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A Dragonfly Among the Reeds - Is Howland Reed the Grandson of Duncan the Small?


Ibbison from Ibben

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Great OP, I feel like the Jojen Paste was somewhat pushed as a punch to all non believers, because it isn't really necessary to the whole scheme of things..


..it works, it is oiled and well entangled.


My appreciations, hope it will be revealed to be the truth.


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Re: the Tower of Joy - Daemon Blackfyre fights a duel with a Kingsguard knight (Gwayne Corbray, if memory serves) at the Battle of Redgrass Field. I think that's fairly conclusive evidence that the Kingsguard are allowed to harm those of Targaryen blood under certain circumstances (like, say, being in open rebellion). Doesn't Baelor say that they're specifically prohibited from harming a "prince of the blood"? Maybe that's the requirement. Otherwise Robert himself would have qualified, which seems unlikely.

But on the whole this makes more sense then I was expecting it to. Good job.

I had not taken that duel into account. Nice catch. Perhaps that's why the duel took so long, and why Corbray lost - he was fighting to defend himself and disarm Deamon, while Daemon fought to win. Or perhaps Corbray had special orders from the king that released him from having to avoid harming Deamon. Perhaps the 3 KG at the ToJ took their vows more literally than Corbray. Or perhaps you're right and this is a hole in my hypothesis.

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Great OP, I feel like the Jojen Paste was somewhat pushed as a punch to all non believers, because it isn't really necessary to the whole scheme of things..

..it works, it is oiled and well entangled.

My appreciations, hope it will be revealed to be the truth.

I myself lean against the Jojenpaste theory, but I included the interpretation just in case. (And because I could do it with just a couple words.) And you're right, the rest of the hypothesis doesn't depend on it.

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  • 3 months later...

Probably, he was Maynard Plumm, there's some evidence. By Dunk, he looked "less autentic" each time, and he spoke like BR.

He used glamours, for sure. No need to question your postulation, just because the sentence "Bloodraven used a glamour" didn't appear. It was made more than obvious.

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I had not taken that duel into account. Nice catch. Perhaps that's why the duel took so long, and why Corbray lost - he was fighting to defend himself and disarm Deamon, while Daemon fought to win. Or perhaps Corbray had special orders from the king that released him from having to avoid harming Deamon. Perhaps the 3 KG at the ToJ took their vows more literally than Corbray. Or perhaps you're right and this is a hole in my hypothesis.

I still think there is a tad bit of something to your original statement. Butterwell about pooped his pants when he learned he had Egg in his presence, even though Egg was way on down the line of succession at that point.

It could have at least distracted the Sword of the Morning momentarily...

So then, can you come to any conclusions about how this might have a six degree seperation between Howland, Summerhall and Rhaegar's visits there? I love your theory, would be awesome if you could noodle that one, because I am way too daft to even try!

Let me give you an idea how daft, and then I might have to post this over in the "craziest crackpot" thread: I think there are tunnels under Westeros and beyond the Wall, and that's how Lyanna and Rhaegar ultimately got to Dorne. The Starks, CotF, crannogs et al know about these tunnels.

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I still think there is a tad bit of something to your original statement. Butterwell about pooped his pants when he learned he had Egg in his presence, even though Egg was way on down the line of succession at that point.

It could have at least distracted the Sword of the Morning momentarily...

Everything about the fight at the ToJ depends critically on what the KG's precise orders from Rhaegar were, and of course we don't know that yet. Many interpretations are possible. I was struck very strongly, however, by Baelor Breakspear's tactics in the Trial of Seven at Ashford. It would be a clever bit of foreshadowing if the same situation cropped up again.

So then, can you come to any conclusions about how this might have a six degree seperation between Howland, Summerhall and Rhaegar's visits there? I love your theory, would be awesome if you could noodle that one, because I am way too daft to even try!

I'm more interested in the idea of Targs on a Mission - that Daenys the Dreamer's original vision included the second attack by the Others, and that selected members of House Targaryen (Aegon I, G Q Alysanne, Daemon the UberTarg, Bloodraven, Aerys I, Egg, Aemon the Maester, Rhaegar) have been reacting to the prophesy with the intent of preparing to defeat the Others.

Let me give you an idea how daft, and then I might have to post this over in the "craziest crackpot" thread: I think there are tunnels under Westeros and beyond the Wall, and that's how Lyanna and Rhaegar ultimately got to Dorne. The Starks, CotF, crannogs et al know about these tunnels.

I can't say a support that idea, I'm afraid. That's a lot of tunnels to dig and maintain. I don't see why R & L would have any problems getting to the ToJ by horse, especially if pursuers thought they were handed for KL.

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There is a celtic folklore that made me think of this thread. It's entitled The Wasp, the Winged Needle and the Spider. In the tale a younger brother is given three gifts by strangers which he later uses to help rescue his older brother from a giant and his giant eagles:



A walnut which contained a wasp with a diamond stinger,


A hollow acorn which contained a spider, and


a dragonfly being held in a cage made from Reeds. (and for some reason the word Reeds was capitalized in the story.)



Here is the link:



ETA fixed the link



http://livinglibraryblog.com/?p=833


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There is a celtic folklore that made me think of this thread. It's entitled The Wasp, the Winged Needle and the Spider. In the tale a younger brother is given three gifts by strangers which he later uses to help rescue his older brother from a giant and his giant eagles:

A walnut which contained a wasp with a diamond stinger,

A hollow acorn which contained a spider, and

a dragonfly being held in a cage made from Reeds. (and for some reason the word Reeds was capitalized in the story.)

Here is the link:

ETA fixed the link

http://livinglibraryblog.com/?p=833

Thanks for the link. Dragonfly = Winged Needle!

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  • 4 weeks later...

As wary as I am about everybody is a secret Targ theories (in addition to the only one that matters at least), I really can't help but like this theory. It's well thought out, and most of it is believable and makes sense. I jump off at the end with Meera's potential matchmaking. But even the Jojenpaste as king's blood doesn't turn me off. I mean, Jojen and Meera weren't sent by their father solely out of concern for Ned's children weren't they? They must have stronger ties to all of this other than their dad got into a fight at the side of Bran's dad right? This theory at least gives them more reason to do what they are doing and putting their lives in peril.


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We know from SSM that the Kingsguard are honor bound only to protect the king. The King can choose to extend this protection to other members of the family. I think chances are pretty slim that Howland would be included in this. As you said, The Knight of the Laughing Tree is "No friend of his(Aerys)". Granted that most of us consider the Knight of the Laughing Tree to be Lyanna, perhaps Aerys considered it a challenge to his authority by someone else he recently met of small stature, assuming your theory is correct, that is.

Either way, nice theory, very nice thread =)

The KG are sworn to protect all the kings family, in the tourney at Ashford, Baelor knows the KG in the fight will not touch him because of this and they don't.

If Howland Reed is a descendant from a Young Duncan Targaryen it would have had to be a very close one because he is close to the age of Rhaegar which would share the same great grandfather maybe even Aegon woulda been Rhaegar's GGF and Howlands GF i don't buy any of that theory. Everyone would have known who he was and Jenny would not have been refereed to as Jenny Oldstones if she belonged to the main family in the Neck no matter how low they were looked upon which was very low.

Many commoners carry a name from the area the come from ( Ser Arlan of Pennytree) so i do buy the part about them all being Mudd men and some probably carried the oldstones part perhaps her family was employed at the oldstones castle.

I would think that anyone who escaped the invasion went into hiding in the Neck and carried these names on.

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The KG are sworn to protect all the kings family, in the tourney at Ashford, Baelor knows the KG in the fight will not touch him because of this and they don't.

I can't find the SSM, but barristan says this in one of his chapters:

"The first duty of the Kingsguard was to defend the king from harm or threat. The white knights were sworn to obey the king's commands as well, to keep his secrets, counsel him when counsel was requested and keep silent when it was not, serve his pleasure and defend his name and honor. Strictly speaking, it was purely the king's choice whether or not to extend Kingsguard protection to others, even those of royal blood. Some kings thought it right and proper to dispatch Kingsguard to serve and defend their wives and children, siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins of greater and lesser degree, and occasionally even their lovers, mistresses, and bastards. But others preferred to use household knights and men-at-arms for those purposes, whilst keeping their seven as their own personal guard, never far from their sides."

So no. They swear to protect and obey the king. If the king says protect his family, they will.

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  • 1 month later...

Just a thought, couldn't they have had a daughter who married a Reed crannogman and beget the current line of Reeds through her and her (Reed) husband?


Also, I prefer to think Howland survived the ToJ because of his prowess.


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This is a great theory! It lends weight to why Howland Reed has been kept from the narrative for so long. It stands well on its own, but I think it also works well with the recent Howland + Ashara theory. Put together there is an arc bookended by scandalous marriages, justifying Howland's long retreat into the neck. When he finally enters the narrative, he might be the catalyst that ties all the major threads together.


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Thanks. I will admit that I'm not a fan of the Howland + Ashara Dayne stuff at all, though. Those theories seem to be merely wishful thinking about Ashara being alive. They have no other explanatory value.



Still, Howland Reed is one of the great information withholders in the story, along with Barristan Selmy, Genna Lannister-Frey, Bloodraven, Marwyn the Mage, and of course Varys. Giving him another reason to remain hidden in the Neck helps explain his (dramatically necessary) absence.


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Just a thought, couldn't they have had a daughter who married a Reed crannogman and beget the current line of Reeds through her and her (Reed) husband?

Also, I prefer to think Howland survived the ToJ because of his prowess.

I'm assuming by "they" you mean Aegon V and his wife, right?

Well, we knew that they had 3 children (Duncan, Jaehaerys, and Rhaelle) for a long time. Egg'sThirdSon, revealed by Barristan Selmy in aDwD, came as a surprise, so I'm not counting on another. Not to mention the fact that the whole "Dragonfly" quote depends on the link running through Duncan the Small.

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