are smarter than men, according to him. They're more educated. They're significantly better able to learn and to process information, all according to Bakker. If women are turned off by Bakker's work, it means that it is simply too lowbrow and basic for them. They are, as a rule, more bored by the pretentiousness, more able to see the obvious twists and turns, more able to see through the flimsy evopsych rationalizations that Bakker puts forth as truisms and more able to critically think that the writing isn't that great. All of this discussion about how women want characters with agency, they want relatable characters, sympathetic characters, characters who aren't sex workers - that's all rationalization by men, and it's there simply to hide the truth: that the books just aren't that good. Of course we men all rebel against it - we all like it, so it must be good and it must be the Others that don't get it. We like it, so it must be clever and witty and interesting. Which seems more likely - that a poorly received fantasy series with bad critical review is really, truly, excellent work that somehow women don't understand or are turned off of, or that navel-gazing fantasy geeks are deceiving themselves by thinking that the series with kickass god philosophers is truly a work of art?

:P

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If Kellhus isn’t raped then neither are Valrissa or Esmi.

(The distinction might be that Kellhus actually resists the rape better than Valrissa, but that argument seems morally very questionable to me.)

But I don’t really care about the semantics of the word “rape” and am happy to use it only in the narrowest sense of a forced sexual violation of a completely unwilling victim. In that case the number of rapes in the books drops dramatically and the Inchoroi can no longer be described as rape aliens.

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There's a host of reasons people didn't like TDTCB, and given the number of SFF authors out there who've had middling success, I'm not sure we can really pin down why the series isn't more popular.

I think at the heart of it is the fact that the books are not on the shelves of most bookstores in the States, due to the aforementioned problems with Overlook. With 85% of sales still of paper books, that's the biggest problem standing in the way of the books taking off. Apparently they do much better in the UK, where Orbit ensure they are kept on the shelves (my local Waterstones has a fairly small SFF section, but there's always one or two Bakker in there). If they are on the shelves and still not selling, than the other things can be explored more in depth.

But I don’t really care about the semantics of the word “rape” and am happy to use it only in the narrowest sense of a forced sexual violation of a completely unwilling victim. In that case the number of rapes in the books drops dramatically and the Inchoroi can no longer be described as rape aliens.

I think 'Inchoroi using their sex magic/pheremones/presence thing to make victims willing' still counts as rape. Otherwise drugging someone so they can't resist or say no is not rape, and it most certainly is.

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Except Bakker sought out his critic.

Then he publicly complained about Larry liking that critic, and worried Larry was yet another man who was deceived.

Then he wrote a few more posts that got noticed.

Oh....

Saw some of it at the time, didn't realise it went that far, I stopped paying attention when the other person was editing peoples comments on their blog, plus watching Bakker debate online is often uncomfortable viewing. So it made it an easy choice for me not to pursue what was happening.

On the subject of the two triologies, i , at the moment, prefer the first one. It had better characters for me, Conphas and Cnauir. Although i like Cnauir as a character, he is one of my favourites, I wouldn't want him living anywhere near me in real life or socialise with the guy or anything.

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Which seems more likely - that a poorly received fantasy series with bad critical review is really, truly, excellent work that somehow women don't understand or are turned off of, or that navel-gazing fantasy geeks are deceiving themselves by thinking that the series with kickass god philosophers is truly a work of art?

Are there a lot of bad critical reviews? My understanding was TDTCB was at least somewhat well received?

I mean, it's got to be better than Gardens of the Moon, or at least way more organized. That might be a case where GotM was more fun.

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All of this discussion about how women want characters with agency, they want relatable characters, sympathetic characters, characters who aren't sex workers - that's all rationalization by men, and it's there simply to hide the truth: that the books just aren't that good. Of course we men all rebel against it - we all like it, so it must be good and it must be the Others that don't get it. We like it, so it must be clever and witty and interesting. Which seems more likely - that a poorly received fantasy series with bad critical review is really, truly, excellent work that somehow women don't understand or are turned off of, or that navel-gazing fantasy geeks are deceiving themselves by thinking that the series with kickass god philosophers is truly a work of art?

:P

Cute, but doesn't fly. I've read many, many critiques here and elsewhere from female readers complaining about the lack of agency, how they want more variety / why is it only from the prostitute POV, etc. -- alongside the other complaints about the prose, supposed pretentiousness, poor pacing ("hard to get into") etc. Now, as I stated earlier, this might not be representative of the mass opinion; it's simply the loudest and by far the most propagated in the usual echo-chambers.

Most of us here are fairly well-read, and most of us are aware that best-selling & popularity is not a proper yardstick for quality writing. (I suppose the last part was tongue in cheek with the inclusion of the smiley, but c'mon...) Cormac McCarthy, as someone mentioned on here as an interesting influence on Bakker's prose style, didn't become a highbrow-household name until All the Pretty Horses, or arguably The Road, when Opera selected it for her book of the month, no matter that his best work (Suttree, Blood Meridian) was published in his lean years. Now, I doubt Bakker will have a career surge later in life like many challenging authors: this is an issue with infusing literary techniques in genre, in that the audience that appreciates them do not appreciate all the baggage that comes with the genre label. And Bakker in particular, with his strange online ineptitude, would have benefitted by remaining silent and thus remote a la Cormac or Pynchon.

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Except Bakker sought out his critic.

Then he publicly complained about Larry liking that critic, and worried Larry was yet another man who was deceived.

Then he wrote a few more posts that got noticed.

That was a big mistake on Bakker's part, IMO. For one, that wasn't a 'critic' but a troll, and you know what they say about feeding trolls...*

The other issue was the immediate tokenization of that 'critic' by the SWMB (sensitive white male brigade) to reinforce the agency / white male guilt fetish -- but I fear we're treading close to the board's policy of not discussing other websites, so I'll stop at that.

...

*(I do enjoy perusing that site, btw, as the author is very funny and sometimes razor-sharp... but the Privileged-Thai-Nationalist tone eventually gets grating)

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I think one problem is that Bakker is simply too dense for people just wishing for a bit of fun, yet not technically good enough for the "real" literati. Ending up in an uncomfortable middle-zone.

That's probably the best two sentence answer. The issue is that arguably books like Dune occupy the same uncomfortable middle-zone.

Also, I wasn't saying that Bakker followed the script perfectly (he seemed to get more condescending over time, rather than more angry), or that none of it was his fault.

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