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Hodoris

I think Varys has a hand in the downfall of Ned Stark

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This is just a wild theory that came in my mind but I think that it might be true after reading the last chapter of ADWD.

Varys kills Kevan Lannister and that time he tells Kevan that Aegon Targaryen has been trained properly all these years so that he can return to the throne and Kevan had to die as he was improving the situation that was made worse by Cersei

If we go according to this, Ned Stark returns to Kings Landing after many years and in between Robert has resorted to whoring and splurging all the money. All the gold dragons that were left by the Targaryens are almost over and the Iron Throne was borrowing gold from Iron Bank of Braavos.

Ned Stark saw all that was wrong and was trying to improve the situation. So according to the same logic, Varys made sure that Ned fell from his position. I am not saying he wanted to kill Ned Stark but he convinced Ned Stark to take the black.

I rest my case. Waiting for your opinion on this.

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I don't think there is any question about Varys wanting Ned out of the picture. The conversation Arya heard between Varys and Illyrio made that pretty clear IMO.

That's true. Varys had only one aim. To make sure that the realm was in trouble and then bring back the rightful heir and all those who wanted to make the situation better were going against his plan and hence had to be removed from the picture.

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Well, I might quibble a bit with that.



Ned was set up by Littlefinger and Lysa. She sent that deliberately misleading letter. Littlefinger did everything he could to lead Ned down the path of destruction, and into the Lannister soup. (Let's not get into Lady Stark's misadventures.) I believe Varys tried to warn Ned off. I do not think he did anything overt to hurry Ned's demise. Littlefinger was had Ned by the nose, and pulled him a long. But Varys did nothing to help Ned, because Ned was not useful, had no power and (worse) could not be manipulated -- it was so easy to "let" Tyrion have his revenge.



I agree that Varys now wants as much chaos and instability in Westeros as possible. I was appalled when Tywin Lannister was killed (not that he did not deserve a thumping from Tyrion), who was going to ride herd on Cersi and the quarreling lords? And, his poor brother met the same fate because he tried to exert some control.


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I agree with Beathag, Varys had the greatest of respect for Ned, I can't remember be I'm fairly certain that he was advising the little monster boy king to let ned take the Black. i think that it was he's intention that when Aegon returned he was going to have Ned pardoned of his non-crimes



Call be crazy but I trust the shadowy, manipulative, master of whispers, spy master eunuch (He's one of my favorites)


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It makes no sense for Varys to secretly talk to Ned in the cells, bring him wine and water and to go crazy when Joffrey orders his execution if that is what he really wanted. Varys respected Ned 100% because of his honor. Varys is not that evil, the small things like him getting Edric Storm a present each year or making sure Gendry was safe prove that.

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I agree with Beathag, Varys had the greatest of respect for Ned, I can't remember be I'm fairly certain that he was advising the little monster boy king to let ned take the Black. i think that it was he's intention that when Aegon returned he was going to have Ned pardoned of his non-crimes

Call be crazy but I trust the shadowy, manipulative, master of whispers, spy master eunuch (He's one of my favorites)

This does make sense!!

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I think considering the ending of ADWD it makes a lot of sense for Varys to want The Ned to take the black.



Varys knows that The Ned knew the secret of Joffrey's parentage. The Ned has a reputation as an honest man, the North would believe him if he told his story, so to would many of the nobles of Westeros. If he is parked safely out of the way on the Wall, The Ned can do no harm to Varys' schemes but could be brought into play to discredit King Joffrey at any time.



But of course Varys' schemes are rather overtaken by the war of the five kings.


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That's true. Varys had only one aim. To make sure that the realm was in trouble and then bring back the rightful heir and all those who wanted to make the situation better were going against his plan and hence had to be removed from the picture.

Varys wanted a war but much later. He did his utmost to delay the war. It was Littlefinger who brought down Ned because he wanted to put Stannis on the throne and that would have meant the end of Littlefinger for one of the first things that Stannis would do is put his head on a spike.

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"But Varys did nothing to help Ned, because Ned was not useful, had no power and (worse) could not be manipulated -- it was so easy to "let" Tyrion have his revenge."






What did I mean by that? Must have been tired.



I am re-reading Game, and have reached the part in which Varys comes to Ned in the Tower in disguise. The conversation that ensues is not angry or threatening. Varys seems concerned for Robert's welfare. He tells Ned that he (Ned) is the only person that has Robert's best interests at heart, and Robert needs protection from his wife.



I think that Varys is not a menace. Little Finger seems to fit that role so well


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Well, I might quibble a bit with that.

Ned was set up by Littlefinger and Lysa. She sent that deliberately misleading letter. Littlefinger did everything he could to lead Ned down the path of destruction, and into the Lannister soup. (Let's not get into Lady Stark's misadventures.) I believe Varys tried to warn Ned off. I do not think he did anything overt to hurry Ned's demise. Littlefinger was had Ned by the nose, and pulled him a long. But Varys did nothing to help Ned, because Ned was not useful, had no power and (worse) could not be manipulated -- it was so easy to "let" Tyrion have his revenge.

I agree that Varys now wants as much chaos and instability in Westeros as possible. I was appalled when Tywin Lannister was killed (not that he did not deserve a thumping from Tyrion), who was going to ride herd on Cersi and the quarreling lords? And, his poor brother met the same fate because he tried to exert some control.

But why would Varys want more chaos in the realm. I though Little finger stated that he wanted the realm in chaos because he would have a greater chance to advance in Westeros. Varys always stated whatever he did was good for the realm.

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But why would Varys want more chaos in the realm. I though Little finger stated that he wanted the realm in chaos because he would have a greater chance to advance in Westeros. Varys always stated whatever he did was good for the realm.

I think at the time Ned was in the Black Cells, Varys wanted the containable or manageable chaos at hand. If Ned had let the cat of out the bag regarding Cersei and Jaime, Robert probably would have killed them both -- starting a war with House Lannister. All hell would have broken loose in Westeros and Varys did not want that. Not then. No Targ was ready.

What is hard for me to understand how Little Finger's plans evaded Varys. When Arya was following Illyrio and Varys in the depths of the castle, one of them said And Little Finger...who knows what game Little Finger is playing? (or something to that effect).

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Well, I might quibble a bit with that.

Ned was set up by Littlefinger and Lysa. She sent that deliberately misleading letter. Littlefinger did everything he could to lead Ned down the path of destruction, and into the Lannister soup. (Let's not get into Lady Stark's misadventures.) I believe Varys tried to warn Ned off. I do not think he did anything overt to hurry Ned's demise. Littlefinger was had Ned by the nose, and pulled him a long. But Varys did nothing to help Ned, because Ned was not useful, had no power and (worse) could not be manipulated -- it was so easy to "let" Tyrion have his revenge.

I agree that Varys now wants as much chaos and instability in Westeros as possible. I was appalled when Tywin Lannister was killed (not that he did not deserve a thumping from Tyrion), who was going to ride herd on Cersi and the quarreling lords? And, his poor brother met the same fate because he tried to exert some control.

I agree. When Varys and Illyrio are speaking in the cellars in aGoT, they are discussing the war to come. Varys believes they need more time to prepare Aegon, and Illyrio tells him to delay the war which is about to burst. Varys tells Illyrio he is no longer able to since "even the finest of jugglers cannot keep a hundred balls in the air forever". Varys wanted a delay, but situations has escalated so far already (thanks to LF's meddling), that further delay was no longer possible.

Ned's arrest lead to Robb starting his march south, indicating the fighting was truly about to become a war. But if Ned were to take the Black, Robb would settle back down in Winterfell again, and the arguments between Tully's and Lannisters could be resolved. That way, Varys would have had his delay, sort of, and Aegon could be prepared a bit better. So it was in Varys' best interest to have Ned survive, no matter in what fashion. Ned and his honest ways could even be of use to Varys at the Wall, should that prove necessary.

It was all in Varys' best interests to keep Ned alive. That's why he came to give Ned water, and why he convinced Joffrey (together with Cersei) to send Ned to the Wall if he would confess. Joffrey, however, changed his mind after agreeing with Varys and Cersei, and I can easily see LF having something to do with that. After all, it was LF who wanted a war, and the best way to ensure one, was by having Ned killed.

Kevan at the end of aDwD has to go, since the war is over, and Aegon is still landing, and thus, there is need for more chaos. Kevan is trying to fix all the chaos Cersei left behind, and he's proving to be very good in it. Too good, for he's bringing all the great houses back together, and that's exactly what they can't use if they want to have a chance to seat Aegon on the throne. That's why Kevan had to die (and Pycelle as well).

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Call be crazy but I trust the shadowy, manipulative, master of whispers, spy master eunuch (He's one of my favorites)

Me too. I feel like I should NOT trust Varys, in so far as the Starks go, but I do. He tried to help Ned, but was stymied by Ned's damnable honour code and insistence on doing what he thought was right rather than what was smart.

Will he help the Starks regain Winterfell? Don't know. I think like many in King's Landing, he doesn't give a shit what happens in the north.

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I agree with Beathag, Varys had the greatest of respect for Ned, I can't remember be I'm fairly certain that he was advising the little monster boy king to let ned take the Black. i think that it was he's intention that when Aegon returned he was going to have Ned pardoned of his non-crimes

Call be crazy but I trust the shadowy, manipulative, master of whispers, spy master eunuch (He's one of my favorites)

I agree, Varys was in on the destruction of Kings Landing however, the deal was that Ned was to take the black with Jon Snow. Joffrey, double crossed the entire council even, Cersi was upset at what he did. With Varys & his folk, they needed more time to get Aegon ready by, killing Ned that would put them at War right away( which happen). For Me I don't think that this Aegon is the real deal. Remember Varys hates anyone that has to do with magic. Varys respected Ned because of his honor( the talk that he had with Tryion before the Battle of Blackwater). I feel that he feels the same way about Tryion. He has stated time & time again that he wants what is best for The Country.

I do think that he flipped his switch from dani to Aegon once her dragons hatched. I don't think that he wants anything to do with them.

R_T: You and I think alike. Did not see your post but 100% :bowdown:

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He wanted ned out of the picture sure. But I don't think he had to put in much effort to get that done, as ned's downfall was due to him uncovering the incest, and a few bad decisions after that (telling Cersei his plans, trusting littlefinger, but even if he hadn't told Cersei or lf, lf would probably have found out through his sources and told cersei everything himself. working with renly wouldn't have been honorable but would have worked for ned imo).



Varys could have saved Ned, but chose not to as it was in his best interests. A north led by ned would never have bowed to a possible blackfyre. and without dragons, taking the north isn't possible imo.


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He wanted Ned out of the way .....but I don't think he wanted him to get his head chopped off....In fact Varys convinced Cersei to convinenetly have him shipped off to the Wall. I think his plan was to set off a war and lay the groundwork for targs to reclaim the throne. But the plan went a little haywire when Ned was decapitated and the war started before schedule.


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When Varys says he only wants what's good for the Realm, he means the Targaryen Realm. He wasn't able to stop Robert at the Trident nor Jaime from killing Aerys II. Later, he probably figured Robert would make the throne weak enough to over throw and bring back Viserys. Stannis, Cersei and certainly Joffery would do just as well for his plans. Tyrion, Tywin and Eddard were all trying to strengthen the Realm as is. Ned would have gone to the wall. He did warn Tyrion not to go to his father's bed chambers and that nothing good could come from it.......after telling him in detail how to reach his fathers bed chambers.


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