Crackpot Alert: Might Lem Be Richard Lonmouth?

[Dr. Pepper]

Sorry if this has already been said, I read it all but it was late when i was reading some of it and so it may have slipped by me.

But, if Lem is Lonmouth and was friends with Robert, wouldn't he be able to recognise Gendry?

I agree with Apple, we don't know if he does or not. Arya doesn't, even though she had just been in the company of Robert for several months. Though obviously, she was in the company of fat, aged Robert. But she was around Renly who Gendry was said to favor even more. She even comments that Gendry has black hair like the king when Bella is talking about being Robert's daughter, but doesn't go further than that. Throros and Beric don't recognize the boy. The Hound also doesn't make any comment about it. No one at all who should be able to recognize a young Robert or even Renly makes a comment. Except Brienne. Brienne happened to have been in love with Renly.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Richard is Lem. Lem is Richard.

[The guy from the Vale]

I like it. It may not be true, but it might just as well be...

Another thing, delving off Crackpot Point...

If Richard really bacame a KG, he would not be allowed to marry. So why is he talking about his wife and children being murdered by Lannisters? Either he did break those vows too (possible, of course), or he's not actually talking about his own wife and children - but Elia and her children were murdered by the Lannisters. I can actually see his gripe against the Lannisters coming from back there and then, and not to give his identity away he hides his reasons behind a lie wirth some kernel of truth: He hates them for killing a wife and her children, just not his wife, but Rhaegar's...

urious and curiouser...

[Isildur's Mane]

Good point about Thoros and Beric, I forgot about them.

Though, I believe, Beric only met Robert fairly recently, when he was a fat drunk. Thoros, on the other hand, did he meet him around the Greyjoy rebellion? I can't remember.

But Renly was at court too, so they should be able to match Gendry to Renly, if they ever took notice of Renly.

Also, maybe it has been that long and Thoros has forgotten what the young Robert looks like, having only been in contact with the older, fatter Robert over the last few years.

What I guess I'm trying to say is that, if Lem is Lonmouth, then he may be able to identify Gendry, because the Robert he knew was closer to Gendry's age and looks then to what Robert became later.

But as we don't have his POV, and there isn't any reaction of "hey you look familiar" then I guess we can scrap it.

[Datepalm]

It's also a question of looking for it, I think. When Ned meets Gendry he knows he's being led to something significant and that there something about the boy, and it still takes him a bit of squinting and hmm-ing to go, yeah, ok, definitely Robert's kid. The BWB crowd also meet Bella, and no one immediately thinks 'aha, Robert's daughter!" And for that matter, Cat meets Maya Stone and it doesn't cross her mind - if it did, she would have no problem putting it together and seeing the resemblance, i'm sure, but that's rarely something you think of spontaneously.

[Ygrain]

It's also a question of looking for it, I think. When Ned meets Gendry he knows he's being led to something significant and that there something about the boy, and it still takes him a bit of squinting and hmm-ing to go, yeah, ok, definitely Robert's kid. The BWB crowd also meet Bella, and no one immediately thinks 'aha, Robert's daughter!" And for that matter, Cat meets Maya Stone and it doesn't cross her mind - if it did, she would have no problem putting it together and seeing the resemblance, i'm sure, but that's rarely something you think of spontaneously.

I think this is an excellent point - even if Thoros or Berric found something vaguely familiar about Gendry, there is nothing that would alert them to a connection to Robert or Renly, especially as, unlike Brienne, they have no emotional attachment to either.

[Minstral]

well... its interesting to say the least.

It fits in all the right places to make it go beyond mere crackpot, like the house words and the choice of Brienne, amongst other things of course. Congratulations apple, I think you may have convinced me to believe in one of your many theories once again.

[The Raging Bull]

great theory. one id be happy to see come true. iv always liked Lem

[Isildur's Mane]

It's also a question of looking for it, I think. When Ned meets Gendry he knows he's being led to something significant and that there something about the boy, and it still takes him a bit of squinting and hmm-ing to go, yeah, ok, definitely Robert's kid. The BWB crowd also meet Bella, and no one immediately thinks 'aha, Robert's daughter!" And for that matter, Cat meets Maya Stone and it doesn't cross her mind - if it did, she would have no problem putting it together and seeing the resemblance, i'm sure, but that's rarely something you think of spontaneously.

Yes that's true.

And Ygrain is right about the emotional attachment

[thelittledragonthatcould]

It would be weak if he was, most of the people we meet are of noble birth, it would be pretty boring if one of the most prominent commoners we met was a secret noble

[Slender Aimry Hill]

It would be weak if he was, most of the people we meet are of noble birth, it would be pretty boring if one of the most prominent commoners we met was a secret noble

I agree with that to some extent, and suspect Lem's main role is as moral parable, a rough but understandable freedom fighter looking for revenge for his wife and child becoming a deplorable terrorist (a new 'Hound' post-Rorge), as we have already in part seen. I imagine Brienne, Jaime or conceivably Pod will finish him off quite soon.

[Alia of the knife]

Wow! I go away for a few hours and my favorite crackpot goes electric! Dare I say it has moved a bit outside of crackpotville? :D

Anyways, nice work everyone, especially Apple for getting this out there and DP for all the added research.

I think I read the whole thread and didn't see this quote (the one that first made me say "hmmm...") Sorry if I missed it-- I started out reading on my phone :P

Like the scene with Brienne and Lady Stoneheart, where choice/choose is repeated multiple times, kiss/kisses is repeated several times here.

I'd be interested to see if there is a similar scene with skulls.

One thing that always bugged me about this is the point. I mean, every good crackpot needs a purpose right? While it seems clear that GRRM does nothing accidentally, I just didn't see how Lem's identity would move the narrative forward at all until yesterday in another thread where someone just happened to mention the attendees at Harrenhal, and what they might know. Then- BAM! Lem is significant because he might know much and more about Rhaegar, the Tourney, Lyanna and possible even R+L (I'll reserve judgement on the J part) Everyone upthread has added some great ideas as to how this could play out.I have to dash again, but color me in awe of the power of the forum brain :cheers:

Don't know how I missed this, but there is a pattern of repetition. Ser Creighton has apparently cracked Martins "kill code" in his thread and is fast becoming the new "king of Crackpots," but it makes sense if Martin still writes "old school" without all the computer gadgetry.

Anyway, I think you should create a thread for Lady G's "Top Ten," because as I said when you first posited this theory as well as a few others, it took my breath away. Just when you think you've read all there is to read, someone comes along and finds a new treasure.

This and Frozenfire3 "Tristifer" theory are probably my favorites, just for their beauty.

Again, great job Lady Gwynhyfvar.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yes that's true.

And Ygrain is right about the emotional attachment

I definitely think your question was fair though. Perhaps the issue isn't so much that there's no indication that Lem recognized Gendry, but more so that other people who, unlike Lem, we know knew the Baratheon brothers didn't recognize any of his bastards. It seems kind of odd. But again, Ned knew he was being taken to see something big and Brienne was in love with Renly, so I guess it makes sense that they'd see what others missed.

[Raining Blood Magic]

No strong evidence...yet. Still an interesting theory. Hmmm....

[Røyksopp]

Oh, to be clear, I don't think Richard killed Darry. Just that it's possible, given the Darklyn anecdote, that Rhaegar elevated Richard to the KG after Darry was killed. But it's supplementary to the main theory.

Right, I understand, I was mainly just throwing stuff out there to try and connect the whole cloak issue to Lem being Richard specifically - it does seem kind of a long shot. I just think there is something up with Lem either way, I guess, but I like the idea of Lem being Richard, potentially.

[Ser Leftwich]

Good point about Thoros and Beric, I forgot about them.

Though, I believe, Beric only met Robert fairly recently, when he was a fat drunk. Thoros, on the other hand, did he meet him around the Greyjoy rebellion? I can't remember.

But Renly was at court too, so they should be able to match Gendry to Renly, if they ever took notice of Renly.

Also, maybe it has been that long and Thoros has forgotten what the young Robert looks like, having only been in contact with the older, fatter Robert over the last few years.

What I guess I'm trying to say is that, if Lem is Lonmouth, then he may be able to identify Gendry, because the Robert he knew was closer to Gendry's age and looks then to what Robert became later.

But as we don't have his POV, and there isn't any reaction of "hey you look familiar" then I guess we can scrap it.

Thoros knows Robert all the way back to the Robellion

Thoros answered him. “Do you deny that House Clegane was built upon dead children? I saw them lay Prince Aegon and Princess Rhaenys before the Iron Throne. By rights your arms should bear two bloody infants in place of those ugly dogs.”

ASoS p. 464

[Ser Leftwich]

We do not know when Myles Mooton was knighted, but we can assume that it was before the Rhaegar/Lyanna going off event. Because 1] he was knighted by Rhaegar 2] He was a knight when he (Myles) died 3] Rhaegar was off with only a few companions

We know Richard Lonmouth was at least knighted before or at least at the ToH.

If they were no longer Rhaegar's squires, who was/were Rhaegar's squire(s) at the time of the Lyanna Incident? Who was/were his squire(s) at the Trident? At the ToH?

[Tyrus Martell]

Interesting back-up/supplementary textual evidence and theories from everyone on this, this topic's been awesome to read.

If they were no longer Rhaegar's squires, who was/were Rhaegar's squire(s) at the time of the Lyanna Incident? Who was/were his squire(s) at the Trident? At the ToH?

I don't think it's ever mentioned. Safe to assume that Myles and Richard remained by Rhaegar's side for the remainder of his life so maybe he never got around to getting another squire, or at least one significant enough to be named.

Has anyone mentioned the possibility (especially after Isildur's Mane brought up the good point about Gendry) that Lem/Richard would have reacted to Arya a little more strangely given his relationship with close Rhaegar and his distinction for being tasked with finding the KotLT (who most people say was Lyanna)? He would have known the she-wolf by appearance as he was also present at the Tourney at Harrenhal and Arya is said to be the spitting image of her dead aunt. Then again, I guess it's not realistic for everyone to just start making connections out of the blue.

[Isildur's Mane]

I definitely think your question was fair though. Perhaps the issue isn't so much that there's no indication that Lem recognized Gendry, but more so that other people who, unlike Lem, we know knew the Baratheon brothers didn't recognize any of his bastards. It seems kind of odd. But again, Ned knew he was being taken to see something big and Brienne was in love with Renly, so I guess it makes sense that they'd see what others missed.

That's true about Ned and Brienne. I didn't think of it that way at the time.

Thoros knows Robert all the way back to the Robellion

ASoS p. 464

You are right, I didn't have access to the books at the time so was going from memory. But thanks :) I'd forgotten that bit.

Interesting back-up/supplementary textual evidence and theories from everyone on this, this topic's been awesome to read.

I don't think it's ever mentioned. Safe to assume that Myles and Richard remained by Rhaegar's side for the remainder of his life so maybe he never got around to getting another squire, or at least one significant enough to be named.

Has anyone mentioned the possibility (especially after Isildur's Mane brought up the good point about Gendry) that Lem/Richard would have reacted to Arya a little more strangely given his relationship with close Rhaegar and his distinction for being tasked with finding the KotLT (who most people say was Lyanna)? He would have known the she-wolf by appearance as he was also present at the Tourney at Harrenhal and Arya is said to be the spitting image of her dead aunt. Then again, I guess it's not realistic for everyone to just start making connections out of the blue.

I think you have a point about Arya/Lyanna.

I personally believe that both Lyanna and Arya had to "grow into" their looks, but even just the knowledge of who Arya is - daughter of Ned, niece of Lyanna (and if she and Rhaegar got married, then she is his niece too) should of meant something to him.

[kiasyd]

I'm 100% into this theory... In fact, I've seen it mentioned a while ago, and I was completely sold on it since then. It's nice to see all arguments organized in this thread. :)