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Crackpot Alert: Might Lem Be Richard Lonmouth?


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<snip>

I knew there was another quote more specifically about kisses! I just couldn't remember where it was!

Ya know, we're all waiting for Mr Obvious HR to dawn the truth on us - wouldn't it be a superspiel by GRRM if this was one big red herring and the BAM moment was delivered by someone entirely else?

I think this would be hilarious. But if you think about it, someone who was close to Rhaegar might be more believable when explaining the thing with Lyanna. Someone like Lonmouth could explain it and given who he is, it might carry more weight.

Oh, and BTW, not sure if this has been mentioned in the thread but we have incoming another person who would have known Lonmouth - Jaime.

I agree that this is probably crunch time, one way or the other.

I'll say again — even if Richard isn't Lem, I think he's turning up somewhere. And even if Lem isn't Richard, he's probably "someone."

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I remember always thinking Lem broke bad after Lord Beric died his 7th death and that he claimed the Hound's helm. I always found Septon Meribald's bit about Broken Men spoke directly to Lem. It didn't end up being Lem, but it wouldn't surprise me if Lem eventually snapped.

OP & Lady G are obviously more on top of it than I am though, with textual references, so I'll drop my theory and officially sign on to this one. Good stuff.

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Do we know if Richard Lonmouth was at the Trident with Rhaegar since Myles was with JonCon?

We don't.

BUT.

I will take hit off DP's crackpot crack pipe. Now I don't think this is necessary for the line about the KG cloak to be significant, because it still ties Lem to royalty. But I think it's worth looking at.

One of the KG stories that Jaime tells Loras is about a Darklyn, up to that point the youngest KG member ever. He was given his cloak on the battlefield and died within an hour of wearing it. "He died but his king lived." I don't think it's a stretch to guess that some of those stories could hold clues to present events.

We know Myles died at the Bells but we have no clue what happened to Richard or where he fought. The length and timeline of the Trident battle is admittedly a little spotty for me, so if anyone has a more solid timeline, please pipe in.

What if Rhaegar -- in the absence of the king, the Hand and the LC -- elevated Richard to the KG at the Trident (guessing after Darry's death since Barristan survived and Lewyn's death is well-noted), but given the confusion and the outcome of the battle, it was never noted or remembered? This would have the opposite outcome as the Darklyn KG: Richard lived but his "king" died.

Now, if Richard held the office only very briefly and saw Robert kill Rhaegar, perhaps it motivated him to flee. Barristan was wounded and Darry and Lewyn were dead. Because his white cloak would have been distinctive, perhaps he dyed it at the first opportunity. As in, maybe there's some truth to the KG cloak quip after all.

And obviously the Trident makes sense as an exit point, if he ended up living in the Riverlands.

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We don't.

BUT.

I will take hit off DP's crackpot crack pipe. Now I don't think this is necessary for the line about the KG cloak to be significant, because it still ties Lem to royalty. But I think it's worth looking at.

One of the KG stories that Jaime tells Loras is about a Darklyn, up to that point the youngest KG member ever. He was given his cloak on the battlefield and died within an hour of wearing it. "He died but his king lived." I don't think it's a stretch to guess that some of those stories could hold clues to present events.

We know Myles died at the Bells but we have no clue what happened to Richard or where he fought. The length and timeline of the Trident battle is admittedly a little spotty for me, so if anyone has a more solid timeline, please pipe in.

What if Rhaegar -- in the absence of the king, the Hand and the LC -- elevated Richard to the KG at the Trident (guessing after Darry's death since Barristan survived and Lewyn's death is well-noted), but given the confusion and the outcome of the battle, it was never noted or remembered? This would have the opposite outcome as the Darklyn KG: Richard lived but his "king" died.

Now, if Richard held the office only very briefly and saw Robert kill Rhaegar, perhaps it motivated him to flee. Barristan was wounded and Darry and Lewyn were dead. Because his white cloak would have been distinctive, perhaps he dyed it at the first opportunity. As in, maybe there's some truth to the KG cloak quip after all.

And obviously the Trident makes sense as an exit point, if he ended up living in the Riverlands.

Or rather Richard Lonmouth possibly wanted to join the KG, but after Rhaegar died and Robert became king, he couldn't find it in himself to be the KG of his friend's killer, so he moved on and married.

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Or rather Richard Lonmouth possibly wanted to join the KG, but after Rhaegar died and Robert became king, he couldn't find it in himself to be the KG of his friend's killer, so he moved on and married.

The parallel of the hasty battlefield elevation is what sticks out to me, though.

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We don't.

BUT.

I will take hit off DP's crackpot crack pipe. Now I don't think this is necessary for the line about the KG cloak to be significant, because it still ties Lem to royalty. But I think it's worth looking at.

One of the KG stories that Jaime tells Loras is about a Darklyn, up to that point the youngest KG member ever. He was given his cloak on the battlefield and died within an hour of wearing it. "He died but his king lived." I don't think it's a stretch to guess that some of those stories could hold clues to present events.

We know Myles died at the Bells but we have no clue what happened to Richard or where he fought. The length and timeline of the Trident battle is admittedly a little spotty for me, so if anyone has a more solid timeline, please pipe in.

What if Rhaegar -- in the absence of the king, the Hand and the LC -- elevated Richard to the KG at the Trident (guessing after Darry's death since Barristan survived and Lewyn's death is well-noted), but given the confusion and the outcome of the battle, it was never noted or remembered? This would have the opposite outcome as the Darklyn KG: Richard lived but his "king" died.

Now, if Richard held the office only very briefly and saw Robert kill Rhaegar, perhaps it motivated him to flee. Barristan was wounded and Darry and Lewyn were dead. Because his white cloak would have been distinctive, perhaps he dyed it at the first opportunity. As in, maybe there's some truth to the KG cloak quip after all.

And obviously the Trident makes sense as an exit point, if he ended up living in the Riverlands.

Is it possible his yellow cloak is Darry's white Kingsguard cloak, which he could have taken on the Trident, and then afterwards he dyed it yellow?

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Is it possible his yellow cloak is Darry's white Kingsguard cloak, which he could have taken on the Trident, and then afterwards he dyed it yellow?

Sure, I suppose. If he was Darry's replacement, that's the cloak he'd take up anyway, I'd think.

ETA: And rather like Richard's fate is a blank and Lem's background is a blank, Darry's manner of death is a blank, other than knowing he died at the Trident. In fact, of the seven of Aerys's KG, he's the only one whose ultimate fate, its specifics, are unknown.

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I really like this whole idea, a lot.

That fucking cloak, it never occurred to it was so, I dunno, out of place; some broad shouldered soldier-man with this big, yellow, billowing cloak. There has been a whole lot of neat ideas in this thread potentially connecting Lem to Richard, but the whole line about the piss-colored cloak being washed to reveal a cloak of the Kingsguard sold me. I love the quote because the woman speaking it is kinda seeing it too: it's uncommon.

I like the idea Richard maybe changed for Robert at the last moment and killed Darry (much to Darry's surprise I am sure), and took his cloak out of respect perhaps, but then like someone else said, fled the battlefield immediately. I like thinking about this whole torn allegiance thing, because obviously, he seems to have been fond of both Robert and Rhaegar. Plus, we would have another example of Martin's whole "honor vs. what's right" theme, that he has explored wonderfully with Brienne, Jaime and Dunk (in the Sworn Sword). Maybe it was more than fondness moreso for Robert that changed his mind, maybe it was that the Baratheons were his liege lords and he was torn, maybe Rhaegar did kidnap Lyanna and force her into something and Richard knew about it, and maybe not - there could be a lot of things to work with here.

"The Choice is Yours." Haha, wow.

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I really like this whole idea, a lot.

That fucking cloak, it never occurred to it was so, I dunno, out of place; some broad shouldered soldier-man with this big, yellow, billowing cloak. There has been a whole lot of neat ideas in this thread potentially connecting Lem to Richard, but the whole line about the piss-colored cloak being washed to reveal a cloak of the Kingsguard sold me. I love the quote because the woman speaking it is kinda seeing it too: it's uncommon.

I like the idea Richard maybe changed for Robert at the last moment and killed Darry (much to Darry's surprise I am sure), and took his cloak out of respect perhaps, but then like someone else said, fled the battlefield immediately. I like thinking about this whole torn allegiance thing, because obviously, he seems to have been fond of both Robert and Rhaegar. Plus, we would have another example of Martin's whole "honor vs. what's right" theme, that he has explored wonderfully with Brienne, Jaime and Dunk (in the Sworn Sword). Maybe it was more than fondness moreso for Robert that changed his mind, maybe it was that the Baratheons were his liege lords and he was torn, maybe Rhaegar did kidnap Lyanna and force her into something and Richard knew about it, and maybe not - there could be a lot of things to work with here.

"The Choice is Yours." Haha, wow.

Oh, to be clear, I don't think Richard killed Darry. Just that it's possible, given the Darklyn anecdote, that Rhaegar elevated Richard to the KG after Darry was killed. But it's supplementary to the main theory.

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I just remembered this quote, where Lem's cloak is said to be the color of piss. It's said by the buxom red-haired inkeep in Stoney Sept (not sure her name).

Lem, is that you? Still wearing the same ratty cloak, are you? I know why you never wash it, I do. You&rsquo;re afraid all the piss will wash out and we&rsquo;ll see you&rsquo;re really a knight o&rsquo; the Kingsguard!

It's just talk, but there is that deliberate connection GRRM made with the KG and thus the royal family.

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I'm wondering if Lonmouth even fought on the Targaryen side during the Rebellion. I would assume he did because Barristan talks about how he was close friends with and a squire to Rhaegar, but the bulk of the info we get about Richard is from a semi-canon citadel entry on westeros, and it's not even sourced. I trust what the citadel has to say as I'm assuming this was valid info passed to Ran (or one of the artists) that was then passed on to us. But...there's just weird stuff about it all.

Myles was squire, Richard was squire after him and both were knighted by Rhaegar. Lonmouth was knighted by the Tourney at Harrenhal so he was no longer squiring. Still, Barristan says both Myles and Lonmouth remained close companions to Rhaegar yet he also talks about how Jon Con was his close companion, but there are issues brought up in the text to suggest the friendship between them wasn't really all that close.

We know Myles died at the Battle of the Bells but there's no mention of Richard. The Citadel is what tells us that House Lonmouth is from the Stormlands. Stannis had this conversation with Davos about choice - choice between king and liege lord, between king and brother and how he had to make the choice to choose one or the other and it was a difficult choice to make. Did Richard Lonmouth have to make the same choice? Did he have to choose between his liege lord/drinking buddy and his king and prince/knight buddy?

It's at Stoney Sept, at the Peach Inn, when Tansy (the buxom red-haired inkeep) drops the kingsuard line to Lem. The same inn that Robert was said to have enjoyed all of the ladies, especially Bella's mother. At the Tourney of Harrenhal, Richard and Robert are brought up in tandem, performing the same activities. First, playing a drinking game and second swearing to find the Knight of the Laughing Tree. It's easy from there to imagine them both previously drinking together before the Battle of the Bells.

Just some thoughts. Did he make the wrong choice? Did the choice break him? Is he not mentioned again in the story because he wasn't fighting alongside the Targaryens but alongside his liege lord? Could Lonmouth have been apart of the loyalist houses from the Stormlands that was defeated at Summerhal, and then switched sides?

Lem also has a serious hard on for the Lannisters. He was the first to draw a blade on the Hound in the cave. Later he was all about catching the Kingslayer. He was all for Brienne being hung for being a Lannister woman, and invoked the memory of his dead wife and daughter. He's also the one who forced Brienne to make a choice as she was still trying to plead for Hyle and Pod before Lem took the rope and yanked her up where she finally made her choice.

I'm still curious about this wife and daughter. There seems to be no indication of when or where they died. Yet it's brought up when Brienne is being hung, and soon after Lem had called her the Kingslayer's whore. Is there any reason his wife and daughter had been in KL when it was sacked? Or is it more likely they were in the Riverlands when it was sacked? Either way, it does seem like their deaths were associated with Lannister sacking.

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Sorry if this has already been said, I read it all but it was late when i was reading some of it and so it may have slipped by me.

But, if Lem is Lonmouth and was friends with Robert, wouldn't he be able to recognise Gendry?

Good question. Without being inside his head, we don't know whether he recognizes him or not. Thoros and Beric should recognize him, too, having been at court with Robert. Do they?

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