A Dragonfly Among the Reeds - Is Howland Reed the Grandson of Duncan the Small?

[Bluesnow]

Me reading:

"Wow... I really like this theory!!!"

Me reading Jojen paste:

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!! Dx"

In all seriousness... great read... even if not true I learned some things I didn't know before.

I now I need to make dinner because people are getting hungry and I held off because I would die if I didn't finish reading your post xD

[MadFox]

I am wondering if we really know if Jenny and Duncan had any children before SummerHall? From my understanding they did not, and was it not stated that she was with child during SummerHall?

[Jojen Dayne-Reed]

This would also add to the reasons Howleen and Asha Dayne would need to hide the fact that they had a kid. Daughter marrying the hero of the tower of joy (even a reed) isn't THAT terrible. But marrying a Targ who might claim to have better title then Robert, during his more stabby days? That is bad juju. Better to hide it. Pretend like nothing's going on in the neck.

Also I love this. Well done.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Guess you should change your name to Jojen Dayne-Reed-Targ now?

[Jojen Dayne-Reed]

Guess you should change your name to Jojen Dayne-Reed-Targ now?

Well played sir.

(Oh wait. Grandpa gave up the Targ. So I can't. Not officially.)

[Duir]

Another secret Targ theory - and I kinda like it!

That exact sentence about a dragonflies among the reeds has been bugging me since I reread the Egg and Dunk novellas a while ago. So very well done even though I'm not really convinced. Another sentence that stayed with me is:

"The Hand's pavilion was half a mile from the castle, in the shade of a spreading elm tree. A dozen cows were cropping at the grass nearby." About bloodraven's pavillion in Mystery Knight. GRRM sure does like his elm trees, especially considering Dunk's shield.

Anyhow, back on subject. The last line about "it looks nothing like a dragon" makes me think about the Targaryen looks hysteria - the importance of it and the opposite - how you really can't trust looks to be evidence for someone being a targsie.

[Ghost's Shadow]

Lol. :P

It's a nice thought, this thread. Looking forward to how it's going to go together with the Ashara thought.

[Frey family reunion]

You had me at dragonfly amongst the Reeds

[Dragon Roast]

Nicely done. It makes narrative sense that Howland Reed and his kin are woven into the history of Westeros and ASOIAF. This theory makes a nice weave and is plausible from a number of different angles. I think some elements will turn out to be proven, especially the idea of a dragonfly amongst the Reeds . Other, like the paste, I think are far less likely. Still, nicely done.

This helps to explain why Duncan was at Summerhall. What I still don't get is the line "The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses". Does Barristan mean that Duncan's abdication led to the Mad Kind and RR or was there another conflict. It will be fun to find out,

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Another secret Targ theory - and I kinda like it!

That exact sentence about a dragonflies among the reeds has been bugging me since I reread the Egg and Dunk novellas a while ago. So very well done even though I'm not really convinced. Another sentence that stayed with me is:

"The Hand's pavilion was half a mile from the castle, in the shade of a spreading elm tree. A dozen cows were cropping at the grass nearby." About bloodraven's pavillion in Mystery Knight. GRRM sure does like his elm trees, especially considering Dunk's shield.

Anyhow, back on subject. The last line about "it looks nothing like a dragon" makes me think about the Targaryen looks hysteria - the importance of it and the opposite - how you really can't trust looks to be evidence for someone being a targsie.

Jojeen & Meera don't look like Targs. Do they?

Nicely done. It makes narrative sense that Howland Reed and his kin are woven into the history of Westeros and ASOIAF. This theory makes a nice weave and is plausible from a number of different angles. I think some elements will turn out to be proven, especially the idea of a dragonfly amongst the Reeds . Other, like the paste, I think are far less likely. Still, nicely done.

This helps to explain why Duncan was at Summerhall. What I still don't get is the line "The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses". Does Barristan mean that Duncan's abdication led to the Mad King and RR or was there another conflict. It will be fun to find out.

That's exactly what he means.

[DolorousRed]

Nicely done. It makes narrative sense that Howland Reed and his kin are woven into the history of Westeros and ASOIAF. This theory makes a nice weave and is plausible from a number of different angles. I think some elements will turn out to be proven, especially the idea of a dragonfly amongst the Reeds . Other, like the paste, I think are far less likely. Still, nicely done.

This helps to explain why Duncan was at Summerhall. What I still don't get is the line "The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses". Does Barristan mean that Duncan's abdication led to the Mad Kind and RR or was there another conflict. It will be fun to find out,

It makes no sense. You don't need any explanation as to why prince Duncan was at Summerhall except the reason that the whole court was there to try to do something involving hatching dragon eggs. Jenny of Oldstones is probably called that because she's from the area around Oldstones, which is pretty far from Greywater Watch. If Howland Reed was a Targaryen he probably wouldn't look like a little crannogman, and it would have been mentioned. If prince Duncan had married someone else, Aerys never would have been king. There's obviously more to the story, but sometimes a dragonfly is just a dragonfly.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

What I still don't get is the line "The Prince of Dragonflies loved Jenny of Oldstones so much he cast aside a crown, and Westeros paid the bride price in corpses". Does Barristan mean that Duncan's abdication led to the Mad Kind and RR or was there another conflict. It will be fun to find out,

We've still missing the Blackfyre Rebellions three, four and maybe it even caused number five, aka the War of the Ninepenny Kings, late in Egg's reign. Duncan's choice of bride could easily fit number four or five from a timeline perspective.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Does Barristan mean that Duncan's abdication led to the Mad Kind and RR or was there another conflict. It will be fun to find out,

It could be either one. I actually asked that precise question in a rough draft of the post, but I cut it for length. Aegon V's reign was described as "troubled", so he probably had several smallish rebelions to put down, but yes, Barristan could have been referring to Robert's Rebellion as well.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Probably, he was Maynard Plumm, there's some evidence. By Dunk, he looked "less autentic" each time, and he spoke like BR.

Maynard Plumm also responded to a joke of another man quite comically, if he really was BR:

[ Dunk] "We'd all be bastard sons of old King Aegon if half these tales were true."

"And who's to say we're not?" Ser Maynard quipped.

That makes the possibility he's actually Bloodraven (and thus a son of old King Aegon) all the more funnier.

Well, we have no real idea who perished in Summerhall.

Egg, for certain. His heir, Duncan the Small. And Ser Duncan the Tall. There might have been others.

I am wondering if we really know if Jenny and Duncan had any children before SummerHall? From my understanding they did not, and was it not stated that she was with child during SummerHall?

Duncan and Jenny would have been married for a while at that point, they could even have been grand parents, it would fit in the time line. We simply don't know much about Jenny and Duncan, except for that they married, and that their marriage was reason enough to deny Duncan the throne. Duncan the Small would have been born before 233 AL, when Egg came into his throne. Seeing as how younger brother Jaehaerys had a son who was born in 243 AL, he must have been married in 242 or sooner (but since I believe Rhaella was a year or two older, Jaehaerys was probably married a year or two before 242 AL). This would mean Duncan was probably married a few years before Jaehaerys, being a few years older, this would only be logical. Any first born child of Duncan and Jenny would have been roughly about Aerys' age, who was 16 in 259 AL, when Summerhal happened.

[Musashisamurai]

It makes no sense. You don't need any explanation as to why prince Duncan was at Summerhall except the reason that the whole court was there to try to do something involving hatching dragon eggs. Jenny of Oldstones is probably called that because she's from the area around Oldstones, which is pretty far from Greywater Watch. If Howland Reed was a Targaryen he probably wouldn't look like a little crannogman, and it would have been mentioned. If prince Duncan had married someone else, Aerys never would have been king. There's obviously more to the story, but sometimes a dragonfly is just a dragonfly.

Greywaterw watch moves. Your argument is invalid

[Mithras]

If there were dark rumours about Jenny like Shiera, then we have another reason why Duncan is removed from succession. The common folk despise sorcery. They blamed everything on Bloodraven ahile he was serving as the Hand.

And I also believe that Jenny was some kind of a woods witch, probably seduced Duncan the Small via magic/potion.

[Kienn]

Gonna add on to this the possibility that Ned's mother could be Howland's aunt, meaning Ned/Lyanna also have fairly recent "targ" blood. This could link to why Ned had a "weaker" claim than Robert for the throne, since the line his blood came from was excluded from succession... AND another reason why Rhaegar was interested in Lyanna...

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ETA: Can't forget obscure quotes to make things legit

How would you like to marry your cousin, the Lord Robert?

Sansa ASoS

Could also have been said to Lyanna when betrothed to Bob.

---

I'll at least find it kind of cute if "Egg" turns out to be everyone's Great(-great)-grandfather, as if he hatched into the whole saga... Just need to have Aegon V's third son to have a daughter that married into the Lannisters? Who was Tywin's mommy? So Aegon V's four children lead into the 4 main houses of the series... Or maybe that just makes it lamer? idk

ETA: I also need to counter this

Q
Jojenpaste.
A
King's blood.

Kin's Blood (if eaten at all)

[Mithras]

While it is slightly vomitocious if it turns out essentially all the "main" characters are "secret targs"

I have no problem with that. In fact, introducing completely new characters into the picture after 5 giant books would be vomitocius for me. And without techniques like genealogical DNA tests, people's identities are always subject to speculation.

[Dragon Roast]

I wonder if some of the details in TPatQ might fit into this theory.

There is mention of the Isle of Faces in the book.

Addam Velaryon landed there on Seasmoke to seek council. The battle between Prince Daemon Targaryen and Aemond One-Eye happened above the God's Eye.

Aemond's paramour, Alys Rivers witnessed the event with a baby in her belly. They spent much of their time together talking about dreams and prophecy.

It is not revealed where she went and who her descendants are. Perhaps Jenny? Perhaps the woods witch? Or the Reeds?

And then we do not know where Nettles went with Sheepstealer, but the singers say that where ever it was, Prince Deamon went with her. I wonder if they spent some time in The Neck.

[opaltiger]

Re: the Tower of Joy - Daemon Blackfyre fights a duel with a Kingsguard knight (Gwayne Corbray, if memory serves) at the Battle of Redgrass Field. I think that's fairly conclusive evidence that the Kingsguard are allowed to harm those of Targaryen blood under certain circumstances (like, say, being in open rebellion). Doesn't Baelor say that they're specifically prohibited from harming a "prince of the blood"? Maybe that's the requirement. Otherwise Robert himself would have qualified, which seems unlikely.

But on the whole this makes more sense then I was expecting it to. Good job.