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Bakker - A Discussion of Rectal Miracles


Francis Buck

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It doesn't stop the passing on of STD's! So, of course nooo....oh wait, your right, lots of unprotected sex...

It's unclear if the baby dies immediately, so all fertilized eggs are dead, or if the baby dies at childbirth but gestates normally.

I'm guessing it's at whatever point the brain starts determining whether you're alive or dead?

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[i know Bakker is niche, but it's hard to articulate why that would be save for the depressing nature of the narrative.]

As a starting point, I think series lends itself to endless discussion about the trimmings of the story at the expense of fostering discussion about the story itself. I don't imagine the female half of the population will find entire threads devoted to discussing exactly what type of creature Esmenet had sex with particularly engaging. A mainstream book series cannot be built on love of minutia and esotericism.

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As a starting point, I think series lends itself to endless discussion about the trimmings of the story at the expense of fostering discussion about the story itself. I don't imagine the female half of the population will find entire threads devoted to discussing exactly what type of creature Esmenet had sex with particularly engaging. A mainstream book series cannot be built on love of minutia and esotericism.

You know, I was going to disagree with you, but I do see what you're saying. ASOIAF and Malazan have people debating varied points regarding the narrative, but there's a good chunk of actual history and character along with the metaphysics and minutia.

We are kind of focused on what might considered dressing in another big fantasy series. And a lot of that is due to the curtain the author has deliberately place on the plot.

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I don’t agree about niche. Every time this board has threads about which books have the best prose, the best battles, the most memorable acts of magic, the best character, good historical fiction, fantasy not set in faux medieval England, etc., Bakker comes out at the top. Lots of folks mention it as a favourite, and one can easily read Bakker just as an the epic fantasy.

Our little thread here is niche. Sure. (A bit like discussing the names of Lord Spicer Sunglass’s ships, of the religion of faceless men, or how Howland Reed warged into Ned Stark when he killed Arthur Dayne. We’ve all been there.)

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Huh? When does this happen? End of TWP?

If that's the scene you're talking about, well, it is controversial as Hell, but I don't know how it can be interpreted as what you just described.

Yeah, end of TWP - I don't know how it can be interpreted in any way but what I described. Aurax rapes the woman and due to his pheromone powers or something she enjoys it. He then tosses her to the Sranc.

eta: To be clear I'm not making a political argument about sexism/misogyny. This is just how I recall the end scene.

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how Howland Reed warged into Ned Stark when he killed Arthur Dayne.

I'm going to derail this thread temporarily, because using the massive powers of deduction given to me by discussing Bakker non-stop for years - I discovered recently the actual story relevance of the Isle of Green Men. It's clearly where Lyanna and Rhaegar were married. The Green Men are bound by an oath of silence, and the Isle of Faces is the perfect place for Rhaegar to marry Lyanna, given the weirwoods and shit. Rhaegar wanted to keep his second marriage secret, because he didn't anticipate the Rebellion. Instead, his chief concern was the Dornish. The Dornish might be angered by Rhaegar spurning his wife for Lyanna, but marrying Lyanna and legitimizing any children by her, would, in Dornish eyes, be cause for rebellion itself. So Rhaegar married Lyanna in the eyes of her gods, but in a place where literally no word of it would escape from.

This is also where Bran comes into relevance story-wise. From his tree-throne, he can watch the actual marriage ceremony as it occurred.

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I don’t agree about niche. Every time this board has threads about which books have the best prose, the best battles, the most memorable acts of magic, the best character, good historical fiction, fantasy not set in faux medieval England, etc., Bakker comes out at the top. Lots of folks mention it as a favourite, and one can easily read Bakker just as an the epic fantasy.

Our little thread here is niche. Sure. (A bit like discussing the names of Lord Spicer Sunglass’s ships, of the religion of faceless men, or how Howland Reed warged into Ned Stark when he killed Arthur Dayne. We’ve all been there.)

Yeah, I agree. If I was to compare Bakker's work to another series in tone and complexity, I would say the closest match would be Dune, and that series was insanely popular. Maybe there's just less sci fi/fantasy fans willing to engage with challenging reading nowadays. If so, it would be a shame if authors had to start dumbing down their writing just to have more mass appeal.

Also, I think these Bakker threads are great. The only reason I don't participate much is because I'm terrible at articulating myself, especially when it comes to writing.

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I do wonder about this, not from a superiority angle but a question of narrowed interest. I actually think people wouldn't mind getting involved in the metaphysical aspects and character arc discussions. There are digressions into programming languages and philosophy, but there's probably more lecturing and pontificating in Malazan.

[i know Bakker is niche, but it's hard to articulate why that would be save for the depressing nature of the narrative.]

I put it this way: Bakker is niche but Erikson is way nicher (Bakker is much tighter, much more focused, you don't have to read at least 3 volumes to 'get it' and his prose is frankly better from the off), yet is more successful. Dune is not exactly an easy read either, but it's the biggest-selling individual SF novel of all time.

I don’t agree about niche. Every time this board has threads about which books have the best prose, the best battles, the most memorable acts of magic, the best character, good historical fiction, fantasy not set in faux medieval England, etc., Bakker comes out at the top. Lots of folks mention it as a favourite, and one can easily read Bakker just as an the epic fantasy.

Yeah, but this board is fucked up :P (in the nicest possible way) Or, more seriously, Bakker's popularity on this board is both illusory - it's generally the same dozen or two people talking about the books - and also unusual. On most other message boards people wouldn't have the slightest clue who he is, and on a few others where he is better-known, people will generally discuss him for a bit when a new book comes out and then forget about him until the next one comes out.

You'd hope that the frequency of threads about him here would lead more people to reading him, but someone clicking on the thread and being confronted by pages of dense discussion on metaphysical aspects of the world, black semen and Biblical allusions might be discouraged from starting them.

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........

You'd hope that the frequency of threads about him here would lead more people to reading him, but someone clicking on the thread and being confronted by pages of dense discussion on metaphysical aspects of the world, black semen and Biblical allusions might be discouraged from starting them.

why? :dunce:

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My first time through the books I certainly didn't read them with any sort of metaphysical revelations.

The books work on a surface level; lots of epic moments, engaging intrigue and mysteries, etc. Certainly the more graphic representations of sexual matters is a bit of a stumbling block and the books bring new meaning to "grim and gritty fantasy." Hell, Abercrombie is full of rainbows and marshmallows by comparison. But I really don't think there's anything there on a first read that is a particularly difficult read.

Now... if you want to get every last ounce of depth from it; yes, its very layered. I never caught most of it until reading these threads and I'm definitely not the best at making unique revelations; its why my contributions consist primarily of yelling "The slog of slogs!" I guess that makes me the Sarl of the boards for good or ill. :)

Honestly though, I think anyone who is not overtly offended by the sexuality would enjoy the books if they were to read them. The availability and the publicity are still the primary problems in my mind. I have yet to see Bakker at my local Barnes and Noble, but there are two shelves of Goodkind and a shelf of Malazan. :dunno: I put that on the publisher.

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Honestly though, I think anyone who is not overtly offended by the sexuality would enjoy the books if they were to read them. The availability and the publicity are still the primary problems in my mind. I have yet to see Bakker at my local Barnes and Noble, but there are two shelves of Goodkind and a shelf of Malazan. :dunno: I put that on the publisher.

Absolutely. Overlook are a great little company, but they don't have the clout to do this series justice. Bakker needs to see about extricating himself from them and doing some sort of deal with Orbit in the USA. Get the books on the shelves, ask GRRM for a cover quote to put next to the Erikson one, get the next book done and get some more coverage. The legal issues involved with Overlook may be more of a stumbling block, but as a smaller company they should also be more flexible, and some deal can be done to their advantage (maybe they can continue to publish the hardcovers and tradebacks but Orbit get the mass-markets?).

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I don’t agree about niche. Every time this board has threads about which books have the best prose, the best battles, the most memorable acts of magic, the best character, good historical fiction, fantasy not set in faux medieval England, etc., Bakker comes out at the top. Lots of folks mention it as a favourite, and one can easily read Bakker just as an the epic fantasy.

Our little thread here is niche. Sure. (A bit like discussing the names of Lord Spicer Sunglass’s ships, of the religion of faceless men, or how Howland Reed warged into Ned Stark when he killed Arthur Dayne. We’ve all been there.)

My first time through the books I certainly didn't read them with any sort of metaphysical revelations.

The books work on a surface level; lots of epic moments, engaging intrigue and mysteries, etc. Certainly the more graphic representations of sexual matters is a bit of a stumbling block and the books bring new meaning to "grim and gritty fantasy." Hell, Abercrombie is full of rainbows and marshmallows by comparison. But I really don't think there's anything there on a first read that is a particularly difficult read.

Now... if you want to get every last ounce of depth from it; yes, its very layered. I never caught most of it until reading these threads and I'm definitely not the best at making unique revelations; its why my contributions consist primarily of yelling "The slog of slogs!" I guess that makes me the Sarl of the boards for good or ill. :)

Honestly though, I think anyone who is not overtly offended by the sexuality would enjoy the books if they were to read them. The availability and the publicity are still the primary problems in my mind. I have yet to see Bakker at my local Barnes and Noble, but there are two shelves of Goodkind and a shelf of Malazan. :dunno: I put that on the publisher.

I agree the books are not that niche, I enjoyed them at the level you are describing. I also enjoy authors who are pretty thematically dense and complex (Neil Stephenson is one of my favorites). Now it has been while since I read Bakker and I did enjoy it, but I feel like these threads are speculating beyond anything I ever comprehended in the source material. Almost like your knowledge of Bakker outside of the text allows you to speculate on his implications inside of it. I never really picked up on any of the metaphysics, now I have no experience with subject, but I would usually at least be aware of some themes that may be beyond my appreciation.

Then I read these threads, and frankly they are awesome, but I seriously wonder if there are a bunch of Bakker's letters or correspondence on the subject that I never read. Kind of the same thing you get with Tolkien people quoting his correspondence like source material.

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Unfortunately, for all that he talks about genre being where it's at for reaching people, he really does not participate in the genre culture at all. No cons for him, no anthologies, no blogging, he really makes no effort to participate in our communities, almost as though he holds himself above it all and deigns to write for us for our own good.

Given how Bakker managed to drive off some potential new readers when he got involved in the discussions here with his sockpuppet or when he made an ass of himself in the comment sections of quite a few SF blogs. it's probably better for his sales if he stays away.

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Bakker's lengthy ruminations on subjects on his blog or in interviews and other discussions probably has a lot to do with. He also deals with some issues much more directly in his other novels, like Neuropath, the main matter of which - the nature of consciousness - seems to have become his main area of interest since he wrote that novel.

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What distinguishes Erikson from Bakker, although I think the latter is a much better writer, is that his books have many more female readers in general, and as a percentage of those who read his books (for obvious and inherent reasons). That being the case, I remain puzzled why the two continue to be compared. Erikson might write much denser books, in so far as the type of commitment that needs to be made to read them, but then again, he also writes books that at least have the potential to be read by women, so it is by no means surprising that he sells many more books than Bakker. This idea that the deviation between their sales figures is all on account of marketing is simply a red herring.

Also, I did not intend "niche" to be disparaging term, as I include myself to be within the niche I was talking about, but the fact is, Bakker's books are by definition a niche product.

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I'm not convinced that Bakker > Erickson, to be honest. I think Bakker manages better prose overall but Erickson does more in terms of world building and, well, original plot that isn't LotR+Dune+Crusades.

I guess with Bakker it's not that his work is disliked, it's just that the varied alternatives seem more appealing to fantasy fans. If I'd not heard praise from authors on Dead Cities I probably would not have picked up Darkness That Comes Before on the strength of the book jacket summary.

eta: In fact I recall seeing it at bookstores and just admiring the cover without wondering much about the contents.

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I actually think Bakker is much better than Erikson but even I'm not surprised that the latter sales so many more books. I also think Bakker is improving. I like the second trilogy a lot more than the first, especially with the author finally managing to write a couple of decent female characters (notwithstanding the train wreck that Esmenet continues to be). But picking up new readers at this point is a difficult proposition.

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I guess to me I can see why people prefer Erickson over Bakker, though I gave up on Malazan a long time ago.

I think it comes down to what you want more of. Keeping track of all the balls Erickson has in the air tires me out. I think I'd have to take a week off from doing anything else and just read all ten novels back to back.

With Bakker the metaphysical questions intrigue me more. As someone who studied/worked in theology I love the questions about God vs gods, miracles and salvation history, etc. Probably why I much prefer the second trilogy to the first.

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I agree the books are not that niche, I enjoyed them at the level you are describing. I also enjoy authors who are pretty thematically dense and complex (Neil Stephenson is one of my favorites). Now it has been while since I read Bakker and I did enjoy it, but I feel like these threads are speculating beyond anything I ever comprehended in the source material. Almost like your knowledge of Bakker outside of the text allows you to speculate on his implications inside of it. I never really picked up on any of the metaphysics, now I have no experience with subject, but I would usually at least be aware of some themes that may be beyond my appreciation.

Then I read these threads, and frankly they are awesome, but I seriously wonder if there are a bunch of Bakker's letters or correspondence on the subject that I never read. Kind of the same thing you get with Tolkien people quoting his correspondence like source material.

I guess my first question is, did you read the first trilogy, or did you read all 5 books? A lot of stuff from White Luck Warrior has relevance to what is being discussed now.

Then there are also the Atrocity Tales, two short stories published on his site, which has certainly informed discussion and lead to some interesting speculation that might well be correct ( though there is more than 1 theory on almost any given subject on this series).

You can read them here if you are interested.

http://rsbakker.wordpress.com/stories/

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It's unclear if the baby dies immediately, so all fertilized eggs are dead, or if the baby dies at childbirth but gestates normally.

I'm guessing it's at whatever point the brain starts determining whether you're alive or dead?

Brain's don't matter in Earwa, thought occurs in the soul, not the brain. That's why we have substitutions like "Soul's Eye" instead of "Mind's Eye."

So the No God caused still births because babies were no longer being ensouled, thus they had no mind.

The No Birth cut things off at the moment of ensoulment. When the moment of ensoulment is, is not something anyone can agree on here on Earth, so I doubt we know when that happens in Earwa.

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