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Crackpot Alert: Might Lem Be Richard Lonmouth?

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All points to Lady Gwynhyfvar, I'm just taking this show on the road.

Crazy and probably not true, but color me intrigued.

Rhaegar had two squires, Myles Mooton and Richard Lonmouth. They, along with Arthur Dayne, were his closest companions. Myles is explicitly confirmed to be dead, killed by Robert at the Battle of the Bells. With Richard though, there's not word one. We have no idea what happened one way or the other.

Lonmouth is interesting because he has the distinction of being obliquely mentioned in the Knight of the Laughing Tree story. He's the knight of skulls and kisses with whom Robert gets into a drinking match. Now, anyone who has dissected that story for any length of time knows that just about everyone in it is significant, some of them highly significant. Like, Monmouth is being mentioned in the same story as Ashara and Arthur Dayne, the Starks, Oberyn Martell, Jon Connington, Howland Reed, Tywin and Jaime Lannister, Rhaegar Targaryen, Mace Tyrell, etc. Kind of the big leagues. And if Rhaegar only had two squires, why be so clear about the fate of one and silent on the fate of the other?

The Lonmouth colors are primarily black and yellow, with red lips on the yellow and skulls on the black. When Arya first sees Lem, he's wearing a black iron helm and the obvious bright yellow cloak. She also notes that the cloak is stained with grass and blood. The blood in particular is interesting because red on yellow matches the yellow portion of the Lonmouth sigil. Lem's built like a soldier and that's how Arya thinks of him, but he doesn't seem to belong to any organized force or household guard apart from the Brotherhood. So where would he have learned his stuff? He's also been around the block a time or two, which would fit someone who'd probably be in his, oh, mid-30s or so, maybe a tad older, who had a lot of fighting experience.

Arya asks them which king they serve and Lem says, "King Robert," which admittedly seems odd for an ex-squire of Rhaegar. However, Arya thinks to herself that they don't look like king's men. Later when they're in the inn, Anguy makes a toast to the king and Lem mutters, "All twelve o' them." They all then proceed to get plowed together.

It gets more interesting when they visit the Ghost of High Heart.

"Dreams," grumbled Lem Lemoncloak. "What good are dreams? Fish women and drowned crows. I had a dream myself last night. I was kissing this tavern wench I used to know. Are you going to pay me for that, old woman?

"The wench is dead," the woman hissed. "Only worms may kiss her now."

The next Arya chapter begin with Harwin telling Arya about the Battle of the Bells, Robert killing Myles and Jon Connington's defeat. No mention of Richard. It's an interesting placement, though, no?

Much later, Lem is present when Brienne is about to be hanged. This one might be a stretch, but it's in this scene that Brienne's choice of words and her choice of action are critical. The power of choice is emphasized. The Lonmouths' words are, "The Choice in Yours."

What sticks out a lot to me is that the primary members of the Brotherhood all have pretty established backstories. Thoros came to court to try to convert Aerys, Beric is obviously the Lightning Lord, Tom has a, heh, history with Edmure, Anguy showed up at the Hand's tournament and is from the Dornish marshes. But to my knowledge — and by all means, someone share it if I'm missing it — Lem is a blank slate.

He seems to know his way around the Riverlands and he seems to have had a wife and daughter who were killed. House Lonmouth is a Stormlands house; if Lonmouth melted into the Riverlands after the rebellion, he could have been largely undetected, being a regional outsider, but also have had time by now to have had a family and become very familiar with the region.

I also noticed that Lem in particular seems to make few if any good-vs.-bad distinctions between wolves and lions, but he has a hard-on for the Lannisters in particular. Many of the other members seem to think they're doing justice or carrying out Robert's will, but what if Lem's primary motivation in all of this — remembering that we know pretty much nothing about him — is just to kill Lannisters, avenging Rhaegar's wife and children?

And of course there has to be a, "So what?" angle in all of this. Which takes me back to the Knight of the Laughing Tree story. Again, Richard's inclusion in it at all is interesting. But it also means that the original source of the story — Howland Reed — marked Richard visually. Howland Reed knows Richard Lonmouth, even if the opposite isn't true. Like I suggested, I'd guess that Richard/Lem just laid low after the war and that was that, especially if people assumed he was dead. But I can't imagine that someone like Howland, who has told this story to his kids often enough that they have it memorized, wouldn't know the guy if he saw him.

And where is the Brotherhood Without Banners disappearing off to? The Neck. If you want to go further, if you buy into the Ashara and Howland theory, that's another person there who would know Richard, and Richard would know Ashara whereas he might not necessarily know Howland. Someone as close to Rhaegar as Richard was (and I mean actually close, not "JonCon" close) might be able to do something like, say, vouch for Rhaegar and Lyanna's romance if it became necessary.

Anyway. Probably wrong but food for thought. :P

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I wouldnt label this as "crackpot"...rather..."outside chance"...

...regardless, I like it a lot and never even considered it. Kudos.

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I like this theory because i did notice how Lem has like no backstory. Which is weird because all of the BwB guys we meet seem to have backstories. No one even asks, "Hey Lem, what did you do before the war?" Ya know?

vouch for Rhaegar and Lyanna's romance if it became necessary.

He could. He most certainly could confirm that Rhae-man totally had a thing for Lyanna and maybe even confirm whether or not she came willingly. As Rhaegar's squire, he'd know that much. His blood boner for the Lannisters, you mentioned makes me really ponder.

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It might be a long shot, but it's definitely a pretty cool theory (even if I had to be reminded of who, exactly, Richard Lonmouth was, haha).

Nice work, Apple.

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I love Lady Gwyn's theory and I'm glad you got this out, Apple. I spent way too much time today searching for Lem stuff after Gwyn was talking about it in another thread. A lot of things add up. One think that trips me up is his peasant talk. M'lord instead of My Lord. This isn't necessarily a killer for the theory. After all, if he's been living it up with the peasants for 15 years, he'd likely adopt the language. My eyes got tired before I could get around to seeing if he ever speaks noble or if it's always peasant. One thing I did notice was that his dialect was more forced than others. By that, I mean, peasant talk is noticeable and he seemed to use it more than other peasants he was around. Mayhaps he was the one to teach Roose (did they ever come in contact?).

There's some extra bit of interesting when thinking this theory further. There's the broken man angle. There's the possibility that Richard Lonmouth knew about Lyanna and Rhaegar and was the one to inform Ned where Lyanna was or given Ned an idea of where to start looking.

It will be curious what other quotes we can scrounge up that aids this theory.

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It might be a long shot, but it's definitely a pretty cool theory (even if I had to be reminded of who, exactly, Richard Lonmouth was, haha).

Nice work, Apple.

I think that's the appeal of it. Richard Lonmouth is such a seemingly throwaway character that it's hard to really nail that much down about him. But that's why the color patterns and "kiss" and "choice" variables are interesting.

And DP pointed out that of all the people in Meera's story, the only specific person (apart from the bully houses, with which we're familiar anyway — Frey, Blount and Haigh) who's really unaccounted for is Richard, our knight of skulls and kisses. It's not even so much Lem's lack of backstory that gets me at this point, but Richard's inclusion in a story where everyone is a BFD.

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This is much tighter theory than Patchface being Richard Lonmouth.

I'd love if this was true. Lem has been an enigma thus far and I think this works really well.

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I just remembered this quote, where Lem's cloak is said to be the color of piss. It's said by the buxom red-haired inkeep in Stoney Sept (not sure her name).

Lem, is that you? Still wearing the same ratty cloak, are you? I know why you never wash it, I do. You’re afraid all the piss will wash out and we’ll see you’re really a knight o’ the Kingsguard!

It's just talk, but there is that deliberate connection GRRM made with the KG and thus the royal family.

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I just remembered this quote, where Lem's cloak is said to be the color of piss. It's said by the buxom red-haired inkeep in Stoney Sept (not sure her name).

Lem, is that you? Still wearing the same ratty cloak, are you? I know why you never wash it, I do. You’re afraid all the piss will wash out and we’ll see you’re really a knight o’ the Kingsguard!

It's just talk, but there is that deliberate connection GRRM made with the KG and thus the royal family.

That's pretty sweet. Even if Richard wasn't in the Kingsguard, it does seem pretty on the nose and it at the very least links Lem to royalty or at least royal companions.

It's frustrating that other than being Rhaegar's squire, we know virtually nothing about him. Myles at least has a confirmation of death, down to the place and the deed-doer.

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As far as I remember, doesn't Lem speak like with a low-born, smallfolk dialect? Of course this could just be a cover but wouldn't a squire for the crown prince speak like he spent time in the capital?

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As far as I remember, doesn't Lem speak like with a low-born, smallfolk dialect? Of course this could just be a cover but wouldn't a squire for the crown prince speak like he spent time in the capital?

DP addressed that higher up. She also noted that his dialect seemed a little more pronounced than the others', which is something a guy who's trying to lay low and blend in would want to affect if he's trying to pass himself off as a nobody.

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Very interesting theory! I don't think this pot seems cracked at all. Lem's lack of backstory has always bugged me. IMO there must be a reason why we know so much (relatively speaking) about the others in the BwB, and so little about him. This sounds like an excellent one. :bowdown:

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Yes this theory seems very agreeable. And as for the Howland - Richard connection, that is a fresh point made here which makes it plausible, otherwise it just remains a cliffhanger. Where the hell are you Howland Reed? So much depends on you.

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And of course, the Food Code of Ice and Fire is pretty specific when it comes to lemons: innocence, nostalgia and yearning for better times. Where it makes Dany and Sansa wistful, it could make someone like Richard, well, sour.

ETA: DP verified for me that the Lonmouths' sigil isn't verified in the books but would have been described by GRRM at some point outside of them. So we have a mystery knight drinking with Robert (Lonmouths are a Stormlands house; maybe Richard was friends with Robert, too, which would explain Lem's "King Robert" line), in a lineup of heavies, and it would take serious outside-the-book digging to figure out who the guy is. Meanwhile, once you dig up the sigil info, you can trace it back to Rhaegar's squire who oh by the way fell off the face of the earth and no one's on record as having killed him or knowing who killed him.

Lem or not, this dude's turning up at some point.

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Ok, so I mentioned the peasant dialect earlier. There's something interesting. When Lem is speaking with Brienne about Jaime and her mission, the peasant talk nearly disappears. Before this, there was peasant talk. When they reach the area with Catelyn and co, peasant talk slips in for a moment. Harwin (assuming Harwin is the northmen present) drops a bit of peasant talk with milady, while Lem says m'lady. I've tried a search but so far I haven't found Harwin dropping a milady earlier in the series when he was with Arya.

In this scene, Lem is really upset about Jaime. Remarks on his broken oaths. When it was first learned that Jaime was released, Lem wanted a piece of him. By itself it doesn't mean much, but it's interesting in light of this.

Also, Lem had a wife and daughter. Who knew? Who were they?

Ok, now I'm crackpiping the crackpot and going off the deep end.

There's a lot of skull imagery surrounding Jon in ADWD. Mel sees skulls all around him, there's Rattleshirt, the Bridge of Skulls. And Mel saying this about Patchface: “That creature is dangerous. Many a time I have glimpsed him in my flames. Sometimes there are skulls about him, and his lips are red with blood.

Now, we know Patchface and Lonmouth aren't the same because the timelines don't add up. But we also know that Mel interprets her visions wrong. Jon wonders why she hasn't burned his yet. Maybe because she's just really not sure if it's truly him.

Isn't the last we hear, Lady Stoneheart is said to be making her way to the Neck? Is Lem with her? Before Brienne is brought before Stoneheart, Thoros tells her: “We were king’s men when we began,” the man told her, “but king’s men must have a king, and we have none."

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I have to say,i don't view this as a crackpot,this is actually highly plausible.This could be very interesting the Howland/Richard possibility. Nice one !

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Isn't the last we hear, Lady Stoneheart is said to be making her way to the Neck? Is Lem with her? Before Brienne is brought before Stoneheart, Thoros tells her: “We were king’s men when we began,” the man told her, “but king’s men must have a king, and we have none."

Lem is with Stoneheart's group, yes, at least when Brienne is hanged. The part about them needing a king but not having one is interesting, because if they do meet up with Howland: "... well funny you should mention that, it just so happens we have one for you ..."

Richard/Lem on his own is obviously not going to single-handedly win any wars for Jon or anyone else. But what he knows might be extremely valuable. He might be one of the last people alive, if not the last person alive, who can shed some light on the background of Jon's identity — not just that Jon has the parents he does, but everything leading up to it, the plans, motivations, etc.

I also love the idea that it's not Patchface whom Mel sees.

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Great post. I love how you've spent time illustrating your theory and mentioning very humbly the places where disbelief might be suspended in order to get the theory across. I never even knew or had paid attention to who Richard Lonmouth was until I read one post where you laid down this theory in another thread. I can't help but think that Mr. Lemoncloak can't be unimportant seeing as, being a minor character thus far, he is mentioned enough throughout the text that I have his name and appearances fairly well established in memory. I would love for your theory to be true.

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