R+L=J v 61

[Ghost's Shadow]

Shoulda killed Varys. And Littlefinger.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Back with one final point on the issue of what Lyanna could have or should known or done. If you begin from the position that Lyanna was the one who was first in imminent danger from Aerys, that her "abduction" was a rescue and that she was hidden away-- ultimately at the ToJ-- for her own safety, things begin to look very different. What could she have done when revealing her location would mean certain death to herself? Should she hold the lunatic actions of the father against the son who has saved her life and is now protecting her?

This is my theory, backed up by something as insignificant as a parallel to a topos as ancient as human storytelling, a scene as old as written history, a romance that reaches back centuries into the human psyche.

Possible? Definitely. Probable? Maybe. Definite? By no means. But illustrative of the fact that when we make assumptions about what must have happened, we miss out on all the beautiful and tragic possibilities of the story and its characters.

[Roadside Rose]

When the producers of the show (GoT) met GRRM initially to discuss about the series, they asked him the question 'Who are Jon Snow's parents?' And supposedly, they got it right the first time. Rhaegar & Lyanna being the parents is the most popular fan theory. For D&D to get it correct the first time, I'm sure they must have said R+L=J.

[Maxpey]

And being "smacked around" is not always a bad thing. :leer:

(Just kidding). :P

Also Jon's mother is Selyse- that is who Jon gets his facial hair from, (she managed to slip away from Stannis's jaw-clenching and teeth-grinding one night).

:wideeyed:

Seriously though, I agree, it should be about the fun and joy of discussing great works, even one still in progress. :bowdown:

Getting smacked around can be insightful . . . especially if you deserve it. ;)

[Maxpey]

1. You referred to yourself as a lawyer before I referred to my own background. I was explaining where I was coming from, not trying to make an argument from authority.

2. Look, you will be getting into contradictions if you agree with what I said but disagree with Yeade. The main point we are making is the same.

3. And yes, R+L=J deniers have so far been as much literary crackpots as Intelligent Design proponents are scientific crackpots. Noone is complaining about them having their opinions; but people will get exhausted at rehashing the same argument with the same people, when the textual evidence of their case has been found lacking multiple times before, while their counterevidence didn't stand the test to topple R+L=J. We have invited fair hearings of other hypotheses in the past and will do so in the future, but people shouldn't be butthurt when their conjectures are rejected on grounds of making too many assumptions unsupported by the text or eliminating the irony and foreshadowing. That may come across as arrogant to you, but usually that arrogance is directed at people who have proven to be crackpots in the past, and who are rehashing the same unsupported argument again.

To think that I was once an R + L = J denier. Let's just say I am glad to have seen the light (however grudgingly) because I would hate to be compared to an Intelligent Design nutjob . . . I mean, Intelligent Design proponent.

[The guy from the Vale]

To think that I was once an R + L = J denier. Let's just say I am glad to have seen the light (however grudgingly) because I would hate to be compared to an Intelligent Design nutjob . . . I mean, Intelligent Design proponent.

:lol:

Actually, I have a lot of respect for your method. You had your hypothesis and liked it, and when challenged tried to find evidence for it and evidence against R+L=J, only to find out that the evidence for R+L=J was stronger. It takes a lot of integrity to argue a case as intensely as you did to ultimately take a step back and admit that the "other side" has the better arguments overall. I wouldn't call that crackpottish behaviour at all.

[Alia of the knife]

Getting smacked around can be insightful . . . especially if you deserve it. ;)

Speaking of getting smacked around, we better hope the Giants win today against the Broncos, or another Stark will die.

[Maxpey]

Speaking of getting smacked around, we better hope the Giants win today against the Broncos, or another Stark will die.

:laugh: I am in a conundrum about that. My favorite athlete of all time is Peyton Manning (I even named my son after him). But my favorite NFL team is the Giants. As much as I love Peyton, the Giants need the win more.

ETA: My member name, Maxpey, is a combination of the name of my cat, Max, and my son, Peyton.

[Ygrain]

Or simply seek solace in each other arms... I chanced upon people on these boards who even blame Rhaegar for Aerys' abuses following the defiance of Duskendale :blink: As if he could be held responsible for any of his mad father's crimes when it was vox populi - both in Westeros and Essos - that Rhaegar's relationship with Aerys was quite strained.

Aye, Rhaegar The Eeeevil Prince, The Strangler of Puppies and Drowner of Kittens.

I seem to recall that in the Charlton Heston El Cid, he killed Ximena's father in a duel but she eventually forgave him, or that li'le complication in West Side Story, you know, "a boy like that who'd kill your brother" - I somehow missed the controversy over Ximena or Maria continuing the relationship, not to mention Juliet.

[Alia of the knife]

Aye, Rhaegar The Eeeevil Prince, The Strangler of Puppies and Drowner of Kittens.

I seem to recall that in the Charlton Heston El Cid, he killed Ximena's father in a duel but she eventually forgave him, or that li'le complication in West Side Story, you know, "a boy like that who'd kill your brother" - I somehow missed the controversy over Ximena or Maria continuing the relationship, not to mention Juliet.

"El Cid," along with "Romeo and Juliet" IS one of my favorite all time movies :bowdown: :bowdown: and a lot how I picture Dorne.

:laugh: I am in a conundrum about that. My favorite athlete of all time is Peyton Manning (I even named my son after him). But my favorite NFL team is the Giants. As much as I love Peyton, the Giants need the win more.

ETA: My member name, Maxpey, is a combination of the name of my cat, Max, and my son, Peyton.

Awwweee, Well of course my cat was named Duncan for "Duncan Idaho," from "Dune," but at twenty-five pounds, (he's a Maine Coon), he's more like the late Chris Farley. :blush:

When he walks into the room, the floorboards creak.

My co-worker and her husband named their son for Peyton as well, so he has many to honor since he is "the quarterback for the ages." <_<

Todays game is not hard for me since the Broncos handed the Ravens their behinds in the season opener, so I'm going for the Giants.

If you go to the entertainment section of this board, they will be discussing the games today, which is pretty funny at times.

[Ygrain]

Actually, I have a lot of respect for your method. You had your hypothesis and liked it, and when challenged tried to find evidence for it and evidence against R+L=J, only to find out that the evidence for R+L=J was stronger. It takes a lot of integrity to argue a case as intensely as you did to ultimately take a step back and admit that the "other side" has the better arguments overall. I wouldn't call that crackpottish behaviour at all.

:agree:

You were one of the few people able to step back and see the evidence for what it is, instead of closing your eyes and stuffing fingers in your ears when presented with something that you couldn't counter. The longer I am at the forums, the more admirable I find this.

"El Cid," along with "Romeo and Juliet" IS one of my favorite all time movies :bowdown: :bowdown: and a lot how I picture Dorne.

Awwweee, Well of course my cat was named Duncan for "Duncan Idaho," from "Dune," but at twenty-five pounds, (he's a Maine Coon), he's more like the late Chris Farley. :blush:

When he walks into the room, the floorboards creak.

My co-worker and her husband named their son for Peyton as well, so he has many to honor since he is "the quarterback for the ages." <_<

Todays game is not hard for me since the Broncos handed the Ravens their behinds in the season opener, so I'm going for the Giants.

If you go to the entertainment section of this board, they will be discussing the games today, which is pretty funny at times.

Oh, Duncan Idaho... the film didn't do much justice to him (and this was one of the reasons I disliked it :D)

The first and only time I watched El Cid was in my teens, when the Iron Curtain broke, and I was totally smitten by it. I haven't dared to watch it since, so that I didn't have to subject it to more critical evaluation.

[Alia of the knife]

:agree:

You were one of the few people able to step back and see the evidence for what it is, instead of closing your eyes and stuffing fingers in your ears when presented with something that you couldn't counter. The longer I am at the forums, the more admirable I find this.

Oh, Duncan Idaho... the film didn't do much justice to him (and this was one of the reasons I disliked it :D)

The first and only time I watched El Cid was in my teens, when the Iron Curtain broke, and I was totally smitten by it. I haven't dared to watch it since, so that I didn't have to subject it to more critical evaluation.

I can see I'm going to have to watch it again now. The pageantry and beauty of the story is enough to impact even seeing it only once.

I grew up with many of these movies on Saturday afternoons in the Summer, so they bring many great memories :)

As far as "Dune," they have yet to get that film right. :bang:, which is why GOT, comparable to the vast details and complexities probably did the right thing in becoming a series.

If they tried to make it a film, again, they would likely have to approach it the way LOTR was done.

As for Duncan Idaho, my cat didn't live up to his name either. :blushing:

http://web.mail.comc...d=391361&part=2

He's the large one at the foot of the bed, and I think they're more like Robert and Cersie :fencing:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

My co-worker and her husband named their son for Peyton as well, so he has many to honor since he is "the quarterback for the ages." <_<

Todays game is not hard for me since the Broncos handed the Ravens their behinds in the season opener, so I'm going for the Giants.

If you go to the entertainment section of this board, they will be discussing the games today, which is pretty funny at times.

Ooh... We definitely shouldn't talk football here! Most of you know approximately where I'm from, so you can guess who my favorite quarterback is, and what team I root for (hint- they've already won their game this week ;))

I often worry that if I were ever to meet GRRM, our budding friendship (because of course we'd be buds, right? :lol:) would founder on the rocks of our football allegiances. :wacko:

[Ygrain]

http://web.mail.comc...d=391361&part=2

He's the large one at the foot of the bed, and I think they're more like Robert and Cersie :fencing:

The link appears to be broken :-(

[finger]

:agree:

You were one of the few people able to step back and see the evidence for what it is, instead of closing your eyes and stuffing fingers in your ears when presented with something that you couldn't counter. The longer I am at the forums, the more admirable I find this.

Oh, Duncan Idaho... the film didn't do much justice to him (and this was one of the reasons I disliked it :D)

The first and only time I watched El Cid was in my teens, when the Iron Curtain broke, and I was totally smitten by it. I haven't dared to watch it since, so that I didn't have to subject it to more critical evaluation.

I strongly disapprove stuffing fingers in anyone's ears :ack:

[Alia of the knife]

Ooh... We definitely shouldn't talk football here! Most of you know approximately where I'm from, so you can guess who my favorite quarterback is, and what team I root for (hint- they've already won their game this week ;))

I often worry that if I were ever to meet GRRM, our budding friendship (because of course we'd be buds, right? :lol:) would founder on the rocks of our football allegiances. :wacko:

Doh!!! :wideeyed:

I don't know how I could forget that!

And yes, GRRM takes his game very seriously, though I might fear the same thing about a friendship as well :laugh:

When the Ravens won last year, Baltimore practically shut down, and you couldn't go anywhere without seeing their mascots, "Edgar," "Allen," and "Poe."

[shonaxxx]

but but

jon is dead

[Alia of the knife]

The link appears to be broken :-(

Oh no, when I clicked on it, it seemed to appear, but needless to say, Duncans girth is quite majestic and he sleeps sixteen hours a day, so he definitely doesn't live up to his namesake. :blushing:

But, as to the topic, you are right and there were very strained relations between Aerys and Rhaegar, and Martin does intend to address those tensions. Now, what I am intrigued by are the relations between Rhaegar and his mother given what Jorah says about them both being good.

I'm wondering if they weren't each others best allies, hence Varys whisperings?

but but

jon is dead

"So, you think Jon is dead do you?," - Martin

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Doh!!! :wideeyed:

I don't know how I could forget that!

And yes, GRRM takes his game very seriously, though I might fear the same thing about a friendship as well :laugh:

When the Ravens won last year, Baltimore practically shut down, and you couldn't go anywhere without seeing their mascots, "Edgar," "Allen," and "Poe."

My father in law is from Baltimore, so we have a soft spot for the Ravens here (plus we're all big fans of Poe ;))

Unless they're playing the Pats, in which case there is no mercy :devil:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

but but

jon is dead

Oh my sweet summer child...