R+L=J v 61

[Stanerys Snow]

The final twist is sometimes unpredictable.

I concur, but the final twist does not need to go against R+L=J. The final twist can be what R+L=J means for the story.

And though there is evidence for R+L= J, it's not a smooth theory either. Ignoring the inconsistencies is not making the argument stronger.

Ignoring inconsistencies is quite different from ignoring weak alternative theories.

There are plenty of things we don't know, so at this point, it is still possible that the theory proves untrue. I don't believe so myself, but for all we know, all these subtle clues generations of forum dwellers have painstakingly put together and interpreted to fit R+L=J, might at the end of the day - with more pieces of the puzzle available - fit another theory altogether.

Not one that had been presented here, which was my point.

Doesn't mean that GRRM has to throw it all and that the foreshadowing and hints are for nothing. Just that these same hints could possibly, hint towards something we have not yet considered.

These hints that are already well-hidden within the story? These hints that lead to other hints and also provide explanations to other issues within the story? I don't see it happening. GRRM himself is secretive when it comes to the subject of Jon's parentage. Why would he be secretive if the answer had already been laid out in the story? Why would he be so secretive if it's hinting towards something else that hasn't been considered?

If every incomplete puzzle could be solved with sense, reason, logic why is history re-written generation after generation? There's not always new findings, but key elements are often re-interpreted along the changing trends of social sciences. Granted, putting clues together from a fantasy book, is a different matter altogether than trying to understand the relationship between Henry the Lion and Frederick Barbarossa or deconstructing the conflicts between House Welf and Staufer...but, all the same, clues can be misleading.

As you stated yourself, putting the clues together in the books is not as complicated as interpreting history.

That said, I believe R+L=J, though I do not think it wrong to question it.

It's wrong to laugh at its plausibility simply because it's not explicitly stated, and it's wrong to combat it with theories not as well supported in the text.

[Jon Icefyre]

I concur, but the final twist does not need to go against R+L=J. The final twist can be what R+L=J means for the story.

Ignoring inconsistencies is quite different from ignoring weak alternative theories.

Not one that had been presented here, which was my point.

These hints that are already well-hidden within the story? These hints that lead to other hints and also provide explanations to other issues within the story? I don't see it happening. GRRM himself is secretive when it comes to the subject of Jon's parentage. Why would he be secretive if the answer had already been laid out in the story? Why would he be so secretive if it's hinting towards something else that hasn't been considered?

As you stated yourself, putting the clues together in the books is not as complicated as interpreting history.

It's wrong to laugh at its plausibility simply because it's not explicitly stated, and it's wrong to combat it with theories not as well supported in the text.

Boom, there it is....... :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Jon Icefyre]

I was not saying that Jon couldn't be R+L, my point was that taking it for granted might cloud your judgement and obscure heavy hints that there was something else entirely going on. R+L brought about the end of the Targaryen rule (at least for the moment). I'm suspicious on account of that fact alone, because Rhaegar wasn't portrayed as stupid. I smell an intrigue at the start of the whole thing.

Again you're vastly over valuing the importance of these supposed R+L=J detracting hints, consistences, and inconsistencies for the purpose of using them to support your weak alternative theories. You're confusing "heavy hints" for red herrings, and even if some of them aren't red herrings, it's far more likely that they are in some way connected to R+L=J than another alternative theory. R+L=J supporters aren't obscuring anything, you don't seem to understand that there's a huge difference between just simply obscuring hints in general, and only obscuring them in the context of them being used to support weak alternative theories which is what the vast majority of R+L=J detractors continuously try to do. So R+L=J supporters obscure those hints only when they are being used in that specific context by R+L=J detractors, we're not obscuring the hints in general......

[Zaphodess]

Just a casual reminder:

"He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son, the red ruin of his skull"

Fourteen years later, Ned believes that Aegon is dead, so, IF there is any truth to Aegon-is-alive, Ned was never privy to it.

I stand corrected, so my crackpot theory may rest in peace. :dunno:

Doesn't mean the misfits died with it. The biggest one, imho, is that Lyanna's alleged abduction and rape was an important piece in a struggle for the IT. Rhaegar would have to be mind-numbingly stupid to do anything that gave weight to the accusations. And him playing honeymoon for almost a year while the Realm was on fire is somewhat hard to accept too. Rhaegar was fighting on several fronts: against his father, against the rebels, against ?. If he was worth anything, he worked hard to avert the catastrophe.

I really don't rule out that Jon is Lyanna's son after all, but I do believe there's a lot more to the story than some fairy tale love affair gone tragically wrong.

[FrozenFire3]

With all due respect, while I agree there is a political angle going on, one of the main factors of Martins work is the influence of Faulkner as he has stated himself.

Faulkner's tenant of "the human heart in conflict with itself," has everything to do with the choices the characters make, so I think love had a lot to do with events, and the fact that R&L never had a chance is part of the tragedy.

This. This. This. The words 'cliché' and 'sappy' are as superficial as overused. According to this buffling criterion, some of the most sublime literary productions - from Greek Tragedy to Shakespeare - are 'sappy' :stunned:

Here, have some really 'sappy' passage:

"Even those who lack a man's parts may still have a man's heart," said Grey Worm. "This one has been told that your servant Stalwart Shield sometimes gave coin to the women of the brothels, to lay with him and hold him."

GRRM would never ever writ... oh!

[Stanerys Snow]

Boom, there it is....... :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

:cheers:

but I do believe there's a lot more to the story than some fairy tale love affair gone tragically wrong.

Many R+L=J supporters believe that as well.

[Zaphodess]

Again you're vastly over valuing the importance these supposed R+L=J detracting hints, consistences, and inconsistencies in order to further support weak alternative theories. You're confusing "heavy hints" for red herrings, and even if some of them aren't red herrings, it's far more likely that they are in some way connected to R+L=J than another alternative theory. R+L=J supporters aren't obscuring anything, you don't seem to understand that there's a huge difference between just simply obscuring hints in general, and only obscuring them in the context of them being used to support weak alternative theories which is what vast the majority of R+L=J detractors continuously try to do. So R+L=J supporters obscure those hints only when they are being used in that specific context by R+L=J detractors......

You're kind of proving my point. Why am I a "detractor" if I suggest a possible alternative? Are we debating theories or religion?

[Zaphodess]

This. This. This. The words 'cliché' and 'sappy' are as superficial as overused. According to this buffling criterion, some of the most sublime literary productions - from Greek Tragedy to Shakespeare - are 'sappy' :stunned:

Here, have some really 'sappy' passage:

GRRM would never ever writ... oh!

lol. Thank you for the flowers. May I point out that the imo sappy stuff isn't in the text yet. :devil:

[FrozenFire3]

Many R+L=J supporters believe that as well.

Absolutely. The infamous 4 Ps of the R+L affair: Prophecy, Politcs, Power, Passion.

[Ygrain]

I stand corrected, so my crackpot theory may rest in peace. :dunno:

Doesn't mean the misfits died with it. The biggest one, imho, is that Lyanna's alleged abduction and rape was an important piece in a struggle for the IT. Rhaegar would have to be mind-numbingly stupid to do anything that gave weight to the accusations. And him playing honeymoon for almost a year while the Realm was on fire is somewhat hard to accept too. Rhaegar was fighting on several fronts: against his father, against the rebels, against ?. If he was worth anything, he worked hard to avert the catastrophe.

I really don't rule out that Jon is Lyanna's son after all, but I do believe there's a lot more to the story than some fairy tale love affair gone tragically wrong.

I'll take the opportunity to point out something that often gets overlooked:

- Lyanna is supposedly abducted. Brandon throws a hissy fit but no banners are called.

- Brandon is imprisoned. Rickard answers Aerys's summons but no banners are called.

- Brandon and Rickard are put to death. No banners are called (though we do not know how much time elapsed before the next point)

- Aerys demands the heads of Ned and Robert and only now banners are called, by Jon Arryn refusing the order.

Another point: it is unknown what Rhaegar was doing meanwhile (though it is reasonable to guess that some sex was involved) and, especially, how fast he was receiving news.

[Stanerys Snow]

You're kind of proving my point. Why am I a "detractor" if I suggest a possible alternative? Are we debating theories or religion?

Coming into a thread dedicated to a specific theory and discrediting it, by providing alternative theories that are not as well supported, makes you a detractor. Any alternative theory discredits a portion of R+L=J, so the regulars in this thread will expect the alternative theory to fully explain whatever part of R+L=J you are discrediting with the alternative theory. And that's pretty reasonable...

Absolutely. The infamous 4 Ps of the R+L affair: Prophecy, Politcs, Power, Passion.

:cheers:

[Jon Icefyre]

You're kind of proving my point. Why am I a "detractor" if I suggest a possible alternative? Are we debating theories or religion?

Apple Martini, on 28 August 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

I seem to remember Ygrain sharing a quote about how not all opinions are created equal. Which is true. R+L=J and R+L=/=J are both technically opinions at this point. But one is empirically of higher value than the other.

[Dragonfish]

I really don't rule out that Jon is Lyanna's son after all, but I do believe there's a lot more to the story than some fairy tale love affair gone tragically wrong.

"Fairy tale gone wrong"* characterizes much of George's work, both in ASoIaF and his other stories.

*Or as he put it once, "reality's search and destroy mission for love."

[Zaphodess]

I'll take the opportunity to point out something that often gets overlooked:

- Lyanna is supposedly abducted. Brandon throws a hissy fit but no banners are called.

- Brandon is imprisoned. Rickard answers Aerys's summons but no banners are called.

- Brandon and Rickard are put to death. No banners are called (though we do not know how much time elapsed before the next point)

- Aerys demands the heads of Ned and Robert and only now banners are called, by Jon Arryn refusing the order.

Another point: it is unknown what Rhaegar was doing meanwhile (though it is reasonable to guess that some sex was involved) and, especially, how fast he was receiving news.

There's a third party involved, represented by Varys, who push things in Westeros towards catastrophe for its own sake. The point is to weaken the 7K.

[FrozenFire3]

"Fairy tale gone wrong" characterizes much of George's work, both in ASoIaF and his other stories. Or as he put it once, "reality's search and destroy mission for love."

Which is also one of the central themes of Classical tales and literature. The line between evil and good is blurred, fate has a twisted and stubborn way to come true (ananke), arrogance get punished (hubris), and love is often destructive (eros and thanatos). No wonder Martin cites Homer and the Iliad as key inspiration for AsoIaF...

[Alia of the knife]

This. This. This. The words 'cliché' and 'sappy' are as superficial as overused. According to this buffling criterion, some of the most sublime literary productions - from Greek Tragedy to Shakespeare - are 'sappy' :stunned:

Here, have some really 'sappy' passage:

"Even those who lack a man's parts may still have a man's heart," said Grey Worm. "This one has been told that your servant Stalwart Shield sometimes gave coin to the women of the brothels, to lay with him and hold him."

GRRM would never ever writ... oh!

That, OMG, THAT passage moved me to tears, and it actually takes a lot to make me cry.

And that passage highlights the difference between the need for sex, and perhaps the most important need for human intimacy.

That scene may never make HBO, but it should just for the rarity of true eroticism.

Such emotional discernment is rare in writers today, and what Martin will do with a "bittersweet" ending makes me almost need to emotionally prepare for it when the time comes.

Sappy stuff indeed........

[J. Stargaryen]

A while back I speculated that GRRM based the name Rhaegar on his own father's name, Raymond. Actually, that it might be that he got Rhaegar (Ray-gar) from Raymond Martin. And maybe even Waymar, as in Royce. Anyhow, I was doing a little reading and came across something funny. Aside from being known as Khal Raggat, the Cart King, Viserys also was the known as Khal Rhae Mhar, the Sorefoot King.

AGoT, Daenerys IV:

Dany followed on her silver, escorted by Ser Jorah Mormont and her brother Viserys, mounted once more. After the day in the grass when she had left him to walk back to the khalasar, the Dothraki had laughingly called him Khal Rhae Mhar, the Sorefoot King.

Of course when you take the ASoIaF-ness out of "Rhae Mhar" it probably looks like "Ray Mar." I wonder if GRRM doesn't remember his dad, a longshoreman, complaining of sore feet on occasion. :)

[Alia of the knife]

A while back I speculated that GRRM based the name Rhaegar on his own father's name, Raymond. Actually, that it might be that he got Rhaegar (Ray-gar) from Raymond Martin. And maybe even Waymar, as in Royce. Anyhow, I was doing a little reading and came across something funny. Aside from being known as Khal Raggat, the Cart King, Viserys also was the known as Khal Rhae Mhar, the Sorefoot King.

AGoT, Daenerys IV:

Of course when you take the ASoIaF-ness out of "Rhae Mhar" it probably looks like "Ray Mar." I wonder if GRRM doesn't remember his dad, a longshoreman, complaining of sore feet on occasion. :)

And see, I love catches like that.

They say that the best writers begin with what they know.

We see him do something similar with Wun Wun, taking that symbology with from his favorite football team, (#11 NY Giants). I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't have a "Walder Frey" for a teacher, or a "Tywin Lannister" as that neighbor whose house you peddled by on your bike just a little bit faster, or whose yard you stayed out of.

Rhaegar is better than "Rongar," :), BUT, my maiden name was McDaniel, supposedly meaning Son of Domnall, "World Mighty." (I'm betting he was just large).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm not even touching the naysaying because frankly at this point it seems like a giant waste of time. I think I have argued virtually every angle, knocked down virtually every limp counter argument and answered just about every question. At this point, if you don't believe it, you don't, which is your problem. Just don't act too shocked when all of this ends up being true.

Anyway ...

I just wanted to duck in and say that Lem = Richard might be my new favorite crackpot. I remember a few months ago looking up Rhaegar's squires. Myles is confirmed dead but not Richard, and I thought that was odd ...

[Foothill]

A while back I speculated that GRRM based the name Rhaegar on his own father's name, Raymond. Actually, that it might be that he got Rhaegar (Ray-gar) from Raymond Martin. And maybe even Waymar, as in Royce. Anyhow, I was doing a little reading and came across something funny. Aside from being known as Khal Raggat, the Cart King, Viserys also was the known as Khal Rhae Mhar, the Sorefoot King.

I also had the same idea with Jon. It would seem fitting he names the "true heir" after the king of fantasy: JRR Tolkein.