R+L=J v 61

[dotheknifefight]

omg i can't believe i never figured that out before, ser creighton.

you've convinced me.

mind=blown.

[Foothill]

Oh hell just because at some points I need to play devils advocate, I going to have to do it now.

1. Lyanna is associated with Blue roses and blood. Stannis is more closely associated with Blue roses and blood as he has blue eyes like a blue rose and everyone loves him. Plus he easily covers the blood quota.

2. Ned is not protective of Jon, Jon is just a reminder of his greatest conquest. Secretly Ned was the greatest influence on Roberts perving ways. Robert was an angle before Easy Eddie got his claws into him.

3. Oh Ned has tons of bastards, The fishermans daughter, Wylla, probably one by Ashara, and I am guessing Tyrion, and Dany. They both seem to have the wolfs blood in them.

4. We Know they had sex? Come on, man all the hints are there about Rhaegar and Jon Con. Lyanna was probably just doing the rebelious thing and partying it up at the tower of joy, did a little to much blue crystal, cause she loves blue and "gack." Just like Jane.

5. Lyanna was dying around blood and flowers? So she found some blood and flowers to die around? More likely, it was a pool of her own vomit and fecal matter. What? That's what happens when you die. Plus Bed of blood, really have you ever seen a bed made of blood, only in horror movies what kind of tower was this.

6. Honestly i didn't really get what you were talking about with the KG here, so I am going to skip and don;t get me started on 3's ok? I need a day off from 3.

7. Yes he promised her lots of things. Take her home, bring her flowers, don't tell Benjen about the Meth, kepp the toilet seat down, mow the grass, blah, blah, blah. I also object to you calling Jon a Bastard, at the very least he is adopted. How would you like it if someone kept callign you bastard? Hmmmm, yeah didn't think so.

8. Only one person survived the tower of Joy? Well then that must be Ned, but he is dead now so no proof exists about Jon's parantage other than the fact that I have conclusivly proven Ned liked to party, Robert used to be an angel, Rhaegar liked boys and Lyanna was into Meth. What do you think the whole wolfs blood thing is? It's withdrawl man, withdrawl.

Everyone knows Jon doesn't have a father he was immaculately concieved by the faith of the 7, the fire god dude, and some 3 headed diety. He was brought forth from the bowls of hell through sacrifice by the 3 apostles of Rhaegar. The Lord of darkness the Bat, The Lord of false light Arthur Dayne, sword of the Morning, more like the morning star, hello Lucifer, and the sacred golden bull ummm Apis anyone the intermidary of Atum the Twilight God. And any god of that series is bound to be evil.

I mean come on Snow = order, burning hand = chaos. It's anarchy, end of days, end of days. The dead are walking, he has his own damn hell hound with burning red eyes. He has a damn bird on his shoulder screaming out Death codes. You notice how Jon is never around when the Others attack? Sure he came across a stupid Wight and and buned him for fun, but the Others always show up when Jon is away.

Didn't anyone see the Omen, Jon is going to be King hello Dameon became president and everyone kept dying around him. Another word for Snow in the north is death. Grey eyes/ Who the hell has grey eyes?Jon Dameon Snow that's who.

Oh fuck that was good lol. You should write for 2 and a Half Men. The show would be better for it.

[Ser Creighton]

omg i can't believe i never figured that out before, ser creighton.

you've convinced me.

mind=blown.

It's the Night's watch man, the Night's watch. The are waiting for the long night. The black brothers, listen to there words, no children, they stop the creation of life. He takes the form of a blood thirsty beast. It's a cult and Jon is there death god.

[Old-Growth]

It's the Night's watch man, the Night's watch. The are waiting for the long night. The black brothers, listen to there words, no children, they stop the creation of life. He takes the form of a blood thirsty beast. It's a cult and Jon is there death god.

Ah, the Ides of Marsh explained. Now I understand. :)

[Twinslayer]

KL, certainly, Starfall, perhaps depending on who and when might have sent them the news. The thing is: when Rhaegar's friends at KL hear, do they know where to send a message? Do they possess the means to do so without revealing Rhaegar's hideout?

Besides, the news that Hoster Tully learned quickly is based on what? We know that he did learn, but to my best knowledge, no timeframe is mentioned-

You might be right about Hoster. It reads to me as though Hoster found out while Brandon was still alive, because it talks about Hoster's reaction to learning that Brandon had riddesn into KL and not about his reaction to learning that Brandon is dead, but that isn't explicit. I also think the news was widely known because Ned refers to "the hostages" all of whom were important Lords' sons. It's hard to use people as hostages if no-one knows you have them.

I do believe Rhaegar had sources in KL and Starfall at least who knew where to find him. I don't believe it would be that hard for one of them to ride to the TOJ without tipping off Aerys concerning Rhaegar's location.

Nope. Jon Arryn raises banners, there is fighting in the Vale, only then Ned and Robert leave and have to reach their respective domains. Time factor not stated but given the distances, weeks at best. Add to it the time for the news to travel, and there is definitely not a three months' gap, if any.

My understanding is that the war went on for a year. It began with the fighting in the Vale and ended with the Sack. So the ultimatum to Jon Arryn and the time he called his banners was a year before Jon's birth.

Brandon becoming a prisoner had to have happened some weeks or months before Jon Arryn called his banners, because Aerys had to send messages to the fathers of all the hostages and they all had to travel from wherever they were to KL to answer for their sons' crimes. I believe Rhaegar found out the same time as Rickard and the other fathers did, so he and Lyanna had more than three or four months to act before she thought she might be pregnant.

Remember, if Jon is younger than Robb, Lyanna did not conceive until after the Battle of the Bells, which was months after Brandon was taken prisoner. There was loads of time for Rhaegar and Lyanna to speak up if they wanted.

I'm also wondering - are you suggesting that Lyanna, despite being in love with Rhaegar and most possibly married to him, should have refrained from sleeping with him?

If it was consensual, I wasn't suggesting she should stop sleeping with Rhaegar because his father killed hers - at least, not until Rhaegar endorsed his father's actions by going to fight against Ned and Robert at the Trident.

Since you mentioned it, though, if it was consensual, what she did was wrong and incredibly selfish. Regardless of the circumstances, what he did was very wrong.

That's why the whole situation led to a war that toppled the Targ dynasty and led to the deaths of many of their family members.

And... she was supposed to do...? Would her intervention make Aerys withdraw the sentence over Ned and Robert and forgive them rebelling? And even if this could have been achieved, would the two agree to stop fightig?

If Rhaegar and Lyanna came out of hiding and called for a Great Council, Ned, Stannis, Hoster and Jon Arryn would have agreed. There was probably a compromise that could have worked, although it might have meant the ouster of the Targs or at least a quiet retirement for Aerys.

Rhaegar seemed to think he could call such a Council if he won at the Trident. I don't see why he had to try to kill half the lords in the realm -- including Lyanna's brother -- before calling his Council.

[Ygrain]

You might be right about Hoster. It reads to me as though Hoster found out while Brandon was still alive, because it talks about Hoster's reaction to learning that Brandon had riddesn into KL and not about his reaction to learning that Brandon is dead, but that isn't explicit. I also think the news was widely known because Ned refers to "the hostages" all of whom were important Lords' sons. It's hard to use people as hostages if no-one knows you have them.

You do realize that hostages have only value for the people who cherish them, e.g. their families. The rest of the world may be totally oblivious to the fact that they are being kept hostage

I do believe Rhaegar had sources in KL and Starfall at least who knew where to find him. I don't believe it would be that hard for one of them to ride to the TOJ without tipping off Aerys concerning Rhaegar's location.

We know from Barristan that Rhaegar had a small circle of followers. When Rhaegar does missing, I find it hard to believe that these are not the first people questioned and put under surveillance. Plus, they are all noblemen of some standing, so their absence definitely wouldn’t go unnoticed. Allies among servants have never hinted in any way, and once again, with Varys’ tight hold of the Keep’s secret, they would be known as Rhaegar’s men, and followed.

My understanding is that the war went on for a year. It began with the fighting in the Vale and ended with the Sack. So the ultimatum to Jon Arryn and the time he called his banners was a year before Jon's birth.

What did this refer to?

Brandon becoming a prisoner had to have happened some weeks or months before Jon Arryn called his banners, because Aerys had to send messages to the fathers of all the hostages and they all had to travel from wherever they were to KL to answer for their sons' crimes. I believe Rhaegar found out the same time as Rickard and the other fathers did, so he and Lyanna had more than three or four months to act before she thought she might be pregnant.

That’s really peculiar. You’re saying that the father’s of Brandon’s companions were all specifically notified about the situation, so Rhaegar, who was in no way related to them and whose location was unknown, absolutely had to find out at the same time? Those father were in their castles while Rhaegar was still travelling, without access to ravenmail. Also, do you believe that those Lords started to make public announcements of what happened, to raise public awareness? I find this hardly plausible – why should they do that? And even if they did, how quickly would the information spread to reach Rhaegar? – Let me tell you: very slowly.

Remember, if Jon is younger than Robb, Lyanna did not conceive until after the Battle of the Bells, which was months after Brandon was taken prisoner. There was loads of time for Rhaegar and Lyanna to speak up if they wanted.

See above.

Since you mentioned it, though, if it was consensual, what she did was wrong and incredibly selfish. Regardless of the circumstances, what he did was very wrong.

That's why the whole situation led to a war that toppled the Targ dynasty and led to the deaths of many of their family members.

The whole situation. If you take out Brandon and Aerys out of the equation, the “abduction” itself is in no way a certain premise for a war to start.

If Rhaegar and Lyanna came out of hiding and called for a Great Council, Ned, Stannis, Hoster and Jon Arryn would have agreed. There was probably a compromise that could have worked, although it might have meant the ouster of the Targs or at least a quiet retirement for Aerys.

Rhaegar and Lyanna: “Hear, people of Westeros! We are calling for a Great Council!”

Aerys: “Lock my son in a tower and prepare fire for the northern witch. – Now, what’s next on our schedule?”

– Like this? You can’t call for a council to depose the king if you lack the powerbase to push the demand.

If it was consensual, I wasn't suggesting she should stop sleeping with Rhaegar because his father killed hers - at least, not until Rhaegar endorsed his father's actions by going to fight against Ned and Robert at the Trident.

Rhaegar seemed to think he could call such a Council if he won at the Trident. I don't see why he had to try to kill half the lords in the realm -- including Lyanna's brother -- before calling his Council.

When he becomes the victor of the Trident, he is the one who consolidated the realm and who has an army at his command. He has that powerbase I mentioned previously to depose Aerys – and, also to pardon the rebels. Robert’s death might have been inevitable, though defeating and incapacitating him in that duel might have sufficed; there could have been arrangements, or secret negotiations, to spare Ned, there are no details available.

[FrozenFire3]

Rhaegar and Lyanna: “Hear, people of Westeros! We are calling for a Great Council!”

Aerys: “Lock my son in a tower and prepare fire for the northern witch. – Now, what’s next on our schedule?”

Sorry, I can't help but :lmao:

And the drawing board has yielded this-

http://asoiaf.wester...ony-seastarsbm/

yolkboy's really well thought out and presented theory about Melisandre. I for one am on board, since this one ties up so many of those loose ends that we love to worry at. Do check it out!

Ohhhh, thank you Lady Gwyn for this... precious link ;)

[Maxpey]

AND, the Giants lost........ :bang: :crying:

At least the Cowboys, Redskins and Eagles lost. That is a saving grace. :D

(Sorry to other members for the football comment - it will be last, for the time being, anyway).

[Maxpey]

'tis unfortunate, if it has any deleterious effect on GRRM's enthusiasm for writing. Otherwise I have little interest in the outcome of NFL games except for the Dallas Cowboys, whom I despise for reasons that I have long forgotten. May they always lose. (This "America's Team" nonsense they have come up with only annoyed me further :(

On the other hand this reminds me about an SSM posted in another thread, the which some here may not have seen, about the origins of the star sigil of Sir Patrick of Kings Mountain. It seems that our author lost a bet on the Dallas Cowboys vs. the Football Giants, one result of which was that he had to incorporate the star insignia of the Cowboys into the narrative: he elected to do so in the form of the star sigil of Ser Patrick. There was no hint whatever in the SSM that the sigil in question had anything to do with the bleeding star. Apparently, it was okay so far as the bet went, to have Ser Patrick, bearing the insignia of the Cowboys, savaged by a giant. Being able to write that must have pleased GRRM; so I suspect anyway.

But it pleases me as well as it must send those who were hoping that Ser Patrick's sigil had anything to do with the AAR prophecy back to the drawing board.

Not only that, but the Giant's name was "Wun-Wun", which translates to "One-One" which translates to "#11", which was Phil Simms' number when he was quarterback of the Giants. I heard GRRM talk about this when he was on NPR last year.

[Jory Cassel]

- only one person survives to witness what happened at the tower of joy, and he has been purposefully kept out of the active plot thus far (edit: one person besides ned)

nope, "they" found Ned inside the room with Lyanna, there was at least one more person present ;)

[MtnLion]

Rhaegar and Lyanna: “Hear, people of Westeros! We are calling for a Great Council!”

Aerys: “Lock my son in a tower and prepare fire for the northern witch. – Now, what’s next on our schedule?”

– Like this? You can’t call for a council to depose the king if you lack the powerbase to push the demand.

I must agree with you. I think once Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped, they were in for the long haul. There is nothing that either can do once the dominoes start falling. And, yes, I think Cersei was infected by the same spirit that Aerys hosted. :P

[Ser Creighton]

I must agree with you. I think once Rhaegar and Lyanna eloped, they were in for the long haul. There is nothing that either can do once the dominoes start falling. And, yes, I think Cersei was infected by the same spirit that Aerys hosted. :P

What long haul? Do you really think they were thinking very far down the road, In terms of there situation would work out? "I got an idea lets run away, that will fix everything." At best there actions are those of uneducated adolescents going through a particularly rebellious phase. Well at least as the plot holed filled story stands. Rather sizable gaps of info still missing. Given that neither character seemed very incognisant of who they were, especially Rhaegar, I would still guess than more than a love story is still at play.

Given the dipictions of Rhaegar we are given it seems odd that he would suddenly run off all spring, flowers, daisy's and joy.

I think it will be intresting to find out how well they actually knew one another. Cause that is a very shrouded aspect to this story. At no point are we really given any knowledge of them ever speaking to one another.

If the whole thing is only based on looks, then it's a rather shallow love to begin with. Attraction is one thing, love is another. They really kind of need to add some sort of extended dialogue and getting to no one another before Martin can sell me on a love story. Do you make a rash move like they did with someone who is basically a stranger, and base it only on attraction?

I need a little depth to the actual love story before it becomes anything more than an idiot plot to me.

[MtnLion]

I need a little depth to the actual love story before it becomes anything more than an idiot plot to me.

GRRM has said that he could write a whole book (and we know the size of his books) about what happened at Harrenhal. So, I am guessing that it won't be very shallow, nor was the choice to elope made in haste.

[Ser Creighton]

GRRM has said that he could write a whole book (and we know the size of his books) about what happened at Harrenhal. So, I am guessing that it won't be very shallow, nor was the choice to elope made in haste.

I am sure he could write a book about it, but he hasn't. As for them running away together being in haste or not. That's pure conjecture. Why can I say that? Cause we don't really have the information. So me saying I actually would like a little depth to there story to fill it out a bit as it is very shallow at this point, 5 books in, would seem to make sense to some people. Basically I don't want him breezing over it. And if a writer has to tell the story outside of the books because they didn't do it in the books, then he has done a rather poor job telling the story.

We can make up whatever we want about the story, but it would be nice if he actually told it, in the books. I am not saying hey I need every detail, but come on it needs depth in a major way. He is already using unreliable POV's, that give very little insight into there story, and often contradict. Just kind of wondering when he will start filling it out or if it will be a huge info dump all at once. I am not even talking about Jon, I am talking about there story, Lyanna and Rhaegar. Even a little more depth into the characters themselves would be nice. We have gotten a lot of repetative comments about them.

[MtnLion]

SC, I did say that I was guessing, but the foundation for the elopement certainly seems to have been laid at Harrenhal, some nine or more months before the elopement. Lyanna was teary eyed over Rhaegar('s song) and reacted to Benjen's teasing in a way that shows it is more than a passing feeling. Rhaegar awarded the crown of Love and Beauty to Lyanna, which shows some foundation, as well. It can go either way, but it certainly seems that there clues that it was some longer foundation than the elopement have been presented. Does it matter in the context of A Song of Ice and Fire? I don't think that it is necessary to expand their story, beyond what we already know. We don't need to know the specifics about why Aerys became mad, just what the result of his madness precipitated. We don't need to know about Lyanna's and Rhaegar's courtship, we know enough about Jon, already. Does it matter that Lyanna and Rhaegar did not prevent the war? We know that the war happened, and what the results were, so we must assume that they were incapable of altering that, lacking 20/20 hindsight.

[Ser Creighton]

SC, I did say that I was guessing, but the foundation for the elopement certainly seems to have been laid at Harrenhal, some nine or more months before the elopement. Lyanna was teary eyed over Rhaegar('s song) and reacted to Benjen's teasing in a way that shows it is more than a passing feeling. Rhaegar awarded the crown of Love and Beauty to Lyanna, which shows some foundation, as well. It can go either way, but it certainly seems that there clues that it was some longer foundation than the elopement have been presented. Does it matter in the context of A Song of Ice and Fire? I don't think that it is necessary to expand their story, beyond what we already know. We don't need to know the specifics about why Aerys became mad, just what the result of his madness precipitated. We don't need to know about Lyanna's and Rhaegar's courtship, we know enough about Jon, already. Does it matter that Lyanna and Rhaegar did not prevent the war? We know that the war happened, and what the results were, so we must assume that they were incapable of altering that, lacking 20/20 hindsight.

I could not figure out who SC was for a second. There are clues no denying that. but yes it does need depth. You know we actually have more info on why Aerys went mad. But an illness is far easier to explain than a relationship, choices and actions. By the way Martin did say he would be addressing Rhaegar and Aerys relationship. See he is adding depth there. And given the suspense he has created with Jon's parents you would think he would want to add depth to them. Though I know he can't say that. He can't actually say I need to expand on them, because that alone is to big a clue. But I am surprised he did not develop them a little more, just as characters. Doesn't really need to tie to their story, but add a little depth.

By the way we already know lots of women cried when Rhaegar sang. And in the history of the world people have been crying over music forever. It's not actually an uncommon reaction and neither are brothers and sisters teasing, fighting etc. Arya hit Sansa with turnips, or peas or some kind of food.

If you want an example in the books of shallow love, look no further than Sansa Stark. Was she really in love with Joffery, or just infatuated with a Prince until she actually got to know him? I am going to go with infatuation.

I can write in a paragraph how much we really know about Rhaegar and Lyanna. Well one each, it's me after all, I am wordy.

I would also like to know why Robert was so in love with her. Although the story points to more of an idea with him, his own creation, in his mind of who she was. He basically made her perfect. And mostly I think he is just pissed because his cousin got something he wanted. But again that points to shallow.

The one person in the books that I can say without a shadow of a doubt truly loved Lyanna was Ned. I can easily speculate on Brandon and Benjen, after all they are family. But it's easy to see Ned really did have a very deep emotional attachment to her. It's also easy to speculate that they all knew her rather well, being family and all.

[Jon Icefyre]

Your from Chi?

Indeed I am!

[Alia of the knife]

I don't know if I really stand by the Margaret part. I think it's at least as likely, probably more so, that Rhaegar is based off of Raymond Martin.

Oh that's right. I'd forgotten that.

I do think it's clever if this is what he is doing, but also very sentimental.

I believe that Authors start with what they know.

As a boy, he probably knew a grouchy neighbor that never smiled, and "Tywin" was born. :P

[Alia of the knife]

Indeed I am!

Well, I guess I'm now officially a Bears fan just because of you guys. :bowdown:

[Jon Icefyre]

Well, I guess I'm now officially a Bears fan just because of you guys. :bowdown:

Haha yes! :cheers: