Jump to content

Bakker - A Discussion of Rectal Miracles


Francis Buck

Recommended Posts

I think at the heart of it is the fact that the books are not on the shelves of most bookstores in the States, due to the aforementioned problems with Overlook. With 85% of sales still of paper books, that's the biggest problem standing in the way of the books taking off. Apparently they do much better in the UK, where Orbit ensure they are kept on the shelves (my local Waterstones has a fairly small SFF section, but there's always one or two Bakker in there). If they are on the shelves and still not selling, than the other things can be explored more in depth.

I'm not sure that is enough, Wert. Usually, I'll find single copies of TDTCB and WLW here in Canada. But you have to special order basically any other book by Bakker while (and I realize these are the clear heavy-hitters) Erikson and Martin both enjoy basically full shelves to ensure full purchases of their epics. Worse yet, if someone buys either of those copies than weeks pass before another appears to take its place.

Cute, but doesn't fly. I've read many, many critiques here and elsewhere from female readers complaining about the lack of agency, how they want more variety / why is it only from the prostitute POV, etc. -- alongside the other complaints about the prose, supposed pretentiousness, poor pacing ("hard to get into") etc. Now, as I stated earlier, this might not be representative of the mass opinion; it's simply the loudest and by far the most propagated in the usual echo-chambers.

Most of us here are fairly well-read, and most of us are aware that best-selling & popularity is not a proper yardstick for quality writing. (I suppose the last part was tongue in cheek with the inclusion of the smiley, but c'mon...) Cormac McCarthy, as someone mentioned on here as an interesting influence on Bakker's prose style, didn't become a highbrow-household name until All the Pretty Horses, or arguably The Road, when Opera selected it for her book of the month, no matter that his best work (Suttree, Blood Meridian) was published in his lean years. Now, I doubt Bakker will have a career surge later in life like many challenging authors: this is an issue with infusing literary techniques in genre, in that the audience that appreciates them do not appreciate all the baggage that comes with the genre label. And Bakker in particular, with his strange online ineptitude, would have benefitted by remaining silent and thus remote a la Cormac or Pynchon.

Good posts, kuenjato.

+1 Kellhus is raped.

The issue of sales remains contended. While a certain number of people are turned away by the online rhetoric, I'm certain a larger portion of his readership don't pay any attention to the online ecology of authors.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So madness, you have no issue with Kellhus being a rapist on a massive scale then? If you do, what is the difference between his use of his power and Aurangs use of his power?

If not, do you see how a book that basically has two competing institutionalized rape camps might be a smidgen discomfiting to those who are fairly likely to be raped in their lifetime?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The issue of sales remains contended. While a certain number of people are turned away by the online rhetoric, I'm certain a larger portion of his readership don't pay any attention to the online ecology of authors.

I think the challenge is there's no reliable way to measure effects of online interaction. My understanding is those who've looked into [it] have said there was no dip in Bakker's sales after any online interaction.

So seems to me at best one can say it's a missed opportunity to add readers....but I think even if Bakker had successfully managed to get people to understand what he was trying to do with his text, that doesn't mean people will think it's worth buying the book.

So I write off online interaction as an effect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So madness, you have no issue with Kellhus being a rapist on a massive scale then? If you do, what is the difference between his use of his power and Aurangs use of his power?

If not, do you see how a book that basically has two competing institutionalized rape camps might be a smidgen discomfiting to those who are fairly likely to be raped in their lifetime?

Wouldn't most people note the lack of consent as something other than rape? I mean, there's no consent so you could lump it under rape but it seems...greater, more multi-faceted than "just" sexual domination. How many people read that and don't think "Kellhus is mind controlling people" but instead think "Kellhus is raping people"? One seems to lead to the other but I would asume that most people would make a distinction.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure I even understand what Kal is getting at.

Surely a magic spell that causes an irrational spike of lust in you is akin to a rape drug? Seems like thinking that Kellhus isn't raped seems to [would] have greater moral implications?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think at the heart of it is the fact that the books are not on the shelves of most bookstores in the States, due to the aforementioned problems with Overlook. With 85% of sales still of paper books, that's the biggest problem standing in the way of the books taking off. Apparently they do much better in the UK, where Orbit ensure they are kept on the shelves (my local Waterstones has a fairly small SFF section, but there's always one or two Bakker in there). If they are on the shelves and still not selling, than the other things can be explored more in depth.

Perhaps it is different in other parts of the world, but I am certain that the overwhelming number of books that are sold where I live occur via online purchase at Amazon (be it hard cover, paperback or an electronic file). As things stand, Barnes & Nobles is the only major retailer still in existence and more and more of their stores are closing every day. One need only type the phrase "book store" on Yelp in Los Angeles to realize how little brick and mortar book retailers matter anymore here.

Mind you, I'm talking about the second most populous metropolitan area in the country, and the same applies throughout the state, which is easily the most populous state in the country.

In other words, I think stocked bookshelves has very little do with this issue, and less so with every passing day.

I will remark that, when Bakker's books were first available electronically, they were noticeably more expensive than other releases in the genre. And this is when they were already in paperback, which actually cost less at the time than did their Kindle counterparts, which I remembering thinking was pretty strange at the time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not sure that is enough, Wert. Usually, I'll find single copies of TDTCB and WLW here in Canada. But you have to special order basically any other book by Bakker while (and I realize these are the clear heavy-hitters) Erikson and Martin both enjoy basically full shelves to ensure full purchases of their epics. Worse yet, if someone buys either of those copies than weeks pass before another appears to take its place.

Erikson is an interesting one, as his sales are certainly higher than Bakker's, but he's still not a heavy-hitter at all in the fantasy genre in terms of sales, not like Martin, Goodkind etc or even relative newcomers like Abercrombie and Sanderson, who have outsold him.

Also, Bakker is published by Penguin in Canada, who I assume are more proactive at getting his books on the shelves. In the USA Bakker is published by Overlook, who are essentially a small press (not like a tiny small press like the recently-demised Night Shade, but much smaller than any of the big publishers), hence the higher prices even for the ebooks. That's where the issue there comes from. My communications with Orbit UK indicate they are much happier with Bakker's progress here. He's not one of their runaway success authors like Brent Weeks or Trudi Canavan, but he makes a profit for them and does enough to stay in print (and in 2006 he had a reasonable turn-out at his Forbidden Planet signing in London, probably on a par with Erikson's a few years later for Toll the Hounds).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

presence thing to make victims willing' still counts as rape

that's what makes it moderately interesting. after all, charm and good looks and deep pockets makes people willing. same difference?

Hm? I can never tell when you're being serious solo...
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So madness, you have no issue with Kellhus being a rapist on a massive scale then? If you do, what is the difference between his use of his power and Aurangs use of his power?

If not, do you see how a book that basically has two competing institutionalized rape camps might be a smidgen discomfiting to those who are fairly likely to be raped in their lifetime?

If Kellhus isn’t raped then neither are Valrissa or Esmi.

(The distinction might be that Kellhus actually resists the rape better than Valrissa, but that argument seems morally very questionable to me.)

But I don’t really care about the semantics of the word “rape” and am happy to use it only in the narrowest sense of a forced sexual violation of a completely unwilling victim. In that case the number of rapes in the books drops dramatically and the Inchoroi can no longer be described as rape aliens.

I might side with HE here, kalbear, though I seem to remember discussions in the past blending into power/Dunyain/rape.

Regardless, I think you need to be more clear with your distinctions here and now.

Wouldn't most people note the lack of consent as something other than rape? I mean, there's no consent so you could lump it under rape but it seems...greater, more faceted than "just" sexual domination. How many people read that and don't think "Kellhus is mind controlling people" but instead think "Kellhus is raping people"? One seems to lead to the other but I would asume that most people would make a distinction.

Depends on the inclusion of sexual volition vs. volition - in either case, it's a question of agency?

Hm? I can never tell when you're being serious solo...

I think solo's serious here.

Erikson is an interesting one, as his sales are certainly higher than Bakker's, but he's still not a heavy-hitter at all in the fantasy genre in terms of sales, not like Martin, Goodkind etc or even relative newcomers like Abercrombie and Sanderson, who have outsold him.

Also, Bakker is published by Penguin in Canada, who I assume are more proactive at getting his books on the shelves. In the USA Bakker is published by Overlook, who are essentially a small press (not like a tiny small press like the recently-demised Night Shade, but much smaller than any of the big publishers), hence the higher prices even for the ebooks. That's where the issue there comes from. My communications with Orbit UK indicate they are much happier with Bakker's progress here. He's not one of their runaway success authors like Brent Weeks or Trudi Canavan, but he makes a profit for them and does enough to stay in print (and in 2006 he had a reasonable turn-out at his Forbidden Planet signing in London, probably on a par with Erikson's a few years later for Toll the Hounds).

I believe Goodkind shares in their shelf space. Interesting about price of ebooks. Do you think signings and touring would increase his [bakker's] sales? (Though you make quality arguments about it being the publishers in question.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cute, but doesn't fly. I've read many, many critiques here and elsewhere from female readers complaining about the lack of agency, how they want more variety / why is it only from the prostitute POV, etc. -- alongside the other complaints about the prose, supposed pretentiousness, poor pacing ("hard to get into") etc. Now, as I stated earlier, this might not be representative of the mass opinion; it's simply the loudest and by far the most propagated in the usual echo-chambers.

An interesting test would be to put Bakker in with other depictions of misogynistic dystopias and see where it falls.

What makes people suspect the work is a celebration of, or at least not a rebuke of, misogyny rather than a critique?

I mean the idea that his feminist leanings are after the fact defenses is something even some fans believe. So how does one tell the difference? In the past there's been suggestions that certain texts clue the reader, and that Bakker lacks these clues.

[Hmm, maybe "cue" is the right word here instead of "clue"]

Sadly, however, I've not seen anyone go through all the Earwa novels and make a definitive comparison.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Wouldn't most people note the lack of consent as something other than rape? I mean, there's no consent so you could lump it under rape but it seems...greater, more faceted than "just" sexual domination.
Well, presumably it's worse than rape. Kellhus causes people to not just want to have sex, but want love. He causes people to kill themselves because they're doing it for Kellhus.

If causing Kellhus to want to have sex is rape, what is causing people to want to have sex, love, worship and sacrifice?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sup y'all? Been following this thread for awhile, and I'm also a somewhat regular poster on Madness' TSA forum so I recognize a few names here. Just want to say great discussion so far, you guys really know how to pick these books apart. Now, as for the topic at hand...

There's a certain stereotype that fantasy authors are clumsy when it comes to handling real-world issues, because fantasy is often derided as a juvenile story form. What I think happened was Bakker's detractors probably heard about the prostitute main character and went ahead and wrote what she wanted to write what she wanted to write without giving the book an honest read. Her mind was made up from the start. I'm not trying to say Bakker is flawless in this regard, because god knows Serwe or Esmi getting groped or hollered at every time they walk past a group of drunk dudes in the first trilogy got tiresome, fast, but because you would have to be willfully dense to read honest-to-god misogyny in these books. That is, misogyny so vile and in-your-face that there's no question the author is trying to smuggle his views through the story. If anything, the books are quite misandrist (look at all the moral condemnation of mans' appetites, or just look at the inchies which are earwa's frat boys taken to a horrifying extreme). There's plenty wrong with the books already, as much as I enjoy them, and I think trying to rope it into the current internet-wide discourse on feminism was a silly move.

edit: in the sense that Kellhus knows your deepest, darkest secrets in order to wield you like a tool/object, then yeah, Kellhus is definitely a rapist in some sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's no mystery about Bakker's sales. He writes in a way which is really not commercially appealing. The combo of unrelenting misery in terms of plot, a dense (and IMO quite pompous) writing style, lack of humor and misanthropic messages hammered home is a pretty much a killer commercially. He's doing quite well considering all this.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think solo's serious here.

Oh. Then I must ask: does it matter? We can create problems for...libertarian (?) consent by creating a spectrum all the way from Laplace's demon to extremely successful manipulator to blind and deaf (and presumably less competent) seducer and asking where free will comes in . Kellhus and Neil would just claim that they're just manipulating natural mechanisms and consent is illusory sure, but can't we still say-based on the way we judge consent- that they are wrong?

After all, we don't care if a child claims to "consent" to sex with an adult nor do we ignore the power difference between say, a prison guard and an inmate, why should we do so here? Does any of this require actual free will?

EDIT: In retrospect this could all have been summarised as "Fuck libertarianism" :|

Well, presumably it's worse than rape. Kellhus causes people to not just want to have sex, but want love. He causes people to kill themselves because they're doing it for Kellhus.

If causing Kellhus to want to have sex is rape, what is causing people to want to have sex, love, worship and sacrifice?

The question of what exactly Kellhus does is not that interesting is it? We can call it domination or enslavement come up with some other word.

The question (which you brought up) is this: do most women read Kellhus's manipulations as rape which then turns them off the series?

Like you said, I am not a part of the social group most likely to be raped so I cannot speak about how they would take it but I suspect that I'm not the only one that differentiates in my head between rape Galian-style and rape (or domination or whatever) Dunyain-style.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's no mystery about Bakker's sales. He writes in a way which is really not commercially appealing. The combo of unrelenting misery in terms of plot, a dense (and IMO quite pompous) writing style, lack of humor and misanthropic messages hammered home is a pretty much a killer commercially. He's doing quite well considering all this.

I think there's maybe 3 funny scenes in the whole series. Kellhus imitating Cnauir, the skin-eaters and the beggar, and... okay, 2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There's plenty wrong with the books already, as much as I enjoy them, and I think trying to rope it into the current internet-wide discourse on feminism was a silly move.

I don't [think] anyone has done this [roping]. Most criticism of Bakker, outside of this board, seems to be criticism of an online persona. [in fact if Bakker's work was part of a general feminist discourse it might actually move copies.]

Beyond that, I suspect outside of his fans no one really cares that much about Bakker one way or another. I think Wert is primarily correct that not having him on the shelves is a big problem, but I think for reasons already stated there are other barriers.

It's part of the problem of having a 8-9 volume fantasy be both your debut and best work to date. To really appreciate the work in AE you have to go through the first trilogy, and sadly TDTCB seems to be a bad appetizer.

Probably why Sanderson did trilogies and stand alones. Same with Abercrombie. Though Erickson got a good amount of cash for his ten volume Malazan though he had some work published before right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't [think] anyone has done this [roping]. Most criticism of Bakker, outside of this board, seems to be criticism of an online persona. [in fact if Bakker's work was part of a general feminist discourse it might actual move copies.]

Oh, no, not you guys, I meant the original blog that called Bakker out which eventually led to the guy having to mount a less-than-stellar defense.

I re-read TDTCB recently and though I enjoyed it more knowing where it was heading, I could still tell it's a very ponderous and slow work. There's just not enough meat for readers who are already on the fence about continuing the series to chew on. It's a shame.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, no, not you guys, I meant the original blog that called Bakker out which eventually led to the guy having to mount a less-than-stellar defense.

I know, but even that had nothing to do with Bakker's actual books. That was a spoof on an interview he gave. And I think the number of people aware of his antics probably numbered around a few thousand if we want to be generous. Of that number, how many people were ever going to read the books?

I think the only person who looked at the actual books with a thought to feminist concerns was Larry of OF Blog?

Bakker just isn't on most people's radars.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...