R+L=J v 61

[FrozenFire3]

I'm really in for the ride, confident in Martin's alchemy of storytelling. IT, KitN, Regent in the North, Last Hero or Cincinnatus (the Roman statesman who twice granted supreme power, he held onto it for not a day longer than absolutely necessary)... it doesn't make any difference. All I want is 'intense' and GRRM's writing is all about intensity.

[Ygrain]

They could marry between sieblings, roast lords,...whatever they pleased while they had dragons.

...and happily continued even after the dragons were gone :-)

[finger]

This is very much the way I see it.

I notice you endorse Lyanna, but not, apparently, Rhaegar. Mayhaps another name could explain. Care to suggest that name?

I complete endorse R+L=J, it's just that I was talking about Wylla, and it doesn't involve Rhaegar. Most probably Rhaegar had left ToJ before Wylla arrived there.

Rhaegar's part is about KG and Aegon, but this is another story.

R+L are the only ones who're not logic in their relation. Theirs is a tragic love story, they couldn't escape their fate. They put together ice and fire till they fell apart, victims of a guilty love.

Beautiful tragedy, isn't it?

[finger]

A little bit off topic, but over the R+L threads I have read, this line cones up a lot..."Jon wont ever get to the IT. He is committed to the Watch and will stay as Lord Commander." (something along those lines)

I am doing a reread now, and I completely disagree with that. I think Jon is dedicated to fighting the Others, rather that the NW. He may not know it yet, but it is there in the text.

Anyone else think this way?...

There's no contradiction there. Just reread Lord Mormont's last words he says to Sam. The true purpose of the NW and the Wall are to fight the Others, not the wildlings.

He also justifies Jon's actions when he's named LC.

[The guy from the Vale]

There's no contradiction there. Just reread Lord Mormont's last words he says to Sam. The true purpose of the NW and the Wall are to fight the Others, not the wildlings.

He also justifies Jon's actions when he's named LC.

There would be no contradiction there if the NW was able to defend against the Others on its own. As things are looking right now, I don't see that being the case. So in order to defeat the Others, Jon may have to use all the resources at his disposal - including increased power as KitN or even KotIT - to avert the Ice Zombie Apocalypse. He may have to break the letter of the NW oath to fulfill its spirit (and indeed, that would be quite fitting to the story so far).

[finger]

On the matter of Jon and IR, it's possible it could go either way.

I'm not fond of the idea that Jon take the IR either because I believe his fate is greater than a throne, though that fate could be fatal, or irreversible.

And I don't think he'd want it, but due to honorable Ned's teachings, if he is the last Targ. standing, he may very well feel it's his duty to take it.

We've already seen he can be "determined" in making the decisions he feels he needs to make, because if I remember correctly, at one point Samwell regrets helping him become LC.

As far as power vs. the person goes, I don't think all people become corrupted, but it is possible that people end up becoming what they didn't want to be. In Frank Herbert's story, "Dune," Paul takes the throne a hero but becomes a tyrant, the very thing he didn't want to be, but to some degree, had to be.

He later tries to correct it, even trying to destroy his sister.

So yeah, I think Jon could potentially go down the same route.

:agree: Defeating the Others is far more important than wearing a crown.

There are clues enough pointing Jon as AAR. I don't remember AA was a king, but a warrior. He forged Lightbringer, and used it to defeat some enemeies, but I don't have a clear idea about his related and further deeds.

Sorry but it's Tyrion who'll die in the fight with the Others. He's the Last Hero. It grieves me, but the clues are overwhelming, I just can't deny them.

[finger]

...and happily continued even after the dragons were gone :-)

Actually, I was quoting Martin :-) He said something about laws and dragons.

While the had dragons, their power was absolute. When the dragons disappeared, their power declined, until they were ouasted.

Power is amongst the main themes of the series.

[finger]

There would be no contradiction there if the NW was able to defend against the Others on its own. As things are looking right now, I don't see that being the case. So in order to defeat the Others, Jon may have to use all the resources at his disposal - including increased power as KitN or even KotIT - to avert the Ice Zombie Apocalypse. He may have to break the letter of the NW oath to fulfill its spirit (and indeed, that would be quite fitting to the story so far).

Of course. Still, no contradiction.

The task is defeating the Others, whatever is takes. It may and must involve the NW, the wildling, dragons, greenseers, old gods, new gods, red gods, or anything can help in "the battle of Armagedon."

[Han Snow]

Back it up with something.

Just what I said, I think it's inherently corrupting and it symbolizes subjugation and brutality. I don't want Jon to have anything to do with it.

A new capitol, a new throne, heck a new kingdom are not so hard to imagine by the end of the saga. Are they?

Melting the Iron Throne wouldn't be so ridiculous to see? Especially if there are dragons involved. ;)

[Nymeriawolf]

This probably has been asked before, do you think Varys would know about R+L=J? As he knows everything.

[Foothill]

There would be no contradiction there if the NW was able to defend against the Others on its own. As things are looking right now, I don't see that being the case. So in order to defeat the Others, Jon may have to use all the resources at his disposal - including increased power as KitN or even KotIT - to avert the Ice Zombie Apocalypse. He may have to break the letter of the NW oath to fulfill its spirit (and indeed, that would be quite fitting to the story so far).

Yeah this is my view as well on where Jon is heading. He will choose to break his vows to uphold what the vows stem from.

Very fitting to me, and it also seems like GRRM's style.

[Foothill]

This probably has been asked before, do you think Varys would know about R+L=J? As he knows everything.

I dont think so (but who knows). I like it if he doesnt because it makes Eddard knowing so much better.

[WhiteOwl18]

I dont think so (but who knows). I like it if he doesnt because it makes Eddard knowing so much better.

I agree. One of the sweetest ironies of RLJ is that honorable, naive Ned Stark, who was terrible at playing the game, manage to make a move that no one saw coming, including Varys, one of the best players!

[Ygrain]

This probably has been asked before, do you think Varys would know about R+L=J? As he knows everything.

He doesn't know everything. He didn't know that Joff was planning to have Eddard beheaded. He didn't know about the Purple Wedding and the scheme to smuggle out Sansa.

[LadyMary]

I stand corrected, so my crackpot theory may rest in peace. :dunno:

Doesn't mean the misfits died with it. The biggest one, imho, is that Lyanna's alleged abduction and rape was an important piece in a struggle for the IT. Rhaegar would have to be mind-numbingly stupid to do anything that gave weight to the accusations. And him playing honeymoon for almost a year while the Realm was on fire is somewhat hard to accept too. Rhaegar was fighting on several fronts: against his father, against the rebels, against ?. If he was worth anything, he worked hard to avert the catastrophe.

I really don't rule out that Jon is Lyanna's son after all, but I do believe there's a lot more to the story than some fairy tale love affair gone tragically wrong.

"Prophesy is like a half-trained mule. It looks as though it might be useful, but the moment you trust in it, it kicks you in the head." - Tyrion, ADWD.

Not everyone who believes R+L=J believes it has to do with succession for the Iron Throne. Rhaegar was apparently obsessed with a prophesy that had to do with something much bigger than that. If he believed that his children - his three children, held the key to saving the realm from darkness or some prophesied enemy (the Others?), he may have felt he had to make it happen to fulfill the prophesy.

Since GRRM has verbally (and textually) confirmed that Azor Ahai Reborn is the same as the Prince That Was Promised; basically, two different versions of the same prophesy from different sources (Westeros and Essos), maybe the details of the two versions can be merged as well.

Rhaegar may have been wrong in his interpretation of the prophesy, or at least some detail of it. Apparently he first believed he was the PTWP, then he believed it was his son Aegon, but the dragon has three heads - hence, he needed to have three children which, apart from falling in love with Lyanna, probably led to his taking her as a second wife or paramour. It may be that Jon is the PTWP/AAR, instead of Aegon. It may be that Rhaegar was right in the first case - and was the PTWP/AAR, and Jon is Lightbringer. We won't know until the Creator (GRRM) reveals it all. So, there's the added twist to the love story of Rhaegar and Lyanna.

So, R+L=J has importance to the story in a much bigger way than just who sits on the IT, but there are details yet to be revealed about how the prophesy plays out. And personally, I think the IT is a big Macguffin in the grand scheme of things, and the real importance of Jon's unique parentage is still unfolding in the far North.

A little bit off topic, but over the R+L threads I have read, this line cones up a lot..."Jon wont ever get to the IT. He is committed to the Watch and will stay as Lord Commander." (something along those lines)

I am doing a reread now, and I completely disagree with that. I think Jon is dedicated to fighting the Others, rather that the NW. He may not know it yet, but it is there in the text.

Anyone else think this way?...

I think Jon's interaction with Qhorin Halfhand teachs us that there are more important things than strictly sticking to the vows of the NW. Defending the realm is the big picture. Whatever it takes to do that, you do it.

Also, I could absolutely see Jon ending up as a/the king. Or maybe he becomes king but dies. I wouldn't rule out a crown or throne in his future. And, honestly, I'm not sure why people hate the idea of him becoming king so much. It seems like Jon would be a pretty good king, which the people of Westeros deserve after so many years of incompetent rulers.

I can too, but of Robb's kingdom and possibly the Vale. My aversion to Jon on the Iron Throne has nothing to do with any aversion to Jon himself or his skills. Rather it's about my aversion to the Iron Throne as an institution.

As I said above, I don't think the IT will have much importance in the end. That even assumes the "Seven Kingdoms" is still a single unit in the end after the coming apocalypse. What Aegon the Conqueror built may be in ash or buried under deep snow when the Spring comes again, and whoever survives will have to build something new from the ruin.

I would like to see Jon become King in the North, but I think his destiny is tied to defeating the forces of darkness. I hate the idea that he is doomed to live a miserable, loveless cold existence in the Nights Watch, but like the Iron Throne, I think the NW will be changed or ruined by the end of Winter anyway. Whatever Jon's fate (and I hope he isn't sacrificed after fighting to save the realm from darkness), I don't think he'll come anywhere near the IT, nor would he want it.

[Alia of the knife]

I'm really in for the ride, confident in Martin's alchemy of storytelling. IT, KitN, Regent in the North, Last Hero or Cincinnatus (the Roman statesman who twice granted supreme power, he held onto it for not a day longer than absolutely necessary)... it doesn't make any difference. All I want is 'intense' and GRRM's writing is all about intensity.

Completely agree. :bowdown:

[The guy from the Vale]

I'm really in for the ride, confident in Martin's alchemy of storytelling. IT, KitN, Regent in the North, Last Hero or Cincinnatus (the Roman statesman who twice granted supreme power, he held onto it for not a day longer than absolutely necessary)... it doesn't make any difference. All I want is 'intense' and GRRM's writing is all about intensity.

I also don't have a strong opinion on how I want or don't want the story to end; as long as it is well-told, I think I can live with most endings (perhaps with the exception of Westeros being overrun by Others or either one of Varys and Baelish "winning").

That said, I am surprised by the number of people who do have ferociously held opinions on how the story may or may not end, so I end up arguing for the possiility (at least) of Jon actually ending up on the throne. As long as Martin writes a plausible way for it to happen, I will be satisfied, and I have faith in Martin to write such an outcome in a credible manner.

[Lord Dolorous Edd]

Sean Bean knows guys somebody find him

[Greymoon]

I concur, but the final twist does not need to go against R+L=J. The final twist can be what R+L=J means for the story.

Ignoring inconsistencies is quite different from ignoring weak alternative theories.

Not one that had been presented here, which was my point.

These hints that are already well-hidden within the story? These hints that lead to other hints and also provide explanations to other issues within the story? I don't see it happening. GRRM himself is secretive when it comes to the subject of Jon's parentage. Why would he be secretive if the answer had already been laid out in the story? Why would he be so secretive if it's hinting towards something else that hasn't been considered?

As you stated yourself, putting the clues together in the books is not as complicated as interpreting history.

It's wrong to laugh at its plausibility simply because it's not explicitly stated, and it's wrong to combat it with theories not as well supported in the text.

You totally missed the point I was trying to make. It's not wrong to have an opinion, and it's never wrong to question a theory as long as it's not been explicitly confirmed. There's no need to make it personal, to laugh at the theory or to laugh at people who are questioning it. That's what I take issue with. And yes, it goes both ways I'm by no means denying that.

[Alia of the knife]

I also don't have a strong opinion on how I want or don't want the story to end; as long as it is well-told, I think I can live with most endings (perhaps with the exception of Westeros being overrun by Others or either one of Varys and Baelish "winning").

That said, I am surprised by the number of people who do have ferociously held opinions on how the story may or may not end, so I end up arguing for the possiility (at least) of Jon actually ending up on the throne. As long as Martin writes a plausible way for it to happen, I will be satisfied, and I have faith in Martin to write such an outcome in a credible manner.

Agreed as well.

I think what I am most surprised by is the hostility that sometimes accompanies these strongly held opinions.

I have favorite characters too, and a vision of what I think might happen, but at the end of the day, it's Martin who makes the decisions and if it's not my particular vision, I'm okay with that, and don't have an over arching need to be right.

Martins one responsibility is to be a good story teller, and even if his themes have been done before, (sometimes known as the cliché), as I've always said, I'd rather a well told cliché than a badly done attempt at "edgy," whatever that is.